Operation Market Garden

I think he means Monty's refusal to close the Falaise Gap which is understandable in context, but really inexcusable in hindsight.

Yeah, it was a failure, but I think it was the most A E S T H E T I C battle

> and massively stronger than expected opposition

Monty was expecting German reserve units in the area at first, but received multiple accurate reports from both American and British intelligence that the German forces in the area were far stronger than he supposed from what appear o have been literal guesses. I don't mean two or three reports, but literal weeks of reports all saying that resistance was going to be heavy and that the Germans were well-prepared to defend the intended areas. Monty had an axe to grind against the Americans who had beaten him to Tunisia, Palermo, and Normandy. He threw lives away because he wanted to be the guy who organized the operation that ended the war, and it turned out that his being a butthurt dickhead cost thousands of lives needlessly.

>when you realize Anne Frank died in part because of the failure of Operation Market Garden

feelsbadman

Market-Garden is my favorite action of the war. The commanders were all larger than life. The battle played out like a movie with weird bit parts from villagers.

Fun fact to make you feel. Not only were the Polish airborne practically wiped out. Not only did perfidious Albion throw them under the bus. After the war the soldiers weren't even allowed to enter polish soil or even be buried there until the communists fell. I almost cry imagining it.

>fight the whole war and somehow survive
>after all that blood, death and terror your homeland you fought for is denied
>regal your children with fantastic but true stories of the war
>get old and just wish to die on the soil you left so long ago, that your children and grandchildren only imagine if they bother
>denied
>die in exile, only remembered as a tragic footnote, only to return home far too late.

Poland is a big fucking loser in WW2. However since I have polish friends, who doesn't in the EU, they often talk of the western betrayal of Poland when the Soviets ate them.
I mean, what were they supposed to have done about it?

Churchill sacrificed the Empire to save Poland and yet failed to do so. So by that standard the British failed at their war goals they didn't preserve the Empire in the face of German aggression, they failed to contain Germany as a European power and they failed to guarantee Polands independence. All that blood for nothing

>Dutch resistance were unable to provide the sort of invaluable aid their French counterparts had provided for the invasion of Normandy
Another example of French superiority, and another blow to the Polish meme that the French didn't have a useful resistance

Funnily enough the whole Western Betrayal thing was really heavily promoted by the communist government

Okay, literally what the fuck is with this guy?

I'm waiting for him to join the hallowed ranks of Ray and NBF as a name/tripfag

Dude, were you like waiting for this tread or something? Like, 4 minutes after the question with a super relevant picture and everything.

Fuck I literally never thought about this before

nah, he obviously meant this.

youtube.com/watch?v=lLiRgNFvfGw

>How did they become so cruel?

Monty should be have been courtmarshalled, not celebrated.
The praise he got for El Alamein is wholy undeserved. He fucked up almost everything after and sacrificed tens of thousand for his massive ego.

Bullshit

Monty was fucking warned that there was a division there but he didn't want to hear it.

I made a thread comparing Market Garden and the Maryland Campaign a few months ago.

Really? Because I've always thought about it like that.

Anne Frank was deported from Westerbork on September 3rd (14 days before Market Garden began) on one of the last three trains carrying Jews out of the Netherlands. Additional transports were planned for late September but were immediately suspended after the first Allied troops entered the Netherlands on September 17th. As a result, most of the people still being held at Westerbork after September 3rd, 1944 survived to the end of the war.

If Market Garden had succeeded, been launched ahead of schedule or Operation Comet (the original plan for airborne drops into the Netherlands, scheduled for September 2nd) been initiated on time, it's very likely Anne Frank would have survived.

I imagine a lot of survivors of 1st Airborne were heartbroken reading her diary a few years later, realizing she and countless others might've lived had they held that Bridge for just another day.

>I imagine a lot of survivors of 1st Airborne were heartbroken reading her diary a few years later, realizing she and countless others might've lived had they held that Bridge for just another day.
I doubt they'd give a shit about some random jewish girl when their buddies were being killed left and right

She was already in route to Auschwitz though. The only way I see her living is if Market Garden is such a success that Bergen-Belsen is shut down before she can be transferred, which I find pretty unlikely.

Ffs monty you prick

All the more tragic. If their buddies had died and Market Garden had succeeded, it could be said at the very least that their deaths achieved something. The fact they failed and in doing so, indirectly condemned millions more to death meant their sacrifice had been for nothing.

If the Allies had gotten across the Rhine and poured into the Ruhr Valley as planned, Bergen-Belsen (which along with other concentration camps supplied labor for the German war industry, including the Ruhr) would've been within striking distance of the Allies months earlier. Not to mention if the Ruhr had fallen, Germany's already failing war production would have collapsed even further, rending their forces (losing hundreds of vehicles and thousands of men by the day) unable to maintain themselves in the field, meaning the Red Army would've been free to continue its advance through Poland and Auschwitz would've liberated earlier too.

