1. Rows don't work the latissimi dorsi through their full range of motion. In fact, even if your back is fully horizontal while rowing, your ROM is only half (90° vs. ~180°). Not convinced this matters? Read this: bretcontreras.com/partial-vs-full-reps-or-both/ Even worse, when your elbow travels behind your body, tension on the lats is lost, because the lats cannot hyperextend the shoulder. Oh and if your program has a 'back' day, do you even functional anatomy? Read this: simplyshredded.com/muscle-specific-hypertrophy-biceps-back-and-legs-by-menno-henselmans.html
2. Free weight rows have an open kinetic chain, which means force transfer is not maximal and muscle activity is limited compared to exercises like pull-ups. This is also supported by EMG studies. Don't know what a kinetic chain or tissue stress distribution is? Read this to become aware:
3. Rows have a constant resistance curve. This is highly inefficient, because your body has a decreasing strength curve during pulling motions. This is why the last part of a row feels so heavy and in the first part you barely feel any resistance. And your lats don't get trained effectively. Not convinced by science? See attachment for a picture of my back after years of rowing and deadlifting AKA traditional bro back training compared to now, after years of training with biomechanically optimized exercises
Stop being a fag and tell us what exercises you did then
Hudson Cruz
>after year of rows >100 lbs What?Even if that is dumbell row thats weak as fuck. Piss off with your shitty article. Back is not just lats which pullups are most effective,i'd like to see how you train your traps,lowerback,posterior deltoids etc.. with pullups.
Mason Taylor
I'm a home gym fag.
I only did weighted chinups and pullups for a long time and had a really good back.
Then I started doing barbell rows, but I couldn't do them well, they fucked with my hamstrings too much.
So I bought a pair of olympic dumbells and started doing 1 arm rows. Definitely improved my back over just doing vertical pulling.
Thomas Adams
Solution: Do both rows and pullups. Wow, that was fucking hard.
Carter Johnson
So rows are not the best back builder, what is then? Please finish your thought.
Sebastian Lee
Pull ups.
I bet you do dips,skullcrushers,kickbacks and tricep extension in the same workout too.
Ryder Nguyen
Im not that guy But I also do standing barbell rows. >This is why the last part of a row feels so heavy and in the first part you barely feel any resistance.
100% Agree with this. I also do Pullups at the same day. But I will never ever do a Pull workout without Diddylifts
Aaron Hall
Pull-ups work more on the lateral muscle, while rows (when done correctly) work the parts closer to the spine. They're not equivalent exercises, nor can you substitute one for the other.
The reason why the rows get so much flak is that no one does them correctly. No, fucking, one. Normal rows (the ones every fucking gym in the world does) are already difficult enough to use effectively, but Veeky Forums creams itself over Pendlay Rows, a variant that is absurdly bad for you if:
1 - You don't have the flexibility to be bent over 90° with your spine perfectly straight 2 - You have anterior pelvic tilt, something like 90% of computer-addled Veeky Forums users have, since it's caused by forward head posture 3 - You don't have the flexibility to make your hands go PAST your chest when lifting your elbows behind your back, something that's difficult for most people WITHOUT any weight 4 - You have any kind of spine posture alteration (lordosis, kyphosis, scoliosis, etc)
Regular pendlays will fuck up your lower back more than 4pl8 squatting with bad form unless you have OLY-tier perfect form. You would need a spotter using a fucking architect level on you at all times to ensure the exercise is doing ANYTHING without fucking your spine up worse than having lordosis while doing OHP.
Hudson Evans
For the longest time all I did was chinups and pullups. My back progress was really good.
Then I introduced dumb-bell rows on top of that and my back definitely improved by 15% or so, especially in the rear delt area.
Ryan Morales
can you suggest accessory movements for pullups?
ive been doing 3xf sets of pullups, along with assisted pullups to finish it off
Jason Young
And here's a post written by someone who has absolutely no clue what theyre talking about
Dylan Anderson
prove it.
Ayden Gray
You said rows work muscle closer to the spine.
Not exactly 100% right.
My rear delts exploded when I started doing Dumbell Rows (after only doing chinups and pullups for so long)
Gabriel Nelson
Your anecdotal evidence doesn't do much against the objective fact that rows were made to work on the inner delts. It's the reason why you're supposed to close your shoulderblades when at the top of the movement.
Caleb Jenkins
>prove it. >posts this Fucking hell...
Ian Sullivan
>kinetic chain
Nice shilling Rippletits
Chase Lopez
>37403145
i'm not the guy who called you out.
im just talking from my own anecdotal
Isaac Reed
>inner delts What.
Ian Lopez
>inner delts
Alexander Bailey
>How you train your traps, lowerback, posterior deltoids etc.. with pullups.
