The soviets had a plan to attack the Germans in 1942. The Nazis attacked first, and they failed...

Youre that faggot from the thread last night that kept stubbornly trying to shill the "soviets were just as bad!" line along with the "hitler did the right thing!" line

Operation 'Groza'
I think Suworow written about this. Icebreaker or something.
Good read.
I also remember reading about exercise in which Soviets attack Germany but get devastated by defenders lead by Zukow.

Icebreaker

of course hes not going to post any since he doesnt even read anything besides stormfront infographs

GERMANY DINDU NUTTIN

SOVIETS WERE GOING TO INVADE IN ANY CASE [citation needed]

God, is there anything more pathetic than German apologists?

Just did, retard.

Thanks I'll look it up now

>Icebreaker
"Icebreaker" is pretty weak in the evidence department, it's mostly speculative/hypothetical.

>Operation 'Groza'
Bunich is a lunatic, who among other things believes that Walther Schellenburg rose in the SD because Heydrich secretly had a Jewish grandfather and Hitler knew about it, so instead of dismissing him from the SS altogether, he just made him in charge of a different post.

>I think Suworow written about this. Icebreaker or something.
And it's been panned by every serious historian who touches it, in large part because he admits in the introduction that he ignored all evidence running contrary to his 'theory'.

Then you get actual scholarship like Stumbling Colossus, which goes in the entire other direction.

>Suworow
>Icebreaker
We Cold War american CIA propaganda now?

>It's wrong cuz I say so
Neck yourself, tankie

"Contrary, however, to scholars such as David Glantz, John D. Erickson, and Richard Overy, Meltyukhov concurs with Suvorov's claim that Stalin and the Soviet military leadership had planned an offensive against Nazi Germany in 1941. Meltyukhov suggests that, while both Soviet and German leaders were preparing covertly to attack each other, neither believed that the other side would strike first."

:Unlike many of Suvorov's books, such as Icebreaker (1987), Meltyukhov's book is based on materiel recovered from the archives of the Soviet Union, some of which remained classified for more than 50 years."

I meant 1941 sorry guys, my bad

I walked away from my computer for like 2 fucking minutes and this turned into a shit storm.

Hey I am not OP.
I read some o f his books and they were nice to read.
Plenty of small details dunno how reliable it was.
He draw some conclusions but its not my area of expertise.

Then why were there none of the preparations made that the Soviets historically did make before invading people like the Finns and the Romanians and the Poles? Why was artillery in the border zones separated from its organic transport? Why weren't infantry reserves massed near railheads? Why weren't they issued full complements of ammunition?

It's not particularly reliable; it fundamentally is of the /pol/ style "makes you think, doesn't it?" standard of argumentation. Find an abnormal detail, worry the hell at it, imply that this is the truth and all contrary evidence is either meaningless, a lie, or irrelevant, and then proclaim yourself right, despite not making a coherent narrative which accounts for all of the facts in question.

Contrary, however, to scholars such as David Glantz, John D. Erickson, and Richard Overy, Meltyukhov concurs with Suvorov's claim that Stalin and the Soviet military leadership had planned an offensive against Nazi Germany in 1941. Meltyukhov suggests that, while both Soviet and German leaders were preparing covertly to attack each other, neither believed that the other side would strike first.

Unlike many of Suvorov's books, such as Icebreaker (1987), Meltyukhov's book is based on materiel recovered from the archives of the Soviet Union, some of which remained classified for more than 50 years.

Books like Ice breaker, and the words at the top are from Wikipedia, I know that's not the most safe place to get info, however it's the best thing I could find on the internet.

Contrary, however, to scholars such as David Glantz, John D. Erickson, and Richard Overy, Meltyukhov concurs with Suvorov's claim that Stalin and the Soviet military leadership had planned an offensive against Nazi Germany in 1941. Meltyukhov suggests that, while both Soviet and German leaders were preparing covertly to attack each other, neither believed that the other side would strike first.

Unlike many of Suvorov's books, such as Icebreaker (1987), Meltyukhov's book is based on materiel recovered from the archives of the Soviet Union, some of which remained classified for more than 50 years.

>point out that a book is unsourced and full of speculation rather than proper evidence
>HURR, COMMUNIST

Icebreaker being a shitty history book is common consensus, you mouthbreathing retard.

Contrary, however, to scholars such as David Glantz, John D. Erickson, and Richard Overy, Meltyukhov concurs with Suvorov's claim that Stalin and the Soviet military leadership had planned an offensive against Nazi Germany in 1941. Meltyukhov suggests that, while both Soviet and German leaders were preparing covertly to attack each other, neither believed that the other side would strike first.

