Was there a divide between military & civilian authorities during the Medieval Ages & Ancient Ages?

Was there a divide between military & civilian authorities during the Medieval Ages & Ancient Ages?

It seems like you just had Roman senators randomly commanding armies or Bishops armoring up to command troops all over the place.

>bishops commanding armies....
where did that came from?

Republican Rome was a military oligarchy.

Military service was required to get anywhere in government, and the consuls main job was to command armies.

CKII

are you retarded?

The fuedal system comprised of local lords who would be ordered to conscript the peasants under their charge into go and fight. This is why all English peasant men had to spend a day a week practicing with the long bow.

Yes. Ancient Rome, Greece, and Imperial China had the concept of civilian and military authority being separate. The arrangement being military authority is subject to civilian one, and only above it during emergencies. These three were especially fussy about it. Though in Imperial Rome that fussiness was limited a bit because the Empire literally was a military dictatorship 24/7 (Imperator is after all the name of one "who possesses military authority). But still it somewhat existed because the Legions weren't the same as the citizen militias of old. Meaning military force existed as a separate entity than civilians.

In Medieval Europe there is no such distinction. 1) Because the Germanic Warlords that founded European Kingdoms themselves were considered warriors, and so did most of the nobility. 2) Because Medievalshit military recruitment operated on this principle "if you have weapons, armor, and military training, feel free to bunk in the realm's overall military strength."

Becoming a Bishop pretty much turns you into nobility. Which means you have the means to furnish troops and acquire military training if you wanted to.

Here in Hungary, the guy who led the Hungarians in the Battle of Mohacs was the Archbishop.

what is this guy rocking on his right nipple?

Door handle, so he can easily step into and out of his armor.

It's called a lance rest. It helped him balance/aim his lance.
>pic related

Lance rest. Supports the weight of a lance and keeps it from sliding backwards.

Mostly yes, in the sense that there were separate military and civilian jobs.
For example, a roman senator was a civilian and had 0 (zero) authority over soldiers.
That said, it was pretty common for individuals to jump between civilian and military jobs during a political career.
For example said senator would inevitably have to do military service, then go back to being a civilian to become a senator, then become a military officer (technically, even if he doesn't actually get to lead an army) again upon becoming praetor or consul, then civilian again upon becoming censor.

terrible shitpost

In imperial China the divide between military and civilian control of the armed forces became a big issue in the later Tang and Song dynasty. During the High Tang period Tang Xuanzong placed more and more power into the hands of military governors who controlled border areas. Especially to the military governor An Lushan, who was a favorite courtier of the emperors beloved young wife (he was in his 70s and she was 19 when he married her and made her his favored wife)

Eventually An Lushan became so powerful that he attempted to overthrow the Tang, a rebellion that was eventually put down but only at enormous cost. (fun fact, the rebellion was able to capture the Tang capital, and when the Emperor was evacuated his personal guard stopped 30 miles from the city and said they were not going to move any further until he ordered them to execute his wife for creating this crisis, which he agreed to)

The Song dynasty came in after the Tang, and because of the trauma of that uprising they had a high degree of civilian oversight of the military, to the point where it was almost fussy. They also set very restrictive term limits for all officials, not just military ones, where you had to move to an entirely different part of the country every three years, to keep anyone from building up a power base.

Wait how'd the wife create the crisis

Yang Guifei (the wife) and her family were seen to have been promoters of An Lushan, she had frequently argued at court for placing more men under his command and increasing the size of his military governate. Since he had proclaimed himself emperor using those forces and territory she was seen as a traitor.

After Xunazong agreed to her execution he abdicated in favor of his son.

interesting

Dunno, because Abbots and Bishops lead armies into battle quite often? Pic related, Abbot Kuno leads his merry men to slaughter.

>Becoming a Bishop pretty much turns you into nobility.
No, nobility helps becoming a Bishop, which makes you a member of the high clergy, something completely different.