Yeah but if Anne Frank hadn't died there would be no ITAOTS

And the world would be a better place for it...

Patrician-tier tastes in video games and music

youtube.com/watch?v=NxUJDpWV3kg

yes

Would Market Garden have turned out any differently if it had been the 82nd or 101st Airborne assigned to take Arnhem and 1st Airborne sent to Eindhoven/Nijmegen or would John Frost Bridge just be named after Richard Winters instead?

>tfw gearbox learned they could make infinite money with absolutely no effort from making retard colorful rng simulator every year and no brothers in arms game will ever be made again

Feelsbadman

The wiki page for gearbox says that they're currently working on a "true" new brothers in arms game. Though I don't know if it'll ever actually see the light of day.

Which infuriates me because the last game hinted at a battle of the bulge campaign.

>"You've been through hell Baker, but how do you feel about snow?"
>"I can handle snow."

More like Dutch resistance was fucking useless. The Dutch had more collaborators per capita than any other Western occupied nation.

Probably not, 1st Airborne fought well, but they were in impossible situation.

under the leadership of Randy Pitchcuck, it's going to be Colonial Marines tier bad
let it stay dead for it's own good

Well the 101st and 82nd had the advantage of being both better equipped in terms of small arms (that would have made a minor difference in the streets of Arnhem) and had more recent combat experience, having taken part in the Normandy Landings months prior. 1st Airborne on the other hand hadn't been in combat for over a year (their last major action prior to Market Garden was Operation Slapstick in September 1943) and more importantly, had never jumped together as a division. Likewise, General Roy Urquhart had never received airborne training and had only been very recently promoted.

I'm not saying Urquhart and 1st Airborne didn't fight well or bravely, not at all. But the 101st and 82nd would have been able to fight more effectively and that could have made all the difference.

If Monty was a twat and insisted that Arnhem just HAD to be taken by a British unit, 6th Airborne would've been the better choice. They had extensive combat experience and had taken part in Operation Deadstick, an operation with a very similar objective to Market Garden (seizing a major river crossing before it could be destroyed)

WW2 shooters have always been ass.

I can't think of one WW2 shooter that holds up.

>I can't think of one WW2 shooter that holds up.

>tfw your unit survives the level without a single loss

>tfw your unit survives the level without a single loss

Authentic mode? It took me three years to finish the game on Authentic.

BiA is really mediocre though
Gunplay is ass, levels are boring as fuck, graphics are mediocre even by 2005 standards, weapons sound like garbage peashooters. Even the story (if you can call it that) is kind of crap and basic. I feel that people only like it because of nostalgia and that it was "different" from other WW2 shooters like CoD and MoH, so they want to feel contrarian for liking it.

The fire-and-maneuver, flanking, and squad based gameplay were really fun.

When you and your assault team wipe out an entire squad after leaving them no route for escape, it really feels like you accomplished something.

Get bent. Squad commands and fire and maneuver sold it. Instead of running and gunning.

Getting hit in BiA is really serious business.

>UK is perfidious for a mission going wrong
>UK is to blame for the Soviet Union

Anything to hate on England, Right boys?

it would be decent if the maps weren't always so fucking obvious about their placement with a clear view of where to put your fire squad and where to flank with your assault squad. it's either a gap in some brick wall or a conveniently placed gap in a hedgerow just where the enemy squad is sitting. Also the AI is retarded and will do absolutely nothing to do prevent you outflanking it

I have a solution to that. A Final Solution.

moddb.com/mods/rendrocs-warzone

I loved that mod

The Allies sold out Poland because FDR was fucking retarded when it came to dealing with Stalin

FDR was just a retard when it came to foreign policy affairs in general.

wtf is up with the character models? I remember them being a lot nicer.

>pro-confederate but anti-nazi

>Confederates are pro-States' Rights, pro-separation of powers, semi-philosemitic, and anti-consolidation of authority with the national government
>Nazis are literally the exact opposite of all of those

Doesn't take a genius to figure out that in the non-shitty-version-of-Southern Victory timeline that the Confederate States of America and Nazi Germany would not be friends.

>inb4 obligatory whining leftist "muh whyte supremacy" reply

White supremacist thought was historically ingrained in American society as well and we went to war with Germany all the same.

Supreme taste you have there anons.
youtube.com/watch?v=pXxaFuuAWf0

Literally how retarded do you have to be to think that the Confederates were Nazis?

