Tell me about Lech Walesa

found one of the articles
nytimes.com/2017/01/31/world/europe/poland-lech-walesa-communist-report.html
so supposedly they found documents in the Polish stasi archive he was a paid informer, however because the current government has such a hate boner for Walesa and is pretty willing to coopt state institutions its impossible to determine the truth at the moment

He did work for the communist security service as a secret informant during the 1970s, that's known for a fact. Even he doesn't deny it any more, he just says he "tricked them" i.e. was just an informer to further the cause for the opposition. Hell, it's been known since the mid-90s, it's just that further evidence keeps showing up (i.e. recently a private stash of documents from the late general Jaruzelski - his "insurance", if you will).

It seems he didn't work with them directly in the 1980s or later though, so the controversy is largely about whether he was influenced by the fact they had dirt on him (i.e. the evidence that he used to work for them).

Just to add a bit to the above.

The end of communist rule in Poland is what you could generally call "fishy", though I'd say it's better to describe it as a controlled demolition.

The crux of the matter is that it happened through negotiation, not any brutal revolt. The brutal crackdowns of the early 80s didn't stop the problems and by the late 80s the commies knew they couldn't maintain control much longer. So they invited the opposition leaders to negotiate which resulted in semi-free elections and the end of communism.

But since the negotiations happened on the initiative of the communists, they were the kingmakers. They controlled the discussions and they chose which opposition leaders to negotiate with. Many were rejected as "unconstructive". This was done perfectly openly - who can blame the government for only wanting to talk with constructive people, ones interested in fixing the situation?

So naturally whenever they could they would deal with people that they had dirt on like Wałęsa, because then he wouldn't do anything to them after they step down. They'd also avoid including people with crazy ideas like investigating secret police archives or prosecuting communists for various crimes including the brutal crackdowns from a few years earlier.

And that's how the communist era in Poland came to a peaceful end, with the communist elites either retiring on lavish state pensions or remaining on their posts in various institutions unmolested.

Depending on your perspective this is either a huge outrage or simply the communists being rational and gracefully stepping down in as efficient and bloodless a process as they could arrange. The truth is somewhere in between.

Also there's a bit more of a general lesson here, and that is on the prevalence of various shades of opportunists and/or scumbags at high levels of various organisations and hierarchies:

If you have dirt on someone, promote them whenever you can! Then they are very likely to take decisions to your liking. Outright blackmail isn't even necessary so long as they know you have the dirt on them.

good read desu

always wondered about how communism fell for different countries, for some it was peaceful for others like Romania it was a bloodbath

do any real heroes exist?

...

>for others like Romania it was a bloodbath

Romania also thoroughly BTFO their commies out of the political scene.

Romania was a staged coup. The main commies behind Ceaucescu used him as a decoy.

O course it is not all.
There were also plenty other sides that trying to get different outcome.
>Germany pushing for balkanization of Poland
>USA pushing for violent uprising
>low ranking members of security trying to preserve communism and their own positions
>mass of workers that do not really want capitalism or privatization but western socialism and democracy

The model of Party step down with their position secured(plenty of cash and people in right places) was also used in former Soviet republics but it only work in smaller ones and Russia fell into hands of Secret Services.
It was also beta test for incoming colored revolutions.

>Germany pushing for balkanization of Poland?

you forgot to mention:
huge corruption
mass crime wave controlled by former internal intelligence
West exploiting Poland in colonial fashion
Also Michnik trying to form a new cosmpolitan identity in Poland and trying to destroy Polish national identity

Yes
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Walentynowicz

True Unionist, cared about workers, was almost destroyed after 89, knew who Walesa was

they were pushing for "regional identity first" and supporting autonomists in Upper Silesia

this so much

Why are Eastern Euros so obsessed with intelligence agencies and conspiracies?

Because Russian intelligence pupetteered their countrues for at least 50 years.

close but no cigar

Dubček?

do any real heroes who didn't get BTFO exist?

Yes

Mostly because they witness them.
Or take part in one.
Yeah. They fund and subsidize Silesia and Kashube on.
The leader of the Kashube one was no one other than future PM of Poland - Donald Tusk.
Germans stop it because they manage take Poland whole and they do not want to deal with mess on their own border at the time(thanks god).