Unlike many of Suvorov's books, such as Icebreaker (1987), Meltyukhov's book is based on materiel recovered from the archives of the Soviet Union, some of which remained classified for more than 50 years.

Contrary, however, to scholars such as David Glantz, John D. Erickson, and Richard Overy, Meltyukhov concurs with Suvorov's claim that Stalin and the Soviet military leadership had planned an offensive against Nazi Germany in 1941. Meltyukhov suggests that, while both Soviet and German leaders were preparing covertly to attack each other, neither believed that the other side would strike first.

Unlike many of Suvorov's books, such as Icebreaker (1987), Meltyukhov's book is based on materiel recovered from the archives of the Soviet Union, some of which remained classified for more than 50 years.

Sorry I could not get back to you sooner, I walked away from my computer to cook some food, and I came back and it was a shit storm.

And I'll repeat my objection: The Soviets had certain preparations they made before invading places like Finland and Bessarabia; things like making sure their artillery units are paired with the trucks or at least horses that move them around, and massing infantry reserves near railheads for rapid reinforcement of advances. These were not done in 1941.

I actually was not, today was my first time getting on Veeky Forums in 2 months.

>Therefore, Meltyukhov claims, the explanations by Nazi leaders of a pre-emptive strike against the Soviet Union were groundless, since Hitler had regarded the concentration of Soviet troops as merely defensive. Operation Barbarossa was scheduled a long time before, and Hitler hadn't really comprehended the Soviet invasion threat. The concentration of Soviet troops was interpreted as a defensive reaction to the discovered Wehrmacht deployment. With regards to the failure of the Soviet leadership to comprehend the German threat, Stalin hadn’t believed Hitler was going to invade and risk war on two fronts.

Even Meltyukhov (whose basic premise is dubious and by no means generally accepted by academia) doesn't claim that Germany's invasion of the USSR was defensive.

Contrary, however, to scholars such as David Glantz, John D. Erickson, and Richard Overy, Meltyukhov concurs with Suvorov's claim that Stalin and the Soviet military leadership had planned an offensive against Nazi Germany in 1941. Meltyukhov suggests that, while both Soviet and German leaders were preparing covertly to attack each other, neither believed that the other side would strike first.

Unlike many of Suvorov's books, such as Icebreaker (1987), Meltyukhov's book is based on materiel recovered from the archives of the Soviet Union, some of which remained classified for more than 50 years.

Sorry I could not get back to you sooner

Contrary, however, to scholars such as David Glantz, John D. Erickson, and Richard Overy, Meltyukhov concurs with Suvorov's claim that Stalin and the Soviet military leadership had planned an offensive against Nazi Germany in 1941. Meltyukhov suggests that, while both Soviet and German leaders were preparing covertly to attack each other, neither believed that the other side would strike first.

Unlike many of Suvorov's books, such as Icebreaker (1987), Meltyukhov's book is based on materiel recovered from the archives of the Soviet Union, some of which remained classified for more than 50 years.

Sorry I could not get back to you sooner

You know, we could all read it the first fucking time.

Operation 'Groza is also another good read to get evidence on this topic

Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner

I think user is a bot that got some blue screen.

Some say this attack on Germany would happen in 1942 as well. This is the case because the Soviets expected the invasion of Finland would last less than a year, however as we know, that wasn't the case.

Sorry I answered your question so late, I did not see your post.

Operation 'Groza is also another good read to get evidence on this topic
Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner

Soviets never made any real plans to invade.
Stalin and Molotov have implied that in case of German aggression they might launch a preemptive strike against Germany but this was only in case that Germany threatens Soviet Union and they're bogged down in a war against west. Obviously the plan went to shit when Germans overran France. Their army reorganization and rearmament only happened because Soviets realized that Red Army was in no condition to wage war against a major power like Germany after Finland fiasco and was mainly to work as a deterrent against German aggression and for self defence.

>Some say this attack on Germany would happen in 1942 as well. This is the case because the Soviets expected the invasion of Finland would last less than a year, however as we know, that wasn't the case.
And there is no real evidence for this.

Every "revisionist" in this vein uses the exact same logic. Soviets did X, I have decided that X is an aggressive move, the Soviets would not have made aggressive moves towards Germany if they were not planning an attack, therefore, the Soviets were planning an attack.

