Greek men would watch boys, approach them, become their tutors

Stop trying to impose our modern concepts of sexuality onto a different historical period.

Hyacinth was literally one of the most important gods in Sparta.

Laugh it up, brainlets. Meanwhile, I will rely on 4th c. BCE primary sources: Xenophon's Constitution of the Lacedaemonians & Plato's Symposium. Later Classical texts by Plutarch and Aelian also support my statement that boy fucking was illegal in Sparta.

If you want to imagine yourself in a pederastic relationship, then you should focus on Thebes. In Sparta, the law would require you to go into exile or commit suicide, but Boeotians were (A) to stupid to enforce criminal law, and (B) wholly given to base desire and lecherous behaviour.

>BCE
Just stop.

t. in the year of muh precious lord

cry harder

>BCE

cmon man..

I'm an atheist and even I know that "BCE/CE" is arbitrary retarded nonsense, because by /retaining/ the numbering convention, it is /ahistorical/. The numbering scheme is kept intact while Jesus is shooed out of the room. "Well then how come we have years like this?", a child wise beyond his years asks, blowing the whole idiocy to smithereens.

>dude check your patriarchy
>its 800BC i mean come on check the previous year
nothing has changed user. They were just as western, if not more so, then we are. Which means hating faggots.

>t. has no degree, never been to Sparta
keep dreaming about cocks flying around ancient greece you homolord. Now, tell me, why was Socrates put on trial for being a faggot like OP, found not guilty, and the executed anyway?

>BCE

> Later Classical texts by Plutarch and Aelian also support my statement that boy fucking was illegal in Sparta.

penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/plutarch/lives/lycurgus*.html

> 1 When the boys reached this age, they were favoured with the society of lovers from among the reputable young men.

And of course, the Spartan wedding custom of dressing up women as men before sex for the first time is an awfully strange thing to do if male on male sexual contact was absolutely forbidden and never done.

Not to mention of course, that it was a fairly common Dorian rite, and the Spartans always played up their Dorian heritage.
books.google.com/books?id=1ha9GgWNmy0C&pg=PA153&lpg=PA153&dq=Dorian initiation rites&source=bl&ots=MMFEq8q-Fp&sig=xZ-Hj3_2LZtFoZ0uD4_q1R4pdv4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjaiMO3z6PXAhVpzoMKHaM4AwUQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=Dorian initiation rites&f=false

more lies blown out of some faggot's cock-filled mouth. Bet you'd swallow anything if it told you fags weren't the worthless sores of humanity.

>BCE

>BCE

> don’t use BC/AD its racist!
> use BCE/CE instead
> it’s the the exact same dating system…

>parents were ok with this

Source?

You're an atheist yet you still refer to Jesus as your Lord? lmao, look at you, a brainlet.

You're wrong if you think "common era" is a weird and unpopular term. There are hundreds of millions of people in places like China who use the term "common era" rather than call it "in the year of our Lord". Deal with it, "atheist".

>all those faggots triggered by BCE

reading the posts of faggots here makes me realise maybe burning homosexuals wasnt such a bad idea and were the uncivilised ones for being against it

Xenophon sent his sons to the agoge.

>penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/e/roman/texts/plutarch/lives/lycurgus*.html

Hah look at you, a brainlet, misunderstanding Plutarch. You can't raise a valid argument against the Spartans, even when you use that scandal-loving Boeotian who wrote 500~ years later.

If you read the rest of the text you cited, you'll see that the "lovers" are tutors, father-figures, and generally older citizens interested in ensuring that the youths develop into noble adults.

Again, try reading Plutarch. In the text "The Ancient Customs of the Spartans", Plutarch says:

"Affectionate regard for boys of good character was permissible, but embracing them was held to be disgraceful, on the ground that the affection was for the body and not for the mind. Any man against whom complaint was made of any disgraceful embracing was deprived of all civic rights for life."

We can go further and find other such citations from later texts. I have proven you wrong with contemporary 4th c. BCE texts, and I have proven you wrong even when using the texts of a Boeotian who wrote many centuries later.