>Traps, read delts A properly excecuted chinup has shoulder extension at the end of the movement, with higher rom than rows actually >Lowerback, traps Deadlifts train them way better than rows anyway
If you do deadlifts and chinups, there is literally zero reason to row. Hit me with your best shot, rowfags
>be a huge asslover >want to call yourself the assman but it doesn't make sense business-wise >settle for "the glute guy"
Aaron Long
Read through the whole fuckin thread Can someone just tell me what I should do on pull day for optimum aesthetics?
Lincoln Rogers
You say lateral then you say "close to the spine" instead of medial.
Pull ups don't "work your lateral muscles" vs medial muscles, theres just a long rom for your lats/teres major and therefore is good for building them.
>no one does them correctly It's really not hard to do it and just because you think people do it wrong doesn't make it so.
>1. Flexibility If you can deadlift you can pendlay row, or do the minimal stretching required to get in position >2. Apt Not caused by forward head posture And something that can be loaded heavier with a stronger degree of axial loading (ie a 4pl8 squat) Will fuck up your back much easier than a pendlay row if you have significant apt. Idk why you think it's so stressful in comparison. >3. Hands past your chest ...What? What does this even mean. Imagine putting your arms on an arm rest, then sliding your elbows back. Is that what you're saying is difficult?
Its basically like a very low bench prwss, are you arguing the flexibility demands of that are high?
>4. Spinal alignment problems There have been many athletes (even in powerlifting) with severe scoliosis.
And refer to point 2 about kyphosis/lordosis
>inner delts >close the shoulderblades
Cameron Collins
The ONLY part I agree with of your entire post is that the majority of people perform rows incorrectly.
If your hip mobility is lacking, row from blocks. APT isn't caused by forward head posture, and besides, the resting position of your pelvic is irrelevant as long as you can set it right doing the exercise, which is something everybody can learn. Unless you're a complete skeleton with very long arms, your elbows won't travel far behind your body in a properly performed row. Having hyperlordosis, hyperkyphosis or scoliosis is NOT an issue.
Cameron Baker
This guy fucking gets it! People without very, very good mobility will probably get fucked by Pendley rows. They require much more mobilty than the average fag is capable of. Most of the people you admire like Klokov, etc. are not only strong but have incredible mobility, that prevents injuries and helps to optimize strength and it is the more rare thing to be discussed.. seriously the ratio of feels threads to mobility threads is like 4:1
David Rivera
Will I suffer any gains by replacing barbell row with dumbbell? My routine has DL, latpulldown, barbell and dumbbell row for back, but I hate the barbell ones.
Evan Cook
I don't see one reason to stop doing rows. All I see are reasons to do other stuff too. This is something you should already be doing.
>looking for some """perfect""" exercise >not cycling through all the exercises throughout the year
Never gonna make it
Isaac Reyes
so pull ups are better?
Jack Anderson
All 3 are valid points of criticism, but I think Menno is ignoring one simple fact: The row is a big, compound exercise. This fact alone makes it a useful exercise because it makes it easy to keep progression rolling for a long ass time. Same goes for the deadlift. Sure, you can find other exercises that might hit certain muscles better, but the big compounds are still great overall muscle developers. Especially for somebody who's limited on time.
His points are valid, and there are definitely many cool back exercises out there you can do (I'm sure he likes the Borge row for instance), but to discard conventional rows completely would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. All exercises are tools and all tools have their uses.
Carter Diaz
>All I see are reasons to do other stuff too Spot on.
Liam Cox
Any real validity of the overall point went out the window when he started conflating lats with the entire back.
Connor Rodriguez
That's sort of true, I guess. Although I think the reason is that most "bodybuilders" seem to think that the back = lats. Back day is basically lat day. He's usually a pretty fucking smart guy.
Ryder Ross
>work the parts closer to the spine
Joseph Clark
Both, of course. Rows = back thickness, pullups = width. Do them on different days if you're an autist or be a real man and superset them all in the same workout
>try doing "progressive pulls" for the first time >add pullups >dat orgasmic back pump
I AM AWAITED
Camden James
so what compound should i do for back ?
Nolan Sullivan
what are the best exercises for each muscle group?
Adrian White
>it's a DYEL Veeky Forumsizens argue about form thread
Ryan Rivera
...
Aaron Jackson
dumbell rows are the superior lift but then you compromise torquing your lower back, snap city visit. You've failed to explain what is the superior lift, we'd love to throw out lifts that are limited in somme way or another but are not practical. It's like saying, bench press sucks because you can't pass the bar through your torso.
Jace Moore
Are landmine rows the best rows?
I tried pendley and DB, both felt awkward
Jacob Mitchell
No, just another memey way to row. Just do whatever row feels most comfortable
It's not directly said but it's blatantly indicated for anyone with half a brain.
Chin ups.
Bentley Gonzalez
here's an alternative, 1 arm ring rows. BTFO.
Julian Edwards
>read delts >vertical shoulder extension What kind of anatomical abomination are you?
Josiah Carter
I just do row machine + lat pulldown for my lats and upper back