That is a much weaker chain of logic than actually looking to what the Soviets really actually did before invading people in that time frame, and then looking for matches with the border of the Soviet and German spheres of influence. And when you look at it like that, you find very little in the way of aggressive posturing.

And when you push it off to some later date, such that preparations of invasion would not be there or not be noticeable, you've essentially made an unfalsifiable argument.

If you want more books to read on this topic, these are also good reads

Dębski, Sławomir. Między Berlinem a Moskwą: Stosunki niemiecko-sowieckie 1939–1941. Warsaw: Polski Instytut Spraw Międzynarodowych, 2003 (ISBN 83-918046-2-3).
Reviewed by R.C. Raack in The Russian Review, 2004, Vol. 63, Issue 4, pp. 718–719.
Edwards, James B. Hitler: Stalin's Stooge. San Diego, CA: Aventine Press, 2004 (ISBN 978-1593301446, paperback).

Also these
("June 25 : foolishness or aggression?") — Moscow: «Яyзa», «Экcмo». 2008. ISBN 978-5-699-25300-5
"Июнь 41-гo. Oкoнчaтeльный диaгнoз" ("June 41. The final diagnosis") — Moscow: «Яyзa», «Экcмo». 2013. ISBN 978-5-699-67335-3
"Die drei Plane des Genossen Stalin" (publication in "Die Rote Walze") - Germany, publishing house «Pour le Merite», 2011. ISBN 978-3-932381-60-7
Topitsch, Ernst. Stalin's War: A Radical New Theory of the Origins of the Second World War. New York: Palgrave Macmillan, 1987 (ISBN 0-312-00989-5).
Reviewed critically by Alexander Dallin in The New York Times, November 15, 1987.
Weeks, Albert L. Stalin's Other War: Soviet Grand Strategy, 1939–1941. Lanham, MD: Rowman & Littlefield, 2002 (hardcover; ISBN 0-7425-2191-5); 2003 (paperback, ISBN 0-7425-2192-3).

I can mention books too, especially without mentioning content. You're not making any sort of persuasive argument, user. What makes any of the above better than say, Glantz's work?

As Meltyukhov asserts with his study, the General Staff of the Red Army had already begun developing a plan for an assault on Germany in October 1939. This process intensified in March 1940, and at least four different versions of the plan were developed throughout 1940 and 1941. The concentration of troops was disguised as maneuvers; in May/June 1941 the preparation for a Soviet invasion of Germany reached the final stage, as the full-scale concentration of troops began.

If they were so ready to attack then why the fuck did the Red Army got completely btfo by German invasion? You'd think if they were prepared, they'd stop the Germans sooner rather than just at the outskirts of Moscow.

It is worth mentioning that the draft plan from March 11, 1941 demanded to "start the offensive [on] 12.6.", which in Meltyukhov's opinion should refute Gorodetsky's [9] affirmation that the draft assumed defensive strategy.[10] As it is known, the precise date of the outbreak of war is determined by the side which plans to strike first. Thus, the author thinks that the idea that the Red Army must strike first (clearly formulated in Zhukov's plan from May 15, 1941) was in a concealed form already present in all the previous drafts.

As for the usual suggestions that the Red Army was preparing a counteroffensive, a possible Wehrmacht invasion is suggested in plans cited by Meltyukhov, but with obvious lack of depth: the estimation of the enemy's intentions, with exception of the possible direction of the main attack, did not undergo substantial changes. Furthermore, Meltyukhov claims those plans did not proceed from factual data and two possible Wehrmacht assault directions (Southern version, through Ukraine and Northern version, through Lithuania and Latvia, the latter being abandoned later) were taken into consideration, while an assault on Belarus was excluded without any reason. Thus, one might wonder if this was merely guess-work. Aleksandr Vasilevsky has recalled himself[11] that there was no straight answer to the probability of a German invasion, nor was a possible timing discussed.[12] This fact and the absence of a connection between a possible strike by the enemy and the actions of the Red Army makes the suggestion of a 'counter-strike strategy' very implausible to Meltyukhov.[13]

And again, how is he answering the question that there was an obvious lack of the same kinds of preparations that the Red Army historically made before invading other places? Why aren't you answering this?

Because the Red Army didn't expect the Germans to attack, as they had their hands full with the African front, and the battle of Britain.

>"May/June 1941 the preparation for a Soviet invasion of Germany reached the final stage, as the full-scale concentration of troops began" But they did

Not him, but the African front committed an entire 3 divisions, and the Battle of Britian had ended long before late June of 1941. He's got a point, if the Soviets were getting ready for action, why were they so haphazard in their ability to actually fight the Germans? Why were units so out of contact with each other? Why were so few of them actually issued their equipment?

