What's the difference between shorting crypto and selling for USD and buying back in?

...

that is what shorting crypto is.

you typically short on margin

That's what I thought, but margin comes with the liquidation limits. Selling for USD seems safer

makes zero sense. when you sell you liquidate yourself either way. if you get margin called you give away your crypto. how is it different?

Playing safe won't get you to Lamboland

Selling is just shorting with zero margin

No it isn't, shorting involves borrowing.
To short a crypto, you borrow x amount of crypto from the exchange at the market rate and sell straight away. You then wait for it to drop in price to buy it back so you can repay the exchange and pocket the difference.

short selling means promising to buy at a later date. so you can short sell something you dont have and hold negative coins. cant do that with a normal sell. need collateral though

>Selling and rebuying later.

So it's shorting

No, because you dont get the fiat immediately. You get it at the end of the trade

Do you not know what BORROWING is?

No its not shorting. With shorting, you don't own what you're selling, you're borrowing it with collateral.
example-
>send 1 btc to bitfinex, you can now buy or sell 3.3 btc worth of whatever they allow margin trading on, using your 1 btc as collateral.
>If you lose on your trade, you lose some or all of the collateral you put up as the margin for your trade.

I do, but wether you actually own a Bitcoin, sell it and buy it again later or wether borrow it to sell it and buy again later is not a difference.

Do you know what LEVERAGE is?

Not something that you necessarily need to short

These anons are right

There is a HUGE difference
Either
>You sold the coin you owned and now you have nothing (aka not shorting)
OR
>You still own the coin, and you are selling coin you borrowed.

Also, with shorting, you sold the top (hopefully) and when you buy back lower you get the profit NOW, not when the price goes back up.

Why is this so complicated? Can some one explain it like im 5?

From what I understand if you short btc with 100x leverage if you put up one btc and the btc goe down1% and liquidated for a total loss of your 1 btc.

However if you're right and the price drops and if you cash out at lets 5% drop you made how much money ?

*goes UP 1%

I'm guessing you're talking about Bitmex, which complicates it even more, but in your scenario -
5 btc gain minus or plus any fees and funding.

Well fuck that a lot of money

This entire thread is why I know Veeky Forums is full of retards and under aged kids.
/thread

No with selling you also make the profit instantly. You get money for selling.
It is the same.

yes it does you fucking retard
this way you make money AS IT GOES DOWN instead of staying static
fucking sage this shit thread

To add to this:
Suppose you have a Bitcoin. Say worth 4000 bucks. You FUD and sell. You're right and rebuy at 3000. You now have a Bitcoin and 1000 additional bucks.
Now compare that to shorting.
Instead of selling your Bitcoin you lend a Bitcoin from someone and sell that one. Wait for it to hit 3000, rebuy and give it back. You now have a Bitcoin and 1000 bucks. Exactly the same result.

Only difference with shorting is that you can sell more than you actually own.

See

Oh and of course shorting comes with fees, mostly the interest rate from lending. So you actually make more profit from selling instead of shorting.
There also comes the benefit of never having to "close" your position. You don't need to rebuy as you don't owe anybody.

If you don't plan on shorting more than you actually own, you make more profit from selling and rebuying and its safer.

No it is not the same.

selling normally -
>You sell 1 btc at $5000.
>BTC drops to $4000, and you buy it back.
>You make $0 (ZERO)

Shorting
>You BORROW 1 btc and sell it at $5000
>BTC drops to $4000, and you buy it back and return the borrowed btc.
>You keep the $1000 difference right now.
>depending on leverage, you either lost less than hodling, or made profit overall

See I don't get how you guys don't understand this. Selling and rebuying is what shorting is. You're not doing anything different just because you lend it from somebody

>You make $0 (ZERO)

I mean this is just plain wrong. If you sell at 5000 and buy at 4000 you have 1000 bucks left. The profit is exactly the same.

You only make that thousand if the price rises back to when you sold though, whereas with shorting you pocket the difference as soon as you sell.

Wait a second, i thought about it some more. In both instances you end up with 1 btc and a thousand dollars extra (assuming you buy back in immediatly at the same point in both scenarios)

No you don't. Jesus Christ.
You sell at 5000. You have 5000 bucks. You buy at 4000. You have 1000 bucks.
What step do you not understand?
If the price rises up you got a 1000 bucks PLUS another 1000 from the rising price. Your total worth would be 6000 then.

If you short BTC you're "short" one BTC which must be repaid. If you sell your BTC you just don't have any.