Its also worth noting that An Lushan's rebellion had terrifyingly fast initial success and captured the capital of Chang'An, seemingly with no Tang forces able to stop them. But they committed most of their forces to capturing the city of Suiyang in 757, which turned out to be a strategic disaster and turned the tide of the war. The Tang forces were able to hold off An Lushan's assault despite being completely cut off by eating 30,000 civilians before fighting to the very last man. The colossal waste of time and resources in capturing the city had provided the Tang an opportunity to regroup their forces and counter attack. An Lushan was killed in a mutiny shortly afterwards, but the uprising splintered into numerous small armies of roving bandits, some of which were still large enough to capture entire cities.

It wasn't until 7 years after An Lushan was killed that the Tang declared the uprising pacified, but by that point the North of the country was completely devastated, Tang holdings in central asia had been conquered by Turks, and it was decided against attempting to retake them. The Tang were also so cash strapped that they took the extreme measure of abolishing the equal field system and re-legalizing private property. That system had guaranteed land to all citizens of the empire (even women) and prevented hegemonic landholders, it was seen by the Tang as their greatest accomplishment, but after the rebellion they simply couldn't afford it anymore.

>In Medieval Europe there is no such distinction.
What you say is perfectly valid for early and parts of the high medieval were physical prowess was mandatory for holding power. late medieval was already developed enough for a civilian administrator class and the slow loss of power of the old feudal classes in terms of real military power.

>Tang forces were able to hold off An Lushan's assault despite being completely cut off by eating 30,000 civilians before fighting to the last man

from the old book of Tang, a history compiled shortly after the dynasty's collapse in the 11th century
>Yin Ziqi [the rebel commander] had besieged the city for a long time. The food in the city had run out. The dwellers traded their children to eat and cooked bodies of the dead. Fears were spread and worse situations were expected. At this time, Zhang Xun [the Tang commander] took his concubine out and killed her in front of his soldiers in order to feed them. He said, "You have been working hard at protecting this city for the country wholeheartedly. Your loyalty is uncompromised despite the long-lasting hunger. Since I can't cut out my own flesh to feed you, how can I keep this woman and just ignore the dangerous situation?" All the soldiers cried, and they did not want to eat. Zhang Xun ordered them to eat the flesh. Afterwards, they caught the women in the city. After the women were run out, they turned to old and young males. 20,000 to 30,000 people were eaten. People always remained loyal.

from the New Book of Tang, a history compiled during the Song dynasty
>After the city was besieged for a long time, at the beginning, the horses were eaten. After horses ran out, they turned to the women, the old, and the young. 30,000 people in total were eaten. People knew their death was close, and nobody rebelled. When the city fell, only 400 people were left.

Is Chinese history always this terrifying

>An Lushan's rebellion
Na, it is just a white devil destroys China episode.Other than that nothing bad ever happened in China.

That kind of mass cannibalism is an anomaly, but there have been a number of really REALLY bad dark ages after dynasties collapsed. The last census conducted by the Han dynasty in 210AD placed the population at approximately 56,000,000. The first census conducted by the Jin dynasty when they unified China in 265AD was 16,000,000

>Bishops armoring up to command troops all over the place.
that's because bishops came from the nobility and ultramontanism was still a thing. pope julius II personally led troops in battle

Denmark had a lot of those, and I think the other Scandinavian principalities too.

An Lushan was Sogdian. Considering Sogdiana at the time, we have no idea if he was Iranic, Turkic, or KARA BOGA.

Bishops and archbishops were the equivalent to counts , dukes or princes and were often rulers of their own turf thus making them the head honcho and thus qualified to command armies. Not to mention they were all born nobles.

>KARA BOGA
It's an interesting topic.

Lots of Sogdian men in China, lots of Chinese men in Sogdiana.

You can still find haplogroup N/O/NO in central and northern Iran at a 5%~ frequency, an additional 4% haplogroup C in Iranian Zoroastrians specifically, and smatterings of Q1a1 (Xiongnu origin).