>A lot of troops on the border
Is not preparation to invade. By that 'logic', the Soviets were preparing to invade Manchuria starting sometime in 1938.

I'm talking REAL preparations. Massing of troops near railheads, buildups of supplies and actually issuing them to troops. Making sure the stuff in inventory is in working order, actually making sure your heavy guns that supply most of your firepower have the means to move around. The Soviets did none of these things for May/June '41, and it's one of the reasons they got plastered so hard. They did them when gearing up to attack other places. Why not now?

They were, they were very fully aware of the German buildup and their recon aircraft violating their airspace countless time.
Stalin knew Red Army wasn't ready and tried to appease Hitler by sending resources like Oil and Grain to him for almost free of charge. He thought Hitler would take the bait and postpone his attack. He wanted to stall till 1941 Autumn when offensive operations would be difficult to launch so the Red Army can be better prepared in 1942.
Zhukov and other Generals realized what was happening and were begging to launch a preemptive strike (which was denied and would have been a failure anyway because of the sorry state of Red Army in 1941)
>they had their hands full with the African front, and the battle of Britain.
African front was always seen as irrelevant with only a few German divisions being sent there and Battle of Britain ended in 1940 autumn

Not many of them were issued equipment because they ran out of equipment because of the invasion of Finland were they ran their equipment dry. This is one of the reasons the Germans had the ability to attack first, the Russians needed more equipment to take on the well trained army of Nazi Germany.

Of course they were preparing to invade Manchuria, the Molotov pact wasn't signed at that time I believe. So if the Soviets were going to invade Manchuria the Germans would obviously get involved, which caused a build up on the German border by 1940/1941

>Not many of them were issued equipment because they ran out of equipment because of the invasion of Finland were they ran their equipment dry.
This is wrong. The Soviets had a lot of equipment, especially in the form of things like tanks and automatic weapons. They simply were kept in depots and not issued to troops.

When Barbarossa historically happens, and the Germans capture ridiculous quantities of equipment, where exactly do you think it's coming from?

they didn't run out of equipment
their had lots of equipment but it was just shit, like most of their airforce were obsolete biplanes and I-16 fighters that were used in SCW
their tanks were shitty T-26 and BTs with only a few handful of T-34s and KVs

>Of course they were preparing to invade Manchuria,
Which is of course why they didn't until 1945 and the Americans begged them to do so.

> the Molotov pact wasn't signed at that time I believe
The MOlotov pact mentions nothing about affairs in Asia.

>So if the Soviets were going to invade Manchuria the Germans would obviously get involved
Why would they?

> which caused a build up on the German border by 1940/1941
How is the alleged Soviet plan to invade Manchuria in 1938 leading to the MR pact and in turn leading to the violation of the pact (by both parties, according to your allegations) in 40-41?

>can we talk about this hypothetical scenario?
>REEEEEEEEE HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST THAT THE ALLIES COULD POSSIBLY HAVE DONE ANYTHING WRONG

I guess it's impossible to have real discussion about WW2 on this board.

Germany would help Japan because they both shared hatred of The Soviets (Molotov pact was signed to keep peace until the Germans invaded in 1941) And yes the Molotov pact does not mention about affairs in Asia however the pact made it so if either side invaded it would break the pact. And it caused a build on the border because the build on the Manchurian border threatened Japanese sovereignty. And the reason the Soviets wanted to invade Manchuria is because of tense Imperial Japanese and Soviet relations.

Nobody's talking about a hypothetical scenario. OP is literally suggesting that there historically was a plan to attack Germany in 1941-42, and that Barbarossa was pre-emptive.

>Germany would help Japan because they both shared hatred of The Soviets
This is at the same time Germany is helping China against Japan. Somehow, I doubt they'll just switch horses like that.

>And yes the Molotov pact does not mention about affairs in Asia however the pact made it so if either side invaded it would break the pact.
sourcebooks.fordham.edu/mod/1939pact.html

Really? Where? I don't see anything about breaking the pact if either party invades a third.

>And it caused a build on the border because the build on the Manchurian border threatened Japanese sovereignty.
Retard. I'm asking how alleged Soviet plans to invade Manchuria led to a buildup on the Nazi-Soviet border.

>. And the reason the Soviets wanted to invade Manchuria is because of tense Imperial Japanese and Soviet relations.
That's awfully circular. And also completely unsupported.