You fucking moron, youre are literally fucking wrong
how the fuck are you this stupid
>Suppose you have a Bitcoin. Say worth 4000 bucks. You FUD and sell. You're right and rebuy at 3000. You now have a Bitcoin and 1000 additional bucks.
WHERE THE FUCK DID THAT 1000 COME FROM?
From it supposedly RECOVERING right?
If you short, you have +1000 BEFORE it recovers AND even MORE when it DOES recover
you're so fucking stupid you actually need to die before you accidently spread your seed
fucking brainlet retarded faggot holy shit I have a headache from this shit thread

Lets say you bought at $4950.
What now?

Yes the only difference is what you hodl while the position is open.
With selling you hold 5000 dollars.
With shorting you hold your Bitcoin. The result is the same though. In the end the Bitcoin is worth more or less and you close with position with a profit or a loss by rebuying. The profit/loss is exactly the same.

No, from selling. You sell for money. I seriously don't get at what step I'm losing you guys.

FUCK i can't even write out my thoughts properly because of how stupid you are, YOU'RE LITERALLY CONTAGIOUS
let me write of the full fucking scenario holy fuck I hate you
-IF BITCOIN AT 4000
Scenario 1: SHORT on lets say 5X margin
it drops to 3000. that's a 25% drop
on MARGIN, which is what SHORTING is about
5x*25% = 125%
YOU MADE 125% ON MARGIN SHORTING THIS MOVE
NOW YOU HAVE 4000+5000 FROM THE 125% SHORT ON MARGIN
$9000!!!!!!!
scenario TWO:
IF YOU JUST SOLD @ 4000$, NOT SHORT
REBUY AT 3000
YOU STILL HAVE 4000$
IS THIS CLEAR YET YO USTUPID NIGGER? DIE IN A FIRE

Then you end up with a Bitcoin and 50 bucks. Same result as closing your short position at 4950. You made 50 bucks.

You're SO FUCKING STUPID
you've never fucking shorted in your life, stop acting like you know what you're talking about
fucking die unironically for being this stupid holy shit I'm actually so mad I'm literally shaking

note that this 9000$ is PRERECOVERY AT THE BOTTOM STILL
and your SHIT 4000$ is also prerecovery
now I have 9000$ and you have 4000$, we both started at 4000$
Now both OFF margin and btc recovers
+25% on each, WHO HAS MORE MONEY, THE MAN WHO SHORTED OR THE MAN WHOSE A DUMBASS AND DOESN'T KNOW WHAT SHORTING IS?

Margin is just selling more. Instead of selling one Bitcoin you sell 5 Bitcoin. If you sold 5 Bitcoin you would get 25000 bucks. Then if you buy 5 Bitcoin at 4000 you buy for 20000 bucks. Profit of 5000. Exactly the same result.

The difference you're adding is the margin, not the fact that you're shorting.
Selling is shorting with a margin of 1:1

what the FUCK are you talking about

IF YOU SOLD 5 BTC??? FUCK YOU, THEN THAT MEANS IF YOU SHORTED 5 BTC ON 5X, YOU'D BE SELLING 25 BTC THERE

DO YOU UNDERSTAND NOW????

NOW I HAVE 5BTC ON 5X MARGIN AND I NOW MADE 125% ON THAT 5BTC IF I SHORTED

YOU CANNOT JUST CHANGE THE STARTING VALUE FOR 1 SCENARIO YOU FUCKING ILLITERATE MONKEY

Which is also what this guy said. Thread could have ended there.

THE ENTIRE POINT OF SHORTING IS TO GO BEYOND 1:1
it's not fucking SHORTING if you are not SHORT on coins to pay back until you are in PROFIT
HOLY SHIT JUST DIE

Yes, if you shorted 5 Bitcoin with a margin of 1:5 that would be exactly the equivalent of selling 25 Bitcoin

Which is what I said. The only difference is that you sell more than you actually own. But if you don't plan on shorting more than you own then there is no difference between selling and shorting

you're a fucking stupid nigger
it is the EQUIVALENT of that but you DO NOT OWN 25 BTC, YOU ONLY HAVE 5 BTC, BUT YOU STILL GET THE PROFIT OF SELLING 25 THERE AND BUYING LATER
You get the profit of someone with MORE MONEY
thats what fucking shorting is you dumbass retarded nigger

>But if you don't plan on shorting more than you own then there is no difference between selling and shorting
No. If you don't plan on selling more than you own then IT ISN'T SHORTING BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT SHORT ON COINS
this is BASIC reading comprehension
Do you know what the fucking word short MEANS?
>sell (stocks or other securities or commodities) in advance of acquiring them, with the aim of making a profit when the price falls.
IN ADVANCE OF ACQUIRING THEM

fucking retard wasting my fucking time, needs to get the shit kicked out of him for being so fucking stupid
dont fucking use terms you don't understand you fucking moronic little shitheads

This not where the term short comes from.
The fuck you think "long" means then?

