Han vs Rome

three words, effective force projection

I don't give a shit about convincing you I know what I say is factually correct.

Pretty sure I started the whole thing XDD I mean I created the meme and its all over the Veeky Forums. I'm so proud XDD

This. Rome was far more aesthetic with a far higher quality of life, with far less subservience to the government.

Han Dynasty.

2 things really.
>Han Laissez-Faire.
>Meritocracy.

Compared to Roman propensity towards state control of trade not to mention the Italian-tier byzantine method of rising in society through who-you-know, Nepotism, Patronage, and various other social hijinks that is hard to follow.

Erm, what?

In what way was the Roman world lacking in meritocracy or had more state interventionism than Han China during the imperial period lol?

You do realize Han China had mandatory terms of service that would take you from your home and force you into state controlled labor for months and even years as civic service?

...and Han is considered the leisure dynasty, the ones before were even worse.

Han were far more strict than Rome when it came to statism and civics.

WE ARE ALREADY OVER THIS JESUS FUCKING CHRIST THIS THREAD NEVER ENDS
>HAN CHINA WINS
1 day later
>ROMABOO "LETS END THIS DEBATE NOW"
>ROME WINS
1 day later
>SINOBOO "LETS END THIS DEBATE"
IT NEVER FUCKING ENDS

Because there is no way for people to rise in the ranks in Rome if you weren't a patrician? Meritocracy is a term we literally got from China.

>no we didn't retard read
WE HAVE THIS EVERY SINGLE WEEK AND MONTH YOU FUCKING NEWFAG
It is literally the ultimate b8 thread

> Because there is no way for people to rise in the ranks in Rome if you weren't a patrician?

Fucking kek this meme.

Dude, Octavian, the first Emperor, was a fucking PLEBeian.

Agrippa, his right hand man, was a fucking plebiest of the plebs.

Countless of examples.

They had fucking peasants and sheep herders becoming Emperors for fucks sake.

> Meritocracy is a term we literally got from China

No.

we don't have threads on Han China vs Rome's quality of life on a weekly basis what are you talking about. It's generally focused on military capability which then degrades into racial slurs.
also stop typing in caps. you're obviously very new here so lurk more

not this fucking shit again...

>They had fucking peasants and sheep herders becoming Emperors for fucks sake.
>Octavian
>The same guys whos stepfather was a governor
Chandragupta Maurya is also told to be born a pleb but that doesn't make Ancient India a fucking meritocracy.
Meanwhile, compare to Han Chinese who could take examination and earn rank through accomplishment through Wu or Wen. The ways to rise was clearly written unlike in Rome.
>>No.
afe.easia.columbia.edu/song/readings/inventions_ideas.htm#light
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy
inb4 muh Plato and Aristotle, their from of government were still divided into castes

Yeah if they actually followed the practice, but they didn't. There's a reason why people associate bribery with Russia and China.

damn BTFO lol

Read The Real Chinaman
by Chester Holcombe, he tells about the current prime minister who came from a poor family.
>Yeah if they actually followed the practice, but they didn't
You better have citations for that, because it is hard to bribe the examinatior.
1. because they use candidate numbers
2. punishable by death
3. if the familiy is weatlhy to bribe they probably already have a clan member in the government already
4. did I mention death penalty?
5. Officals would notice very quickly if you didn't know anything of theory or the classics
7. the emperor is the final exterminator, if you want to get into the central government
>using modern nations as examples
Even if we say your claim is true, still would make upward mobility a possibility by the possibility of a family to become rich then to bribe their son into government position despite not belonging to a certain caste

> Chandragupta Maurya is also told to be born a pleb but that doesn't make Ancient India a fucking meritocracy.

That was just the initial example, there are loads of examples of Romans rising through the ranks.

There was no societal barrier preventing anyone, not even ex-slaves.

> Meanwhile, compare to Han Chinese who could take examination and earn rank through accomplishment through Wu or Wen. The ways to rise was clearly written unlike in Rome.

Yes, but that does not mean that they also did not suffer from nepotism and classism, for fucks sake even our modern society, far more advanced than the one you are masturbating to, still suffers those issues.

> afe.easia.columbia.edu/song/readings/inventions_ideas.htm#light

> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy

That does not state that we got the term of meritocracy from China, that only states that they did it first.

> inb4 muh Plato and Aristotle, their from of government were still divided into castes

You can still have meritocracy within such a society.

we actually had about quality of life, and architecture, and bureaucracy, and infrastructure, and a bunch more.
but yea they tend to just end with racial slurs, which is why they're usually terrible threads

*eat their own horses*
*eat each other*
Truly a heavenly realm

*fucks little boys*
truly the peak of western civilization

Socrates was executed in athens for being suspected of that amoung ohter things. Then theres the romance period, where all your lords and emperors would stick metal in each other than fuck their wives. Eventually coughing up blood on the field.

*mutilates the feet of their entire female population*
*starves the population every time the army is mobilized*
*entire life regimented by the government so no freedom whatsoever*
Cool ant colony you got there

>In what way was the Roman world lacking in meritocracy
There is literally no formal meritocracy in Rome.

Hence what I said.
>talian-tier byzantine method of rising in society through who-you-know, Nepotism, Patronage, and various other social hijinks that is hard to follow.

