Why does most of modern society continue to justify eating meat...

You are right about all of those practices. However, just because they all are relevant doesn't mean it's a justifiable excuse to continue eating meat, right?

That's like saying, because bank robberies occur, therefore it's okay to steal.

because thats how nature works. don't get too lofty, animal, lest you forget what you are

give me one (1) reason I should give a shit

Okay, you have a point upon my rereading your post (Am drunk).

however, my response would be to that:
1. it's extremely unlikely we would all adopt vegetarianism at once.
2. it would still prevent future generations of animals from suffering.

Sure, but that wasn't my point. I just think its werid that vegans are so desperatly trying to empose their virtues upon others, more so than any christians or any human rights group

>it's extremely likely we would all adopt vegetarianism at once
>it would prevent future generations of animals from suffering
your posts literally contradict each other. If its unlikely for us to adopt vegetariansm, its unlikely that the meat industry will take a significant hit. And who are you to say that a free-range existence for animals is a worse fate than them existing at all?
Environmentally speaking, if we didn't utilize cows for their meat and dairy products, the majority would have to be put down, considering that the 1.5 billion cows on earth produce enough methane to cause the same amount of damage to the atmosphere as 6 billion tons of carbon dioxide. Were it not for humane, sustainable animal husbandry, almost no livestock would exist within a few decades.

Humans are meant to eat meat. It's why we've advanced past other great apes, who eat mostly plantlife with few exceptions.

A carnivore does not feel sorry for it's prey. Even domesticated animals like dogs and ferrets don't show guilt after killing and eating mice or squirrels. Why should I have to hold myself to a higher standard than an animal when the entire moral argument is that animals are equal to us and don't deserve cruel treatment?

That said I dislike the meat industry and the methods they use. Buy from your local farm, or hunt for yourself, I say.

youtube.com/watch?v=PcnH_TOqi3I

Are we going to force animals to become vegan too? I mean we are already forcing a humanity upon them, and we could certainly prevent a lot of death if we wanted to. If animals suddenly are worth something, it's immoral to not, lets say, cut off the claws of a wolf and remove their teeth, since we know their dangerous and we can do something about it.

Don't know if you see my point though...

Superior gainz. Grain-fed horses are stronger than the grass-fed. Horse-fed humans are stronger than the soy-fed.

Of course all burger addicted obese people need to be gassed for a society that believes in this principle to be consistent though. Veganism or body-fascism, the middle ground makes no damn sense.

>Why do human tastebuds outweigh the prevention of animal suffering?

Taste buds have mass. Unjustified abstract concepts don't.

The weak should fear the strong

damn he fucked off quick

because I don't care

>Why should I have to hold myself to a higher standard than an animal when the entire moral argument is that animals are equal to us and don't deserve cruel treatment?
If you can't see the problem with this reasoning then you're legitimately a fucking idiot. But I bet if you think for two seconds you'll be able to. You're not stupid, but you are being lazy.

>when the entire moral argument is that animals are equal to us and don't deserve cruel treatment?
>animals are equal to us and don't deserve cruel treatment?
>something has to be equal to us to not deserve cruel treatment

To paraphrase Bentham, the moral question for vegetarians isn't "can animals reason" (aka are they equal to us) but "can they suffer?"

I'm not even a fucking vegetarian myself - I was one once, but gave it up - but so many of the arguments in favor of meat-eating are so obviously fallacious.

Again, think for more than .2 seconds and maybe you'll see the problem with this.

But, here's the thing. You can preform animal husbandry and make it so that the animals don't suffer at all. Is eating meat OK then?

Vegans should be working towards making artificial meat. Not "vegan plant meat", which is not meat. I mean actual meat that is just made by some machine.
Then I don't think there would be anywere near the same amount of opposition to veganism

I taste meat every day, but I don't see animals suffer. Why would I feel the suffering of something I don't even know exists? I could expose myself to that suffering but that doesn't help my situation.

It's very simple really

>But, here's the thing. You can preform animal husbandry and make it so that the animals don't suffer at all. Is eating meat OK then?
Sidestepping the question of whether that's even possible, to say nothing of remotely practical on a large scale, that would certainly make me (and most vegetarians) much, much more OK with it, yes.