>le relentless german assaults

the 12th SS panzers RECON BAT. attempted to cross for 1 day, that means armored cars/light panzers, then they just shelled the shit out of the brits from house to house

this operation was dubious even without the SS Panzer Corp in the area, but since they were there, it had no chance of success, the panzer battalions didnt even engage the allies because they didnt have to

its a success for a dumb american redneck because he cant read books for shit

Because they're fucking white males

Detected the libtard

>"In all my years as a soldier, I have never seen men fight so hard." - Commenting on the British Paratroopers at Arnhem (September 1944)

>"Other visits (to the front) showed me that efforts were being made on the Western Front to arrive at understandings with the enemy on special problems. At Arnhem, I found General Bittrich of the Waffen-SS in a state of fury. The day before, his Second Tank Corps had virtually wiped out a British airborne division. During the fighting the general had made an arrangement permitting the enemy to run a field hospital situated behind the German lines. But party functionaries had taken it upon themselves to kill British and American pilots, and Bittrich was cast in the role of a liar. His violent denunciation of the party was all the more striking since it came from an SS general." -Albert Speer

Arnhem was practically burnt to the ground during the fighting. I'd call that pretty relentless.

>this operation was dubious even without the SS Panzer Corp in the area, but since they were there, it had no chance of success

To the Brits' credit. If Frost's battalion had managed to hold out another 24 hours they would have been reinforced by the Polish airborne and XXX Corps would've arrived shortly thereafter (XXX Corps could've driven on to Arnhem the night before 2nd Parachute Battalion surrendered, but Horrocks decided his men were too exhausted to risk it, a decision that he took flak for the rest of his life).

The biggest problem with Market Garden IMO was what the Allies were planning to do afterward. There was no way the Germans were going to let them roll straight into the Ruhr without a fight. XXX Corps would've either been stopped short of it or the Germans would have directed Watch on the Rhine (already in the planning stages) against the Netherlands instead. Given how precarious the situation on Hell's Highway was during Market Garden, it's very likely XXX Corps would've been cut off from the rest of the Allied armies and suffered a disaster many times the size of Arnhem.

cont.

I could absolutely see the Germans panicking and trying to destroy the newly captured Arnhem bridge with any and all weapons at their disposal just like they did at Remagen and since the Germans had not yet exhausted their remaining offensive strength (the Ardennes more or less did that), it's likely they would have succeeded. The Americans did eventually lose the Remagen bridge in part to German air and artillery attacks despite lining both sides of the Rhine with AA guns with orders to shoot down all approaching aircraft.

Perhaps you're right.

Well fascism was defeated and the Nazi genocides were ended, so that's something.

>your plan fails
>blame the guy who was skeptical about it from the very beginning but still fought on the frontlines

Huh..

Tbf wasn't that more the case of Guy Simonds lying his ass off to Monty and Kitching fucking up in turn trying to do a role his division was totally not equipped to do?

Now I am a Monty hater but Falaise was not his fault it was more retarded British military aristocracy.

Kek

>implying that's a bad thing

NMH is cancer. Jeff Mangum's brain power would've been better spent on applying himself in college and becoming a physicist or something.

Montgomery was a greedy fool, the war would have actually been over by christmas had he made realistic and achievable objectives.

i can only repeat myself, it was the recon regiment of the SS division, not the grenadier regminents, not the panzers, its armored cars and halftracks whose objective is scouting/raiding/patroling

after the regiment leader dies they start shelling the houses brits use as cover

>after the regiment leader dies they start shelling the houses brits use as cover

Whether death comes from a shell or bullet makes little difference to the victim. My point still stands. Frost's men were subjected to intense and murderous fire and managed to withstand it for four days. Much longer than could've been expected of them.

And the SS were involved in more than just Frost at the bridge, they were also fighting the rest of 1st Airborne and eventually forced them into a narrow pocket at Oosterbeek where it held out until evacuated.

Also 12th SS never took part in the battle of Arnhem, it was the 9th SS reconnaissance battalion that attempted to cross the bridge while returning from Nijmegen.

can be said about any besieged town or encircled pocket, with the difference those usually last weeks

>101st Airborne had to capture three bridges
>took all but one intact on the first day
>were able to put up a Bailey Bridge within 24 hours to compensate
>82nd Airborne had to capture two bridges
>took one on the first day, but failed to take the second one
>had to take the most important bridge on the third day, by which point it was already too late for the British at Arnhem
>1st Airborne had to capture just one bridge
>only a small detachment managed to capture the Northern end and surrendered it after several days (why they weren't compelled to fight to the death since it might mean a swift end to the war I will never understand)
>rest of the division was cut off and promptly massacred

How is it that the division with the most difficult mission (seizing three crossings that are miles apart simultaneously) managed to be the most successful? 101st were with the exception of the Son bridge accomplished all of their goals in a timely fashion and more. It seems as if the other units dropped the ball in one way or another (1st Airborne failed to move on the bridge in sufficient numbers to hold it, 82nd Airborne failed to capture the most critical objective until the third day, XXX Corps failed to push on to Arnhem after taking Nijmegen despite having the momentum).