The point stands that if you want to be molested in ancient greece, you should move to Thebes.

You are a stupid person and the rhetoric of your first paragraph fails, though you think it succeeds, because the Jesus stuff is still pregnant in the numbering convention itself whether one does the latin stuff or not.. Either do away with that altogether or don't. This is the weak mistake of the PC "BCE/CE" stuff.

The point is that both the BC/AD (naming convention) AND the numbering convention should, if one wants to be careful, be either thrown out together in favor of something else, or else not at all, if one wants consistency. But in practice, the societies that use the numbering convention don't want to get rid of that component for very obvious and practical reasons, so the next go-to for PC culture was to partially chip away at the "BC/AD" convention, creating the ahistorical stupidity to which I correctly refer.

Just compare cults, fake meme religions and isolated societies like North Korea which use Juche calendars and other weird stuff. It may be inconvenient for them to convert to outside society, but at least they have their own internal consistency.

As long as the Jesus-tier numbering convention is used, it contains within itself a pregnant "why?" And the real answer must be something like "well we think a very long time ago a very important guy named Jesus was probably maybe born around that time." To half-ass it as PC culture has tried is idiotic; literal communists have done a better job.

What you fail to mention is that XENOPHON SPECIFICALLY STATED THAT SUCH BEHAVIOUR WAS ILLEGAL IN SPARTA.

"I think I ought to say something also about intimacy with boys, since this matter also has a bearing on education. In other Greek states, for instance among the Boeotians, man and boy live together, like married people; elsewhere, among the Eleians, for example, consent is won by means of favours. Some, on the other hand, entirely forbid suitors to talk with boys.

The customs instituted by Lycurgus were opposed to all of these. If someone, being himself an honest man, admired a boy's soul and tried to make of him an ideal friend without reproach and to associate with him, he approved, and believed in the excellence of this kind of training. But if it was clear that the attraction lay in the boy's outward beauty, he banned the connexion as an abomination; and thus he caused lovers to abstain from boys no less than parents abstain from sexual intercourse with their children and brothers and sisters with each other."

Xenophon's Constitution of the Lacedaemonians, Ch 2.

Pederast is a made up word by pedophiles

>gays we wuz themselves as pedophiles

really makes you think

You fail, and your butt-hurt is evident.

The use of the number is a practical consideration. The stripping of the title "Our Lord" is of theological and general philosophical concern.

Let me go further, though: YOU have utterly failed to respond to the fact that over a billion people use "common era" and "before common era". So deal with it, I'm using a popular and completely practical and valid approach to dating.

There will come a time when hebrew mythology and the related dating system is totally discarded. Until then, for practical reasons, I will continue to use the popular and philosophically consistent "CE" and "BCE".

I don't care if you want to refer to Jesus as "Our Lord", really, but don't pretend like you're not a brainlet.

>Something illegal means it doesn't happen guise!

financialexpress.com/india-news/law-against-open-defecation-shaurya-forces-likely-to-arrest-open-defecators-in-mandsaur-district/299386/

I guess nobody shits in the street in India, IT'S ILLEGAL!

Read a book and be less of a niggerfaggot.

Do you think Ancient Spartans and Modern Indians live in similar societies and face the same degree of scrutiny?

Unless you want to totally do away with all the ancient source material on Ancient Sparta, you are left with one massive problem: Spartans lived highly regulated and communal lives.

The idea that Spartan citizens were all free to ignore the law and cavort with children like some ill-raised Boeotian is LAUGHABLE.

>Do you think Ancient Spartans and Modern Indians live in similar societies and face the same degree of scrutiny?
No, but that hardly helps your argument.

>Unless you want to totally do away with all the ancient source material on Ancient Sparta, you are left with one massive problem:
What ancient source material? Xenophon's clearly biased account, some 4 centuries after the reforms of Lycurgus supposedly happened, assuming there was a historical Lycurgus in the first place? Polybius who is mostly drawing on Xenophon anyway? The "ancient source material" for this as well as literally everything else ever, is enormously thin, and to state something didn't happen because ONE witness says, not that it didn't happen, but that it was illegal, is dumb as fuck.

