Leave lying about history to me

[citation needed]

Am I wrong for putting all genocides in history comparable to Pol Pot regarding how likely they are to have happen? I don't know but it seems like they set a gold standards for what's actually possible to do if you're somewhat determined to kill a lot of your own population regardless of logistics, bureaucracy and technology available.

Who the fuck cares about Solzhenitsyn as an historian!? He only matters as a writer

>subhuman tankies butthurt about people exposing their bullshit ideology

yeah, you just have to be a useful idiot like you

Commie apologists want to discredit him because his books have gotten a slight revival lately and he was an outspoken critic of soviet crimes.

How so?

Veeky Forums needs to take the REAL redpill

>Commie apologists want to discredit him because his books have gotten a slight revival lately and he was an outspoken critic of soviet crimes.

Go back to bed Hillary.

Go back to bed Robert.

>I trust propaganda more than the people there
You don't have to be /pol/ to realize Hitler didn't kill anyone.

But Stalin did kill 100 million

Regardless of quibbles over data points he definitely shows how destructive the state can be to the human spirit
A bunch of hyper-arrogant technocrats hopped up on utopian visions of grandeur leads to the death of humanity, that's the biggest point
I don't know how communists are content with the idea of relinquishing individuality so they can be made into a cog in some grand experimental schema. It's disgusting and shows incredibly weak character.

Historians agree that Hitler killed millions. Historians don't agree that Stalin killed 60-100 million.

>mans suffering
Educate yourself, debil. Not even Sasha himself cries about his personal suffering. His works are mainly about reporting suffering of others.

60 million is high but not an isolated or outrageous number. Here are some other estimates:

>Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
>Gold, John.: 50-60 million.
>Rummel, 1990: 61,911,000 democides in the USSR 1917-87, of which 51,755,000 occurred during the Stalin years.
>William Cockerham, Health and Social Change in Russia and Eastern Europe: 50M+

You're also completely wrong and possibly dishonest to try to phrase it like he was saying he claimed 60 million happened before WW2. You're either a liar or just don't know your own criticisms of the man. Either way, you should take a step back and look in the mirror.

David Irving is a historian and he disagrees with the claim that Hitler killed millions.

Can someone tell me where 100 million came from?

>the soviet records are reliable
[citation needed]
>but user official re...
hey! they were willing and able to lie, to pretend they are 100% accurate is retarded.

>Historians agree
That's a nice appeal to authority fallacy faggot.
Do you have any hard or reasoned evidence to sway my thoughts or are you just going to abscond back to leftypol (read :retardpol)?

>Rummel
Almost all of his other estimates are obscene exaggerations.
>"""historian"""

>David Irving is a historian
Show me his degree.

>LOL it was only like 40 million so communism isn't so bad guise!

Alright. What proportion of that 60 million happened in the eight years after WW2? What consequence does that have for the population of the Soviet Union on the eve of the war? Birth rates? Family sizes?

One way or another you still have to account for at least 50 million extra deaths that just don't exist in the Soviet archives.

It's not a fallacy if it's true. It's like saying lawyers agree that shooting someone is illegal.

>You're only a historian if you agree that Hitler was evil and Stalin did nothing wrong

Oh yeah because the Black Book of Communism, a well crafted but unofficial investigative literary work, or a US-paid propagandist is any better...

>It's not a fallacy if it's true
I guess the holocaust didn't happen lmao.
>lawyers agree shooting someone is illegal
But that's still a fallacy....
I am asking how can you verify the truth without a fallacy, otherwise we can't know.
What makes shooting someone illegal? Lawyers agreeing on it or an act of the government?

...

I see little reason to doubt internal records that were not disclosed to the general public. Bear in mind that falsifying the death tolls to the extents required to support the large estimates would also require falsifying population figures, birth rates, army sizes, labour force, the amount of inhabited dwellings, and so on, and so on. This is all amounting to a massive falsification effort requiring the collaboration of thousands of statisticians. It's not impossible, but it's asking a lot.

Even if we agree that all of the above happened (with no evidence furnished by you), what do you base your figures on, then? What are your sources?

>Even though I've been called out for lying, I'm sure if I don't read sources given to me myself and rely on an user to hastily interpret their understanding of hundreds of pages of multiple works I can nitpick some issues and thus communism's honor is saved!