There's still a moral argument that can be made against unnecessarily taking any SENTIENT life (and no, before somebody fucking brings it up, plants aren't sentient, and tomatoes don't scream when you cut them). So don't get laser-focused on that word, "suffer", I used it because I was quoting Bentham; the point is that most people, including virtually all ethical vegetarians, do not believe that something needs to be "equal to humans" or "capable of reasoned thought" for us to have moral obligations to it.

Cows don't scream when you captive bolt pistol them in the head either

>unnecessarily taking sentient life
The thing is that most domesticated animals would have to be put down if we weren't using them for food. Cows, for example, produce the equivalent of 6 billion tons of carbon dioxide in methane emissions per year. Whether animal husbandry happened or not, animals would die. At least this way their suffering is for something.

You'll find most ethical vegans do support this. Sometimes with sizable chunks of money. Years ago, PETA, for instance (whom I dislike, just like most of you, but that's beside the point) offered $1 million in prize money to the first organization or team that managed to produce commercially viable amounts of vat-grown meat. I couldn't tell you without searching whether anyone has collected the prize yet.

>Vegans should be working towards making artificial meat.
They are. Chances are we'll be eating grown burgers in 2030.

Cows don't publish critiques of Kant either.

>Chicken
>Not veal

I may be part nig nog, but I honestly prefer chicken to veal.

>implying most animals in western slaughter houses aren't gassed en masse and that they suffer in any way.

It's Auschwitz-Baconau in those places.

I'm sure this was a great point in your head.

Yes, legally the meat industry has to take certain steps to minimize suffering when they slaughter the animals, which doesn't mean there isn't still a whole fucking bunch of unnecessary suffering going on that isn't regulated-against. To say nothing of the taking of sentient life, which was obviously my point.

>The thing is that most domesticated animals would have to be put down if we weren't using them for food.
Of course. And, I mean, hell, why waste the meat? If we ended the dairy/meat industries tomorrow, I doubt many vegans would begrudge you one last hurrah. Some of them might even join in.

And then afterwards, no MORE animals would be bred to be kept in cramped and inhumane conditions and killed well before reaching the ends of their natural lifespans.

And to reiterate one more time, I EAT MEAT. Every day. I just don't come up with bullshit rationalizations for why it's A-OK. It's unnecessary, I don't need to do it for my health or because it's "natural" or because I came up with some other bullshit philosophical justification. I do it because being a vegetarian is a pain in the ass, and meat is tasty, and at the end of the day I want to enjoy eating meat more than I want to be a perfect human being. And that's OK. Nobody's a perfect human being. Everybody picks their battles. You don't have to pick this one either. Seriously, it's OK.

>The philosophical arguments against eating meat are very strong.
They really aren't.

I don't know about american and third world regulations, but most places in europe have regulations that basicly minimizes suffering to the extent that its possible. Farms that are up to date have their farmers clean the barn every day so animals don't rot in there. They get washed regeluary, they get non shitty food, they have automatic milking machines that cows usually love. Unless it's one of those american mile long farms with 1 million cattles in them, there is usually provided decent living space indide.
I would also like to add that the main reason animals spend a lot of time inside is because of winter. The animals would die if they stayed out in the winter. Durring summer most sane farmers let their animals be outside most of the time. In fact, most farmers aren't ruthless psycopaths like vegans often make them out to be. Most actually have some compassion towards their animals.

>If stopping your consumption of meat has even a very small chance of reducing the meat industry's production rates, aren't you morally obligated to do so?
No.

Of course it differs somewhat country-by-country, but in general, animal welfare regulations are laxer in America than in Europe. Let's not even talk about the third world.