>Spartans lived highly regulated and communal lives.
They also were supposedly encouraged to lie, cheat, and steal every chance they got, and the agoge system promoted not getting caught as opposed to not actually doing stuff that was illegal. The story of the boy who stole the fox comes to mind. And that old aphorism of "No spartan can resist a bribe", which is probably borne out from the fact that they routinely failed to live up to their ideals.

>The idea that Spartan citizens were all free to ignore the law and cavort with children like some ill-raised Boeotian is LAUGHABLE.
Seriously, what is your bizarre fixation with Boetians? I mean for fuck's sake, they've been dead as a distinct sub-group for millenia. Do you really think that everyone who disagrees with you, among which are you know, actual published historians, are all part of some secretive Boetian conspiracy to slander Lacedaemonia?

t. boetian

>What ancient source material?

I gave you two contemporary sources for 4th c. Sparta, and one of them even spent time in Sparta and sent his children there!

You clearly didn't read Xenophon's text, because you think he's only talking about Lykourgos. He's talking about the Sparta of his day, even in the quote itself that should be obvious because Xenophon compares contemporary Spartan law and society with places like Boeotia and Elis.

Plato in the Symposium shares similar thoughts on the matter.

So cry all you want, but you've been given 2 contemporary sources for 4th century Sparta. In opposition to that, you've given me... nothing but a misrepresentation of Plutarch, who loved scandals and wrote 500~ years later but still doesn't support your account.

All you have is a desperate hope that Spartans buggered boys with gay abandon like mud-farming Boeotian savages, and some misrepresentations of an actual Boeotian who wrote many, many generations later.

>Taught to lie, cheat and steal

Total mischaracterisation and taken entirely out of context. At no point does the primary source material talk about Spartans being encouraged to "lie, cheat and steal" in general violation of the law and cultural practices. In fact, it is a product of their lives being so regulated that they had to undergo the agoge, which required that behaviour in a specific context.

It is perhaps your next point that proves you are wrong: that old aphorism of "No spartan can resist a bribe". Ahh, that old claim, which only applied to Spartans... WHO WERE NOT OT AT SPARTA. Because life in Sparta was so highly regulated and monitored!

You are either a liar or, may the gods forgive me, a Theban sympathiser.

>Muh precious Boeotians

Boeotians still exist; I have been to modern Thebes and it is a dump of a town that should NEVER have been rebuilt. "Boeotian" today is a byword for brainlet, and they earnt that accolade. You are probably a Theban sympathiser, confess it now.

You stated that a LAW existed, not how society actually functioned, and then used the lack of actual documentation (implicitly admitting that yes, this is entirely drawn from Xenophon's laconophile account), means that therefore, it never happened.

Similarly, I just "proved" that street shitting doesn't happen in India, because it's illegal. If you can't see the difference between the two, you're either retarded or a shitposter. While we're talking about contemporary sources, why exactly are you ignoring Herodotus? You know, with how Spartans never actually stick to their ideals? Because it doesn't conform to your narrative?

>nothing but a misrepresentation of Plutarch, who loved scandals and wrote 500~ years later but still doesn't support your account.
Learn to read.

> At no point does the primary source material talk about Spartans being encouraged to "lie, cheat and steal" in general violation of the law and cultural practices.
You bet it does.

>It is perhaps your next point that proves you are wrong: that old aphorism of "No spartan can resist a bribe". Ahh, that old claim, which only applied to Spartans... WHO WERE NOT OT AT SPARTA. Because life in Sparta was so highly regulated and monitored!
Wrong.
books.google.com/books?id=Q-EaG41qyigC&pg=PA438&lpg=PA438&dq=Herodotus no spartan can resist a bribe&source=bl&ots=Kv-iemtrA5&sig=0JkYygk-VwT34K4Gf1qcXIWCHms&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif19iriqTXAhWMx4MKHUSBDvgQ6AEIMDAB#v=onepage&q=Herodotus no spartan can resist a bribe&f=false

>More ranting about Thebans and boetians.
I'm an American. As far as I know, I have no Greek ancestry, as my mother's side of the family came from Pommerania and my father's side from the Ukraine. You've stated no less than 3 times in this post alone accusing me of being a Boetian because I dared disagree with you (Seriously, are you saying guys like Thomas Scanion are also Thebans?). You're either a shitposter or a retard, and I am done responding to you.