I think you purposely misunderstand me. Yes with shorting you can sell things you don't own. That's the lending part. The way you make money with shorting is still selling and rebuying. Which is why actually selling and rebuying gives you the same profit or loss.

You stupid fucking retard I literally just fucking LINKED THE DICTIONARY to you and YOU STILL fucking dont understand

If I'm fucking SHORT ON MILK THAT MEANS I DONT FUCKING HAVE MILK

If I'm short on Coins that means I DONT HAVE FUCKING COINS

My God you are retarded

Short comes from being the opposite if long not from being short of something.
Long = Buying and selling later
Short = Selling and buying later

>being this dumb

Again see

And what if the price goes up Sherlock?

Shut the fuck up you retarded moron.
Short is SELLING WHAT YOU DO NOT HAVE
THE DICTIONARY DEFINITION IS RIGHT FUCKING HERE
>SHORT COMES FROM LONG NOT SHORT
THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT YOU JUST TYPED
HOLY FUCK

Still same result

Selling buying:
sell at say 5000 rebuy at 5500.
Loss: 500

Short at 5000, close at 5500
Loss: 500

Yes a short position is exactly the opposite of a long position.

MORE FUCKING SOURCES FOR THIS RETARDED NIGGER ON THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LONG AND SHORT

>A key component of long position investment is the ownership of the stock or bond. This contrasts with the short position investment, where an investor does not own the stock

>Short at 5000, close at 5500
>Loss: 500
You would get margin called before you lost the exchange any money, also you can only borrow if you have capital to put up for it. With shorting, you would lose your collateral, not the difference between 2 prices

>the investor sells shares of borrowed stock in the open market.
SELLS BORROWED STOCK
NOT STOCK HE FUCKIGN OWNS

The point that you're not understanding is that this is not what makes a difference. If you own a Bitcoin sell it or if you short a Bitcoin, you end up with the same result, because shorting is literally selling and rebuying. I mean you literally have the definition there it literally explains to you that's how shorting works.

I just linked you THREE DEFINITIONS THAT SAY YOU MUST BORROW for it to be SHORT
fucking moron, just die.

The point is that it makes no difference.

And? Nobody has been arguing about that. The point is the result is the same.

you make money, raw FIAT, ON THE WAY DOWN, thats a HUGE fucking difference

if it NEVER RECOVERS, ALA LEHMAN BROTHERS, YOU STILL MAKE MONEY ON THE WAY DOWN

if it goes UP, you LOSE MONEY ON SHORT POSITION. if you are NOT SHORT, but just SELL, you STILL HAVE YOUR 4000$, EVEN IF IT IS LESS OF A BITCOIN

You only get margin called if you're low on capital. Either way the margin call just forces you to close earlier which would be the equivalent of setting a buy order at the mark that would trigger the margin call.

NO NIGGER, YOU LOSE NOTHING IN THIS SCENARIO

SELL AT 5000, REBUY AT 5500 -> YOU STILL HAVE 5000

SHORT 5000$ WORTH and CLOSE SHORT AT 5500, YOU HAVE 4500

You lose the money by rebuying at the higher price. Short is not sell. It's sell+buy

sell WHAT YOU DO NOT OWN
this is the KEY DIFFERENCE
You can LOSE MONEY on shorting, you CANNOT lose money by regular selling

WOW biz, this thread is clear proof that MOST of you are fucking retarded and have no idea what you're doing or what you think you're talking about.

>implying your collateral changes when you have a short position open

>Buy 1 BTC
>Send it to Bitfinex
>Sell 1000 OMG at $12
>Buy 1000 OMG at $9
>never owned 1 OMG ever in history. Still sold 1k

Its not the same... Just because 1 single specific scenario will technically get you the same profit or loss, doesn't mean its the same thing.

Sell at 5000 buy at 5500 you have a Bitcoin minus 500 you needed to put in extra.
Short and close at 5500 you still have your Bitcoin minusnthe 500 loss.

I don't get why you're even arguing this. Selling and rebuying is literally what you do when you short. The only difference is that you're selling someone elses Bitcoin and not your own that you have to give back in the end. It makes no fucking difference if you sell your own Bitcoin or somebody elses though.
You end up with a loss of 500 either way.