The number is irrelevant. Most German strength in the south was either at the frontline at the British bridgehead (assorted infantry) or in reserve to northwest of the American landing zones (luftwaffe conscripts, 6th Fallschimjager, assorted infantry, Panzerjagers). Those forces werent in any position to block any bridge except the westernmost one at Best. The most fierce bridge fight the 101st fought was at Best, which wasnt even used because they just built the Son Bailey Bridge.

The 82nd was completely misused. That they seized the other two bridges was negated by posting two thirds of the division in Grossbeek rather than advancing on the bridge. Had the bridge been attacked immediately after landing, there would have been no opposition. They would have had to deal with the 10th SS anyway, but it would have been on the other side of the bridge.

1st Airborne dropped right on top of the 16th SS's training unit and the 9th SS was parked very close by. People shit on them getting held up and yes, they could have been more aggressive, but they also had fewer men in their first drop than the other divisions. They didnt have a real number advantage at the outset - there werent enough transports and they were given lowest priority.

Everyone couldnt blitz to the bridge like Frost did, the front was too narrow. Indeed, they tried to pile everyone in through the riverside buildings and got cut up by flank fire because they didnt clear the north side of the railroad tracks. They ideally should have pressed the whole west side of Arnhem, but given the whole 9th SS was in the way they didnt have enough men to spread the attack out like that. Indeed, Frost only got through because the 9th SS didnt block the riverside and was focussed on the railroad.

Red Orchestra my man

>command paramilitary force staffed by fanatical party loyalists
>be surprised when they start misbehaving

Imagine my fucking shock.

>How is it that the division with the most difficult mission (seizing three crossings that are miles apart simultaneously) managed to be the most successful?
C U R R A H E E

>FDR
You mean Churchill. Churchill was the one that sold Eastern Europe so Britain could have a free hand in Greece. Not even memeing.

The impression I have is that it was Monty refusing to push the Canadian divisions up, but it's based on memoirs of people at SHAEF, not people who were there so dunno.

>the slavs are subhuman
>l-lemme just u-use this rifle they invented...I mean I'm not saying they m-made a better one than us I mean obviously they c-could never make anything better than us I'm just...out of ammo, yeah, I'm out of ammo n' stuff....

Eternal Anglo AKA Monty got butthurt Americans were winning their war for them and through a bitch fit

Cuckfederates were just hick plantation owner who thought that slaves are the most efficient way
I wouldnt trust a country being by dumbass who thought that cotton is so important that they barely farmed anything else

>shit we have a supply problem going on in the front what should we do with these mobile yet lightly armed paratroopers
>instead of capturing the scheldt estuary to reopen shipping in Antwerp how about we try a risky drop on a gambit to appease dumbass public leaders

all around me are familiar faces, worn out places, worn out faces...

>american generals threatened to quit the war if someone didn't reign in Monty's shit talking
>monty is promptly told to shut the fuck up

*threw

Jesus Christ, my bad

bump; want to make a contribution to this thread, as I did my military history final dissertation on Garden specifically a few years back, and analysis of XXX Corps' divisions (UK based, so access to all the divisional war diaries)

probs will have to leave it to tomorrow tho as I will have to find my notes...

In the meantime, here's a useful bibliography that outlines the historiographical development of Market Garden if people were interested:

http://
www.ibrarian.net/navon/paper/BIBLIOGRAPHY_Campaign___Battle_Series_OPERATION_M.pdf?paperid=17785715

SOBEL DID NOTHING WRONG

Well, couldn't read a fucking map, so he did that wrong.

Bittrich was a pretty cool guy.

Yeah but he was literally in the SS, a card-carrying Nazi.

I'm inclined to believe the II SS Panzer Corps had such respect for their Paratrooper opponents because of some Nazi "Ubermensch" thing, where they respected martial strength as proof of genetic superiority or something, so they felt obligated to respect the Airborne for being so good at fighting.

What would Patton's push to the Siegfried Line have looked like with Eisenhower had approved that plan instead?

>Murdering wounded PoWs
>""""""Misbehaving""""""

AFAIK Monty wanted to close it up, ordered the II Canadian Corps to go for it. The I. Polish Pancerna took up one side and the 4th Canadian was supposed to take up the other.

The problem began when Kitching (general of the 4th Canaidan Armoured) couldn't even control the division (Simonds had all the units of his Corps besides the Pancerna report to him personally rather then their Division level general) cause and they nearly got wiped out by the I SS Corps and he wasn't ordering responses never mind that they were inexperienced rookies and another corps or even division (as Armored corps are bad at holding areas without infantry, who knew?) could have easily done a better job at holding this .

The I. Pancerna who had more autonomy tried to keep it closed by itself but couldn't.

Guy Simmonds then cried to Monty and blamed the Americans and Kitching,

The British general staff was fucking autistic.