>Dyadkin, I.G. (Demograficheskaya statistika neyestestvennoy smertnosti v SSSR 1918-1956 ): 56 to 62 million "unnatural deaths" for the USSR overall, with 34 to 49 million under Stalin.
Most of those fall on Hitler's head.
>Gold
Publication?
>Rummel
Is quite an ideologue
>Cockerham
Are you sure he didn't listed "unnatural deaths" like D'adkin?

While his statistics may be meme-tier the primary sources he gathered for gulag archipelago are invaluable.

Not what I said. I said that serious (read: not conspiracy theorist) historians generally agree that both Hitler and Stalin were murderers, but that there's little agreement on Stalin's death toll, though most estimates are between 3 and 20 million.

Not an argument.

>falsifying the death tolls to the extents required to support the large estimates would also require falsifying population figures, birth rates, army sizes, labour force, the amount of inhabited dwellings, and so on, and so on.
actually it wouldn't, it would only require falsifying the death toll.
>I see little reason to doubt
You see little reason period
>with no evidence from you
Burden isn't on me, you need to prove the reliability of your claims about the official record. Solzman is offering an alternative and referencing eye witness and second hand information with no clear reason to lie. The Soviet regime on the other hand, well they have every reason to lie about everything to everyone. Do you think they held onto their power by being honest with their officers? I think that's a bit far fetched.
>what do you base your figures on then
I don't, I am scrutinizing the official records, they aren't standing up to it.
Stalin apologists need to be gassed

>Not an argument.

3 million deaths is still more than you can shake a stick at
Not to mention the inhumanly oppressive regime made your life a living Hell

I'm not doubting that. I'm just doubting that he killed 60 million or more.

>actually it wouldn't, it would only require falsifying the death toll.

In year X the population was 180 million. 5 million died, 10 million were born. In year X+1 the population was 130 million...

Jesus Christ. Why were the KGB so autistic about this sort of thing?

Soviets recorded their atrocities because they believed they were the vanguard of revolution leading the way to a utopia. That is why we know about the massacre of the Polish Officer corps in the Katyn Forest.

That is still a lot of people.

where's the figure for camp deaths from 1921-1953

>they would be inconsistent
lots of them are?
>Soviets recorded their atrocities because they believed they were the vanguard of revolution leading the way to a utopia
[citation needed]

if not bait, please die.

Why are you asking for citations? You dont actually care about what citations people have given you.

The thing about Katyn was that the Russians tried to blame it on the Germans. And continued to do so until 1990. For 50 years the entire world knew they were responsible but they continued to deny it

Funny because Katyn is only relevant because it was the centre of a diplomatic crisis. In reality it wasn't the first or last such massacre of the Polish population and it wasn't the biggest (that would be the Polish Operation of NKVD).

He BTFOs commies so bad that they try anything to stop him, either by killing or discrediting him.
You can see the tankies in this very thread flailing as they try to parrot KGB propoganda to discredit him.

gee, I wonder (((who))) could be behind this post

So jus the fist itself isn't the communist sign you also need a wimpy arm?

>bothering to lie in archives that are kept secret and will only be release to the public if the union collapses

>Bothering to cover the tracks of your own crimes

It's like the Soviets were actually, you know, thinking breathing human beings.

Even 20 million killed by Stalin is an exaggeration. And there are obvious problems here such as Gulag mortality rate during the war. They died mostly because of starvation, mostly because the Nazis took over Ukraine which was the breadbasket of Soviet Union.

>archives that are kept secret and will only be release to the public if the union collapses
Why would they lie to themselves?

Because real men don't keep track of their prison population.

Waas this intentionally made to look like a parody of neonazi claims that concentration camps victims died because allies bombed supply lines?

What kind of personal background does it take to become a Sovietboo? Do you have to be a Slav-chauvanist or something? Or just hate Germans?

The difference is that 90% of gulag inmates survived their sentence. There's a difference between a death camp and a labour camp.

Then you guys get upset when people talk about closing public university

That pic is not /leftypol/, stop lying faggot there have never been /leftypol/ meetups

>>>leftypol
is that way, commie faggot

>66 milions died in Soviet Union, 44 in GULAGs, Soviet archives dont mention this because they are full of lies
>Katyn is real, because Soviet archives are full of truths

>there have never been /leftypol/ meetups.
and did you have been in those meetups?