Peasant rising into emperorhood =/= Meritocracy. Meritocracy is a formal system.

I wouldn't say the literal Hobo, Liu Bang, founding the Han dynasty as meritocracy either.

*buries alive 200 000 of your own countrymen*

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Julu

Also, this battle should wreck any attempts of anyone at claiming that the Chinese army numbers are not exaggerated;

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaixia

Fucking kek

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pengcheng

> There is literally no formal meritocracy in Rome.

Not having it formalized does not mean it does not exist as a societal reality.

> Meritocracy is a formal system

No, it is a societal or political philosophy.

>Brown-nosing, patronage, and blood ties is patronage.
Sure.

> Sure

> Implying the same was not the reality in China despite the formalized testing and rank throughing

Ffs I've personally witnessed professors in universities nepotizing the fuck out of the system, one even employing is own fucking daughter by opening up an additional grad group.

Let alone it not being an even far worse commonality in something dynasty China for fuck sake.

>Modern China.
>Han Dynasty.
Mkay.

Why is this even a debate? Rome completely crushed every other medieval empire it encountered while China had a hard time dealing with some horse nomads and countries that hadn't even developed their own alphabet or language. The Chinese have no grand military accomplishments to speak of.

Did Han China have better medical knowledge?

Yeah, Han was far worse.

...what?

these threads last for days, what are you on about m8

Nah. Rome had that on the pat. I remember reading Tang Historians being amazed at eye surgery.

They were talking of the Byzantine Period, however.

...
oh yeah?
muh alchemy

That was pretty weak, Wang.

hol up

>ROMABOO

All of those are chink-made threads

...

what a question, seriously

>That was just the initial example, there are loads of examples of Romans rising through the ranks.
Such as?
>Yes, but that does not mean that they also did not suffer from nepotism and classism, for fucks sake even our modern society, far more advanced than the one you are masturbating to, still suffers those issues.
Stop trying to move the goal post, that is not the point, at least social mobility was a possibility based on merit rather than birth and rank.
>That does not state that we got the term of meritocracy from China, that only states that they did it first.
>"The concept of meritocracy spread from China to British India during the seventeenth century, and then into continental Europe and the United States."
This it is so sad, it is a really interesting discussion
This redditor better have a citation that rome had a form of meritocracy or I swear romaboos are the worse
>personal "experience"

>Nah. Rome had that on the pat. I remember reading Tang Historians being amazed at eye surgery.
[Citation needed] Are you talking about Du Huan?
>impressed by Byzantine, be it rumors or actual personal experience we DON'T know
>WOW yoU GUYS OBVIOusoly better MEdicine

>the emperor is the final exterminator
While aware that it's a typo I now can't unsee a t-800 as emperor

>I am always right and everyone who says I am wrong is an idiot.

I know it is bait, but I don't care.

>Such as?
Diocletian is the most famous one. He became fucking emperor. There's a lot of examples of plebs becoming rich and influential to the point that their descendents were "noble plebs", like Marius, Crassus, Cicero.
>Stop trying to move the goal post, that is not the point, at least social mobility was a possibility based on merit rather than birth and rank.
So was in Rome, as proven by a buch of examples that you can literally google it.

*mutilates the feet of their entire female population*
they didn't do it to women from peasant and craftsmen families. Only women of the "elite" and their concubines/prostitutes.

eh, see it like this:
The point of the other guy is that the Chinamen had institutionalized meritocracy, as in the form of an exam system where (on paper) anyone could attend and (again, in theory) be rewarded based on their accomplishments.
Thus, you won't get anywhere by bringing up individual examples, you should rather focus on the institutions and legal system of the roman empire.

What dynasty are we talking? The Han did certainly not mutilate any feet.

Earliest mention of footbinding is from the Tang, and that's in the form of dancing girls binding their feet to make them look smaller, not mutilating them as that would kinda crash their job.
In Song footbinding as we know it started becoming a thing for the nobility.
Ming & Qing saw widespread footbinding.

bump

Rome
Because they had bigger dicks
Source-my Mom

bumping

>ask for citations
>just google it bro
These are not examples of meritocracy, it is nepotism. There a plenty of examples around the world about poor gaining wealth and status, but that is not a sign a meritocracy. By your logic the High Medieval Era had meritocracy.
>Be peasant
>Local Priest sees a lot of potential in me
>recommend me to the the Diocese
>get sent to university
>study Theology and Roman Law
>apply for work in the Kings court
Point is it wasn't institutionalized and the caste system of privileges still existed, despite examples of previous peasants being appointed administrators by their King, which just made them the new aristocracy.
I.E Bagler after the Norwegian Civil War
The castes are still the same, and the privileged classes will always have the upper hand because of muh birthright.
Meanwhile in Chyna
>want to work in Government to honor ancestors
>go to local scholar or local magistrate
>get tutored either by state or private institutions or service as a warrior
>study or do guard shits
>now you can either take civil examination or military
>congratulation you got a job at your local county, possibly as an assistant.
>you can now choose to take examination on a higher lvl or work and hope the local offical's report gets you promoted.
Rome was not a meritocracy because local governors was appointed by the Roman, later even inherited. And the Emperor himself sometime being elected by the military could simply just be a puppet. There was no formal way for the random guy on the street to change his status.