All of that is somewhat beside the point (though I certainly support robust animal welfare legislation, and of course it makes me feel *more* comfortable eating meat) -
>most places in europe have regulations that basicly minimizes suffering to the extent that its possible
I'd replace the word "possible" with "practical." And even if you somehow, magically, eradicated every necessary cost-saving measure and spared no expense in giving the animals as comfortable a life as possible (or at least as comfortable a life as they would get in nature) you'd still have to kill them eventually. Take lives, unnecessarily. Not because it's necessary to keep people healthy (it's quite possible to stay healthy on a completely vegetarian diet, even a vegan one, it's just not much fun). Because people like the taste of meat. There's no way to get around that; even at its best, the meat industry breeds sentient beings for the purpose of killing them, because people like how they taste.

>The philosophical arguments against eating meat are very strong.

Lay them out in plain terms so they can be properly evaluated.

>All of that is somewhat beside the point
No, it's not. Animals in these (euro regulated) farms are treated better than how nature would have trated them. It is litteraly the best any cattle could hope for. Again, most of these animald would DIE in the winter, or starve, or get eaten alive.
The only agument you have is that it's humans doing the killing. But it's killing with as little suffering as any could hope for. Even most humans die in more painfull ways compared to cattle that are put down by bolt guns.

Good. Where can I go fund them

they're animals, it is their job in life

I bet you're a libertarian.

And you think those (domesticated) animals would be released to roam the pastures if you and your five vegan friends stopped eating meat?

>Again, most of these animald would DIE in the winter, or starve, or get eaten alive.
None of which is preventable. In a remotely practical way, anyway. The deaths that occur due to the meat industry are completely within our power to prevent. Because, of course, we cause them.

Now, maybe you don't share the view that killing a sentient creature is wrong if you can avoid it. If so, then fair enough, I suppose.

But if that's your view, then say that. Don't skate around it by spinning horseshit about how eating meat is fine because we need meat to stay healthy (which is false); how eating meat is right because eating meat was a large part of what caused humans to develop intelligence (which is true, but irrelevant); how it's fine because plants suffer just as much as animals when you kill them (which is incredibly fucking false); or because most of those animals would have suffered and died in nature anyway, when the animals you're talking about never would have existed (in nature or otherwise) except for us.

You do know that the smell of cut grass is actually a signal of distress?
Grass can feel things too.
Eat a rock.
No, seriously, i don't care. Humans are omnivores and there are certain amino acids and nutrients we require to be health and fit that we just can't get from plants.

This thread is unironically spooked to death.

>its better that almost no cows or chickens exist in the whole entire world than that we eat them for meat

Boy, thats getting a little close to PETA putting down pets just because, isn't it?

Following this logic,shouldn't we drive to extinction all animals that are in the middle of food chains and thus likely to die violent and painful deaths?

>maybe you don't share the view that killing a sentient creature is wrong if you can avoid it.

I'm not sure what the argument for this view would be. I can see the wrong in causing a creature to suffer. That much is very plain. But I'm not sure that there's anything wrong with the simple act of harvesting life. The wrong in killing comes from the robbing of something's right to it's own life. But when it's a life which you've created, nurtured, sheltered from all pain and saw to it that it was fulfilled and experienced everything it is capable of, I dont see anything bad in summarily and painlessly ending its existence. It's pure bliss, through and through. Ideally that's all ranchers would do in this world is create bliss. Birth cows, give them a happy life, and when the time is right, end it and provide others with delicious and nutritious meat. Where is the harm, where is the moral foul in this?

>muh suffering
Objectively, the only way to ultimately prevent suffering is to genocide everything.

Human suffering doesn't really matter all that much either desu.

>it's okay for organisms to feel pain because they don't react and aren't cute
This is your mind on veganism.

>Be American
>Get shot
>Don't mind because objectively, the only way to ultimately prevent suffering is to genocide everything

>we need meat to stay healthy
Yep, unless you like taking artificial supplements.
>because plants suffer just as much as animals when you kill them
Objectively true, saying things are false doesn't make it so. Plants have been shown to react to pain, just because it isn't visual doesn't make you any more just in killing only them.

The solution is not to end factory farming and institute humane slaughtering practices and nonsense like that, the solution is to pour all our productivity into increasing our nuclear stockpiles and glassing this hellworld until no creature will ever get to suffer again, granting Nirvana to every being trapped on it.

Because most dont have misplaced empathy toward livestock.