You are confused, which is unsurprising for a literal Boeotian.

I gave you multiple sources over hundreds of years, including sources from 4th c. BCE, showing that boy fucking was illegal in Sparta, was unacceptable in Sparta, and would result in serious penalties in Sparta.

Let me show you this yet again:

Xenophon specifically points out that Boeotians fuck children like regular people fuck wives, but that it was BANNED in Sparta and that Spartans in abstained from molesting their children. See the quote in .

Plato's Symposium notes "now here and in Lacedaemon the rules about love are perplexing, but in most cities they are simple and easily intelligible" and indicates that in places like Boeotia and Elis, they are accepting of any sort of love, whereas under the more perplexing rules one is to love the soul but not to love fucking children like some savage Boeotian eel-monger.

Then, I gave you a quote from Plutarch:

"Affectionate regard for boys of good character was permissible, but embracing them was held to be disgraceful, on the ground that the affection was for the body and not for the mind. Any man against whom complaint was made of any disgraceful embracing was deprived of all civic rights for life."

I also pointed to Aelian, so let me get you that quote:

"Spartan love has nothing shameful about it. For whether a boy is rash enough to submit to abuse or a lover dares to go too far, neither of them profits by having brought dishonour to Sparta. They either abandon their country or, what is more serious, life itself." - Historical Miscellany.

>learn to read Plutarch
I read well enough not to misrepresent him at every turn. If you have a relevant quote, I'm all ears.

>Herodotus quote
Lmao, that's a story of a Spartan who refused to be bribed WHILE IN SPARTA. You played yourself.

Further, note that he had a private residence; Spartans under 30 lived communally.

>Racial heritage
A likely story, Boeotian. Jog on.

Japan also had fuckbois they kept around as well. Notably Nobunaga with mori ranmaru ... I guess it is something the wealthy did since noone could draw a realistic pornographic image at the time

>Any man against whom complaint was made of any disgraceful embracing was deprived of all civic rights for life."
The pedos today have it easy

>illegal in certain states like Sparta

Sparta was literally the most notorious place in Greece for men fucking young boys, so much so that other City States were like "holy fuck dial it down guys"

>The term "Common Era" can be found in English as early as 1708,[6] and became more widely used in the mid-19th century by Jewish academics

really makes you think

>some secretive Boetian conspiracy to slander Lacedaemonia?

SHHH DONT REVEAL US

t. Boetian conspirator

fuck boetians holy shit

>parents allowed a thing that's perfectly fine
whoah how outrageous

>boy fucking

yeah maybe actual fucking, but it was against the law to not "love a boy" though, you had to pay a fucking fine, and if a boy hadn't found a man to love him by age 12 he was disgraced. Now that is some real homosexual pedophile shit.

>implying there wasn't some boipucci fucking going on in this bizarre arrangement

Also Hycinthus, literally the divine hero of Spartan pederasty

you don't get it, at all

most, if not all, of these men fucking boys were married and had children.
they didn't have the same notions about sexuality as us, a regular 30 year would have been perceived as more of a "deviant" for chosing celibacy and no children than for having sex with boys while being married and a father

>on the ground that the affection was for the body and not for the mind
>this disproves homo sex

wew lad

>guys. the greeks didn't understand the notion of homosexuality being an abomination
>they actually had 36 different genders and the sexual spectrum song was played everyday
you're delusional. Ever since that gay bar got fucked up faggots have been begging to be accepted into the mainstream. Instead they got AIDs. Enjoy dying.

Why do you assume that all homosexuals like SJWs? Especially homosexuals on Veeky Forums?

This makes me sad

Based Sparta

at least use BP, this shit is sad

>
>>The Romans kicked their shit in and the Jews scattered
>I know vaguely about the Roman period, Herod and the revolts etc, but WTF happened with Jews under Alexander and the Diadochoi? That's just a huge blank spot in my mind
anyone?