>tfw you realize the fact we're not so keenly aware of intelligence agencies doing nasty stuff might not be because ours do it less

The real outrage is how the post-communist regime proved commies right about capitalism, then outlawed communism so Poles couldn't change things back. Even the shock therapy "democracy" only lasted like 20-25 years - it's the kind of thing that makes me think tankies had a point.

You are aware that Yugo wars thanks to direct meddling of Germany(mostly but not only), Qaddafi fall thanks to French(mostly but with significant USA portion) and Ukraine recent happenings thanks to Germany(and again USA)?.
Ukraine is rather interesting as the current den of Nationalist that tore the country was funded directly(less or more) by Euro/USA money for decades(before real thing happened)and the same goes for their militia arm?

Its more about capitalism proved commies right because they lack rival.
Capitalism always was a bout amassing capital and controlling workers but they used to did it with more finesse.
All that shit that happen to West and USA is thanks to West winning and felling the only big fish in the pond.
They have no need for making life better for working class anymore.

But that's us meddling with the politics of others, we expect CIA and the like to engage in such games due to geopolitics even if the actual methods are questionable at best. We don't know the details but we know there's something being done and often it's possible to argue it's in our interest.

What I was talking about was more about what unsavoury dealings our intelligence services may be involved in DOMESTICALLY, which seems to be a major issue in the former Eastern Bloc countries. After all it's not simply the KGB or the Russians messing with Poland or Romania, they had their own intelligence services who could prove to be the true movers and shakers of many ostensibly political events.

The thing with intelligence services is that they're really in the business of having dirt on people so they could in fact be all-important to the behind-the-scenes dealings of domestic politics in a way that's completely opaque to the public.

Because Eastern Euros lived under enemy occupation or under government that was not exactly theirs.
So if you have little common sense you distrust government and see that it works mostly for their own benefit(or benefit their real rulers).
Westerners lived in illusion that their government is theirs and work for them. Which of course is a delusion. Not always it was like that but now it is.

Agent Bolek

>Germany pushing for balkanization of Poland
That's complete nonsense. You have to provide a source, and not a shitty right wing blog.

Remember that the BRD didn't accept the Oder-Neisse line until unification

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Warsaw_(1970)
But yes, CDU and other right-wing parties weren't happy about this.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabinet_of_Jan_Olszewski

The dissolution of Olszewski's cabinet is the most important event in post-communist Poland. It's pretty much the founding myth of our current ruling party Law and Justice.

I also recommend reading this.
enrs.eu/en/articles/1516-the-consequence-of-the-system-transformation-of-1989-in-poland

>CDU
>right wing

Centre-right I guess? But they were more into the right in 1960s and 1970s.

That is not complete nonsense.
This actually make perfect sense if Germany planned at some point make opening in reclaiming Silesia/Pomerania.
It was considered and some steps were made as funding Silesian and Kashubian activist and pushing some people with right backgrounds into power.
Its just that they have problem at the time with absorbing Ost Germany and it cost much more than they expected and there was no need for it as Germany completely dominated Poland economically an politically.
They were/are more christian socialist than any form of right. Sure kind of conservative but economically socialists. But then we are going into the swamp of what is right and what is left in USA compared to Europe or any other part of the world.
In meme language it would be cuck party.

I still don't see any sources. I know about some very minor Silesian groups rambling about independence, but Kashubians were always loyal.

As right wing as the German political mainstream gets.

His museum in gdansk is fancy af

It was in early 90. More than 25 years ago. It was hot topic in local communities at the time.
Donald Tusk promoted idea of Autonomic/Independent Kashubia. He get rewarded for it later by getting chooses as PO leader and as PM of Poland.
In early 90 Poland suffer consequences of rapid privatization and nobody really know what future brings. They were some 'Poles'(both Silesian and Kashubian) that suddenly found their German roots and emigrated to Germany mostly for economic reasons.
If Poland now put emphasis on some Polish roots needed to get visa to Poland from Ukraine you would see plenty of Ukrainians founding some polish roots.
Heck whole Maidan start because of economic problems and hope that they get access to EU. With activist and militia prepared in previous decades.
If situation get really hard in Poland at that time and country failed like Ukraine now you could expect something like that happened with foreign backed separatist pushing for independence. Like it happen in Yugoslavia.

>Tell me about Lech Walesa.
they had cameras follow him around, and episodes of his life were streamed in real time
youtube.com/watch?v=ws5AIOW4nlw