German Wheel lock research boy back at it with another question

German Wheel lock research boy back at it with another question

This guy is “Der Nero” but for whatever reason I feel like it isn’t referring to the Roman Emperor Nero, but that just might be my inexperience with the depiction of Romans in arts that isn’t Roman. Any ideas as to if it’s actually supposed to be Nero or is it someone else?

For context, this appears to the left of a scene of Hercule’s Rape of Iole on a mid 16th century German wheel-lock rifle that is very ornately decorated. Alex Magnus (Alexander the Great) appears on the right side of the scene of the Rape of Iole.

It might also be worth mentioning that the Rape of Iole scene (pic related) is a direct copy of a print by Hans Sebald Beham, the other side of the buttstock has another scene of Hercules by Beham on it as well.

Here’s Alex for the full experience

If it's got Alex, then we're already dealing with rulers from classical antiquity. Having Nero in there isn't so far-fetched, I'd say. Especially if it says "Der Nero" right there.... though I wonder - the other inscriptions are in Latin, yet Nero gets a German article?

Also, when did they start depicting Alex with a pointy yet wide hat/helmet? I've seen that a few times by now, always in approximately that style...is it just a Beham thing?

>the other inscriptions are in Latin, yet Nero gets a German article?

I was wondering the same thing myself. After some brief Google searching, I think whoever did the inlay work was basing all of his stuff off of Beham's prints, that included the inscriptions in Latin he had on them. My rough guess is that maybe he didn't have a reference of Nero to work with from Beham, made his own interpretation, and didn't know Latin so he put it in German. Or its also possible that its based off of another artist but I doubt that considering both sides are based off of Beham.

Yo forget Nero a sec, I just had a fucking breakthrough

The scenes on both sides of this gun are both copies of Beham's prints of Hercules, the subject matters are the Rape of Iole and Hercules's Sack of Troy. Both of these scenes are direct results of Hercules doing what was asked of him and being denied his payment:
>Hercules helps Laomedon, King of Troy kill a sea monster sent by Poseidon if he agreed to give him the magical horses Zeus had given him in return for abducting his son Ganymede, only to be told to fuck off after doing so, then he comes back and sacks Troy with his buddies.
>Hercules beats King Eurytus and his sons in an archery contest to win the hand of Iole, only to get told to fuck off (again) after winning then came back after getting his own army and sacking Oechalia and taking Iole by force.

So now the real question is, why is this trend relevant enough to appear on a very ornately decorated German sporting rifle? Or are both of these stories just a coincidence and these are the prints that the craftsman/men had to work with?

A lot of medieval artwork shows characters in contemporary rather than historical garb. Not sure why, maybe lack of knowledge on the artist's part or maybe they wanted to present figures in attire that would be recognizable so that the average person would be able to identify them as soldiers, kings or whatever.

Probably the latter, its the same reason most religious scenes ever made have settings or clothes average to whatever the contemporary's situation was so it was easier to identify with.

The scene of the Sack of Troy is long so its in three photos

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Considering the other subjects are Alexander and some of Herakles more dubious deeds, I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't just Emperor Nero. The themes of the engravings seem to be having no impulse control and Nero fits that category.

The only other famous Nero that comes to mind is the one who commanded the Romans at the battle of the Metaurus.

You know what? I think that's more logical than the Emperor Nero, considering the subject matter of both scenes of Hercules are of battle and that the standing figures flanking the Rape of Iole would both be great military leaders.

As a side question

Do you think Nero or Alex's shield's have any significance? Alex's shield very clearly has a griffin on it which is no doubt a popular coat of arms and Nero's has a face on it. Any ideas of what they might be in relation to?

I haven't really seen them on shields but in the Alexander Romance (very popular for centuries) Alex has a sweet flying vehicle comprised of a few griffins strapped to a chair which he steers by waving some meat on a stick just out their reach.

It's totally rad and a common motif in various illustrations so the Alexander-griffin association is there in the popular imagination of the period.

On that note it's good not to project our current view and/or imagination of various characters into the past.

Between late antiquity and sometime in the early modern period it's likely that the first thing a person would think of when Alex is mentioned wouldn't be Gaugamela and all that boring crap but rad adventures from the Alexander Romance.

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*muffled οὐδὲν τοῖς θαρροῦσιν ἀνάλωτον in the distance*

As for the Nero's shield I have no idea but the face reminds me of some depictions of Pan / Faunus / satyrs which tend to be associated with debauchery, which could be right up Nero's alley.

But that's just a guess really, I don't recall Nero particularly associated with satyrs and the like in medieval / renaissance art.

>back at it

Link to previous thread(s)?

Here's one of them

And another
there were two more I think but the links for them are long gone for me

> ITT: Alexander the Great: Anime Edition
> From the middle ages

He had a submarine too!

Or at least a diving bell.

>Alex’s Bizarre Adventure

Is this for real or a goofy medieval thing?

There have been descriptions of diving bells at least as far back as Aristotle so Alexander could have potentially used one at some point.

But the particular depiction is based on the Alexander Romance, just like the griffin chair thing, very popular in the middle ages.

So I was doing some research on the makers marks I found on the rifle. They're both the same marks of Suhl, Germany, indicating that the barrel and assembly were made in Suhl. However, reading about some pistols from the 1580s to come out of Saxony with the same Suhl marking have separate marks on different parts of the gun - two on the barrel and two more DIFFERENT marks on the doghead. So I guess its safe to say I should make another appointment with the museum to see if I can go over it with a fine comb again.

Using this thread as a personal dump for whatever pics on my phone I need to reference on my PC

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That looks very similar to (one of) Lucas Cranach's Allegory of Justice.

good luck killing anybody with that sword it's fucking curved at the end lmao

HOLY SHIT

So like I said in , there's a common theme of vengeance between the Hercules stories, Lady Justice appearing RIGHT SMACK BETWEEN THEM cannot be a coincidence!

Executioner's swords are for beheading criminals, not stabbing people in dark alleys or a pitched melee.

whatever kid i would rather a sharp one and so would anybody

It is sharp, just not pointy.

Stabbing is not Justice.

ok buddy i will fight you blunt sword vs sharp sword and we'll see who comes out on top

ok but I get to wear a hood and you have to kneel with your head over the block

i am the one who wears the hood

listen we can both wear hoods but you need to have your neck exposed I'm just a journeyman I can't go botching any more executions

Does anyone else find it slightly unusual that this bit looks like where a heraldry or coat of arms would be but its left blank? Surely it wouldn't have been flanked by lions for nothing.

listen i'll kill you and take your jobbo

Is that a Lucretia, I spy?

Severian, is that you?

Medieval people didn't have the same concept of the passage of time as us. Therefore they didn't understand the linear process of technology developing and assumed that those that came before them had the exact same stuff, in terms of armour anyway

bumping for interest

I wish I was as convicted and interested about finding things out as this user is.

I think the only reason I'm so motivated to keep researching this thing as much as I am is 1. My grade depends on it and 2. I keep getting little interesting tidbits here and there that feed my interest and make me want to find out more.