Not gay and I think gender-rainbow is retarded.

Married Spartans fathers had sex on the reg with young boys, fact. What one may think of it is another matter, but you can't just say it was invented because you don't like it.

>BCE
fuck off marxist

So did they touch guys yes or no? Im getting mixed messages from this thread and only proof that supports the side of the raging autist who unironically used BCE

Elites have always fucked young boys, even today all around the world it happens

Herodotus mentions near the end of Book I, in one of the sections between 76 and 90 that Persians adopted the culture of having sex with boys from the Greeks.

Yes, they had sex with younger males. No, it wasnt homosexual and accepted outside certain social classes.

Except calling someone λάkων was an insult similar to "fag", at least in Athens
>oh wow the mortal enemy makes fun of you
Yeah I know, but still it has to count for something.
Homosexuality as we consider it today was illegal. They used some pretty elaborate slang to describe fags as it was frowned upon.

They did. However, it wasn't as spread as modern historians will make you think, it was less widespread than what we are dealing with now.
Also it was illegal in most states I think, only Thebes had a GAY army. That gay army was also extremely strong since it was made up by lovers.

Holy shit, I'm not even that guy and look how much anal clenching that shit inspires. You guys get triggered worse than Tumblrinas over the dumbest shit

I always liked that Veeky Forums is very quick to make fun of "triggers" but when something isn't to their liking they explode with the rage of one million autistic infants.

>nuance scares me!

Why are on a history board?

Greek romance was not supposed to be carnal. They thought sex would cheapen love.

Is it true that if a boy wasn't loved by an older man by 12 he was disgraced?

Yes, as pointed out, Boeotians attempted to have sexual relations with anything that moved. This culture was particularly prevalent in Thebes during the 5th and 4th c. BCE.

If you're trying to decide which posts are convincing, you should probably side with the one that actually offers citations from primary source material. Not the one who tries to conflate Boeotian profligacy with Hellenic culture in general.

Also, as a side-note, Theban sympathisers are a real thing. I don't know much about the ongoing scandals in Hollywood etc with the paedophilia, but generally the people who find themselves in hot water are almost always Boeotian loyalists.

Nuance =/= Autism

>"Well then how come we have years like this?"
"Well, we used to think there was this guy who was important. Now it's just for time keeping purposes."

Boom, easy. Might as well ask why the clock's face only goes up to 12.

Yes, because Jesus not being God means he stops being the most crucial figure of western and possibly world history.

Look at what you're saying, you don't dispute the underlying points: (A) It's practical to use the current dating system, and (B) Jesus is not actually the Lord.

If you believe point B, then you probably should continue using AD rather than CE. However, the majority of people aren't Christian, either because we weren't raised that way or because we realised that Christian teachings about Jesus are false.

Which leaves us with that simple and elegant answer:

Certain people at a certain point in time thought he was some sort of god, and people used his life for purposes of dating. Now, we have inherited that system of dating, but we don't think of him as a god anymore.

>fact
faggot fairy tales. You're in denial

I can just imagine Veeky Forums going to China.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN, "COMMON ERA"? DAMN IT, CHANG, WRITE "YEAR OF OUR LORD"!

...

>Jesus is not actually the Lord
>we realized that Christian teachings about Jesus are false
>WE have realized
>Implying that Christ is not God's only begotten son and the only path to salvation
Why is it that faggot christ-haters like to pretend that non-divinity is a fact?

I'm not pretending, I have demonstrated it repeatedly and would happily do so here if it wouldn't derail the exposure of Boeotian lies.

It is proven by the metaphysical teachings of the Twin Philosophers, Plato and Aristotle, that Christian theological beliefs are mistaken. I am sorry that you are so in love with the works of man, ie the bible, that you willfully have divorced yourself from the divine.

At any rate, I am happy that you have now accepted the practical realities and global popularity of "common era" as opposed to "in the year of our lord". If you want to be Christian, I'm not trying to literally arrest you or forcefully rehabilitate you, so go ahead and say that it's 2017 AD all you want.

Why boys though? Why didn't they molest little girls like normal pedos?