>you needed to put in extra.
WHY DO YOU NEED TO PUT IN EXTRA? THE FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT YOU DUMBASS? NOONE IS MAKING YOU HAVE PARITY WITH THE STOCK

I'm arguing because YOU'RE FUCKING WRONG AND DESERVE TO DIE FOR IT

where the fuck can an american even do these things??

i use bittrex and cant see any options. ???


wtf this is so shit

>Short and close at 5500 you still have your Bitcoin minusnthe 500 loss.
NO, DUMBASS, NOW YOU HAVE 4500/5500

THERE'S A BIGASS FUCKING DIFFERENCE THERE

there is no SHORTING on bittrex. poloniex, kraken, and bitmex allow SHORTING. You can only sell normally on bittrex.

Shorting is literally the act of selling and rebuying later. What's so hard to understand about that? The result is the same, the only thing different is that you lend it from somebody. Selling and rebuying will ALWAYS result in the same profit/loss as shorting because that's when you do when you short.

>>Short and close at 5500 you still have your Bitcoin minusnthe 500 loss.
this is REALLY pissing me off, what the FUCK do you mean you still of a fucking bitcoin minus 500 loss? You're twisting shit around in a retarded way to try to suit your DUMBASS narrative
stop trying to wave your ugly fat hands around in front of my face to hide things

YOU HAVE 4500/5500 NOW

IF YOU DID NOT SHORT YOU WOULD STILL BE AT 5000/5500

That is not the fucking point. Of course nobody forces you to rebuy at 5500. But if you did it would be the same result as shorting and closing at 5500.

>It makes no fucking difference if you sell your own Bitcoin or somebody elses though.
>You end up with a loss of 500 either way.
If you sell your own bitcoin to buy it back at the lower price, you will not end up with a profit though. Sell 1 BTC for $5000. You now have $5000. Buy 1 BTC back for $4000. You now have 1 BTC worth $4000 + $1000 fiat = $5000.

Short sell 1 BTC at $5000. You now have a 1 BTC debt. Buy 1 BTC at $4000 and repay the 1 BTC straight away. You now have $1000 profit

To rebuy the Bitcoin you need 500 extra Dollars. That is your loss. What do you not get about that?

NO YO UFUCKING RETARD, YOU SAID YOU NEEDED TO PUT IN EXTRA
YOU DO NOT NEED TO PUT IN EXTRA
YOU CAN JUST REBUY WITH YOUR 5000 AND STILL HAVE 5000
YOU DO NOT NEED TO PUT IN ANOTHER 500$ FOR NO REASON
You fucking IDIOT, stop adding random shit to the scenario

ok dude youre right, you win. calm down man and short some bitcoin.

NO DUMBASS, THATS NOT YOUR LOSS, YOU HAD 5000$ AND END UP WITH 5000$

IF YOU SHORT, YOU HAD 5000$ AND NOW HAVE 4500
not until this moron live streams jumping off a fucking cliff so I can make sure this fucking moron never reproduces with some whore in a back alley and makes the world a little worse by adding another little retard to it

Yeah but you still have a Bitcoin that's worth 4000. So your networth is 5000 in both scenarios.

Its only the same PROFIT/LOSS if you only go 1:1. In literally every single other possible scenario, its not the same... Even then you're just hedging if you go 1:1.

You can't buy a Bitcoin for 5000 dollars if it costs 5500 dollars. The fuck you're even on about now? If you sell and rebuy at higher price you need to put in more money to be able to rebuy. We're now arguing over simple logic. I don't even know any other way to explain this to you.

No, your networth in the shorting scenario is the same as in the no shorting scenario + the difference you made from shorting. Jesus fucking Christ you're dumb. If there was no difference between selling / buying and shorting then why would shorting even exist?

WHO THE FUCK IS TALKING ABOUT BUYING A BITCOIN?
YOU ARE BUYING 5000$ WORTH OF A BITCOIN
THERE IS A CLEAR DIFFERENCE HERE YOU STUPID NIGGER
OPPORTUNITY COST IS NOT THE SAME AS A HARD LOSS

As I said earlier, margin is just selling and rebuying more. See

buying and selling MORE is the KEY DIFFERENCE
what the FUCK is wrong with you
post your fucking address

Again Short = Selling and Rebuying later.

You sell at 5000. Price goes to 5500. To rebuy you now need 5500 dollar. 500 dollars more than before. 500 is your loss.

Everyone just stop replying to him

no, you do NOT NEED 5500 TO BUY NOW
what the FUCK?
You can buy FRACTIONS of a coin you stupid nigger, do you not even fucking own any bitcoin???
You have 5000 at the start AND THE END