Fun Fact, the British knew about the true authors of Katyn but kept quiet about it until decades after ww2

His main point is that the people who got man handled by the gulag machine had no idea about the law that was condemning them or what to do about it

he was right

>Buh buh why would they lie to themselves
Because you stupid tankie, they already had. They had lied to each other and smiled while Stalin murdered his compatriots, they had lied to each other and said "nothing is going on" as civilians were being massacred, they all said "this is fine" as 90% of the Chechen population was pushed off their homeland and sent into the Ural mountains, and they all said "This isn't happening" when they saw the thousands and thousands of people being put into the gulags.

But that doesn't matter to you, you fucking worm. What matters is that they have your pet ideology, so all these crimes are excusable in your mind.

Fuck you. Get off my board.

Torturing people is still torturing people, user. Even if these people survived they had scars that would last them a lifetime. Some of these people were shattered psychologically and couldn't even keep working when they were released.

so what you autistic faggot? Its just to show the sort of jerk offs who are into leftypol type of stuff. Just like those images of random neo-nazi meetups are used to show what the average /pol/fag looks like

making great claims with 0 supporting evidence. go on pol or leftypol- your choice of autism.

Tankies, like Nazis, like to use specific, confusing tactics in order to hide the crimes which their idols have committed. Focussing on "muh death toll" is one of them, because the strongest evidence shows that Stalin probably did not kill 60 million people, it was probably closer to 15-20 million. A high death toll nonetheless.

As I said, this is meant to confuse people, not to actually prove anything. Tankies like to pretend that the death toll is the only thing that matters, as if deporting innocent people to Siberia for 20 years of forced labour is alright so long as they come back alive. The fact that they are emotionally dead doesn't seem to matter to them. The truth is that even if the Soviets may not have been as murderous when you compare them to the Nazis with respect to the time frame in which they existed, their crimes are still massive and undeniable. Aside from he classic cases of murder by the Soviets such as the Holodomor and Katyn, the Soviets are responsible for all sorts of other atrocities equally as ferocious but without bodybags.
>Forced labour of 200,000 ethnic German civilians as "punishment" for WWII
>Ethnic cleansing of 3 million Germans in East Prussia
>Deportation of 15,000 Poles in 1939
>Deportation of 8,000 Jehovah's Witnesses in the 1950s
>Deportation of Romanians
>Deportation of Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians
>Deportation of Crimean Greeks and Tatars
>Deportation of Caucus Greeks
>Deportation of Kalmyks, Balkars, Karachays, Karapapaks, Koreans, and Meskhetian Turks
>Deportation of Chechens and Ingush

So while tankies are busy pleading that gulags were not death camps like the Nazis, and that these ethnic groups were not all sent to gulags (as if it is okay if you only send a few entire ethnic groups to forced labour camps), you can remind them that over 40% of those deported died of either disease or malnutrition when they didn't end up in gulags.

But at least they didn't have gas chambers.

Fuck off.

>Ethnic cleansing of 3 million Germans in East Prussia

Let's be real, the Soviets did not really organise that, Czechs and Poles were thirsty for revenge against the Germans and the Germans left running for their lives.

I agree with the rest though, they are a historical fact and the Soviets did a lot of scummy things and ethnic cleansing inside the Soviet Union under Stalin.

But even though they didn't have gas chambers, they still set up what were essentially death camps without the gassing. For the Chechens and Ingush people, daily rations were lower than what inmates in Auschwitz received.

>What kind of personal background does it take to become a Sovietboo?
you need to worship jiggers, feminists and Jews, and you also need to inject yourself with estrogen everyday

Exactely

even holocaust revisionist claims make more sense desu

Tell me kike, where did you got that info about Operation Lentil? Soviet archives, right? But its fake, Chechen population was never deported.

>They had lied to each other and smiled while Stalin murdered his compatriots, they had lied to each other and said "nothing is going on" as civilians were being massacred, they all said "this is fine" as 90% of the Chechen population was pushed off their homeland and sent into the Ural mountains, and they all said "This isn't happening" when they saw the thousands and thousands of people being put into the gulags.

But Mr. Conquest, I thought the whole point of waiting for the release of the Soviet archives was that since they were for internal use only, they would be the most accurate and reflective records of what was truly going on inside the USSR?

Well Zinn's dead so...

Also Zinn was brought up as an academic despite only ever publishing one academic work in his life time.

This whole thread

Why they all raising the wrong fist?

Jews play both sides, moron.