I am only claiming that the Germans attacked first, but the Germans did not know about the soviet plan. What the Germans did was fucking terrible and we all need to know that. As I have stated, both sides hated each other, and both sides knew peace couldn't last, it's just that the Germans attacked first.

OP literally asks what would happen, hypothetically, if the soviets attacked first.

he Soviet–Japanese border conflicts (also known as the Soviet-Japanese Border War) was a series of battles and skirmishes between the forces of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the Empire of Japan, as well as their respective puppet states of Mongolia and Manchukuo. Lasting from 1932 to 1939, most of the conflicts were small border skirmishes until May 1939, with the notable exception of the Battle of Lake Khasan. The Border War was resolved in a series of engagements at Khalkin-Gol, where the Soviets inflicted a decisive defeat on the Japanese. This resulted in the Soviet-Japanese Neutrality Pact. It should not be confused with the conflict in August 1945 when the Soviet Union declared war in support of the other Allies of World War II and launched the Manchurian Strategic Offensive Operation.

There was tense relations between russia and japan

>The soviets had a plan to attack the Germans in 1942. The Nazis attacked first, and they failed.
That's a statement of fact, user.

By 1940 the Japanese joined the Axis powers

So why is it, that after winning at Khalkin Gol fairly decisively, the Soviets (who, because they had troops on the border, are CLEARLY planning to invade and take over Manchuria) didn't follow up their success and have it all?

Could it be, that maybe, just maybe, the Soviets were not in fact interested in expansion there? After all, we only have zero expressed interest in doing so from any source whatsoever. But of course they had troops on the border, so I guess none of that matters.

There is literally no documentary evidence of this, it's purely CONNECT THE DOTS SHEEPLE type reasoning associated largely with one fringe historian named Viktor Suvorov.
Given the opening of Soviet archives in the 1990s (they remain partially open today), the level of falsification of documents that would be required to conceal something as massive as a full-scale Soviet offensive into Central Europe is beyond all practicality.
Not to mention the massive circumstantial evidence that all has to be explained away for this theory to work. Why would the Soviets attack just before their modernization of the Tank Corps kicked in, while they were delivering huge amounts of raw materials to Germany on credit, etc.
The Soviets were not about to invade Central Europe in 1942.

Japanese got their ass kicked in Khalkin-Gol and a neutrality pact was signed
What do Soviets have to gain by breaking it and waging a war in Far East (which would be a hell logistics wise) when there's an aggressive Nazi Germany in the West?

But we're talking about 1938 here, when the Soviets began their buildup on the Japanese/Manchurian border.

you do realize that in 1938 there were massive purges in the Red Army and not even Stalin was mad enough to commit a demoralized Red Army to an offensive war at the time?

This is going to be my last response

Taking everything into account, Meltyukhov claims that though an "offensive by the Red Army would not have led to the immediate solution on the outcome of war, […] the Red Army could have been in Berlin no later than in 1942, which would have made it possible to gain much greater territory in Europe under the control of Moscow, than it really did in 1945." (Meltyukhov 2000:506)

So, wait, you mean to say that the sending of troops to the border ISN'T proof of intent to invade? Then what the hell are you basing your entire case on?

that's awfully optimistic because on the reasons why Red Army was so successful was because they considered it a defensive Patriotic War - a war for their Motherland and people. If they launch an offensive against well prepared German troops and suffer huge casualties, it would just be Winter War v2, except Germans have the capacity to wage a war longer than 3 months.

they sent troops to deter any Japanese attack, are you that retarded to not be able to grasp that concept?

Either you, or someone else claimed back here that that

>Of course they were planning to invade Manchuria, (sometime in 1938 in response to )

Based entirely on the logic that "putting troops on the border is intent to invade".I was arguing against such idiotic reasoning, and showing how the buildup of Soviet troops on the Manchurian border was done in spite of the fact that the Soviets did not in fact have plans to invade Manchuria.

i don't know why you replied to me desu
I just said that it's unlikely they'd invade anyone because of the purges at the time

Because the entire time I've been arguing that the presence of troops on the border is not in fact proof of intent to invade anyone.

So is there actually any evidence the soviets were going to attack in 42?

>Suworow
Stopped paying attention to OP here. Looks like Veeky Forumsfags can't into source evaluation and critical thinking

No. Groza Theory has no documental backing behind it, but it became popular during Perestroika and early postsoviet period thanks to Victor Suvorov, Igor Bunich and S.S. Zakharevich.