Daily reminder that the Mongols could have never conquered Europe

Daily reminder that the Mongols could have never conquered Europe.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Mongol_invasion_of_Hungary
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Fenno-Ugrian_people.png
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Lenguas_finougrias.png
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Esztergom_(1241)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mohi
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnica
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Mongol_invasion_of_Poland
youtube.com/watch?v=zmTdE29N5jI
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Silesia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Piasts
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest
theses.ucalgary.ca/bitstream/11023/232/2/ucalgary_2012_pow_lindsey.pdf
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

They tried to conquer Hungary though;

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Mongol_invasion_of_Hungary

It would have been probably ended like Atilla's invasion of Gaul, with both sides slaughtering each other. If they wanted to they probably could have gotten to central europe and the HRE before getting bogged down in that quagmire and a holy league led by England, France and Austria pushing them back.

Yet they never manage to conquer a single fortified settlement.

they were more than capable of it. China bro.

Also Middle East

Ironically Hungarians would be more Mong today if the Mongols didn't butcher Magyars like animals

Think hard why those two situations were not comparable.

They did, they just could not conquer the inner citadels.

> they were more than capable of it. China bro.

Yes, but Europe was more of a fuck up for them because it was so decentralized and because of the very nature of European fortification.

While Asia had superior fortification, they, especially the Chinese, focused on just walling up cities with large walls, which the Mongols took and then strolled into large and wide streets of large cities.

In Europe, instead of a few massive cities to conquer and subdue, they encountered swarms of very small fortifications, each had to be sieged and taken one by one, and it was total fuckery because European forts, even mote and baileys, did not have any free room, just fucked corridors and death traps at every step, even within the citadel.

That is why the Mongol 11 month siege of Esztergom citadel failed miserably even though the city itself fell quite easily and why they failed to conquer so many citadels while easily conquering all of the cities without any issues.

If they ventured westwards, this would become even more of a fucked issue for them, as the HRE was a total shitstorm of feudal lords and free towns/cities that each had fortifications of their own, basically independent of the central "government".

>Mongols conquering other mongols
The thread's about Europe my man

Europe had an extremely high population at the time, there was no way to take and hold the HRE, Poland, Hungary and France. Euros would just declare a crusade and attack the Mongols from all sides. They Mongols just didn't have the men or the willingness to do a long term campaign at the time.

Hungarians were never really Mongoloid, that's a high medieval meme when a bunch of Hungarian authors tried to link Hungary with the Huns. That link never existed though.

Magyars came from what is now Bashkortostan to where they migrated from even further east.

Before Pannonia they would have been kinda mixed but not necessarily quite as Asian as modern day Ugric people in Siberia.

Germans played a big role in repopulating Hungary after the Mongol massacres.

>. If they wanted to they probably could have gotten to central europe and the HRE before getting bogged down in that quagmire and a holy league led by England, France and Austria pushing them back.
This is your brain on Westerncentrist view. lmao, Imagine being this fucking retarded.

>Ugric speakers.
>"Further East"
Sure their ancestors rode with a Turkic Confederacy that migrated westwards, but those tend to be multiethnic.

Well duh. Do you have any fucking clue how fucking FAR it is from Mongolia to Europe? The idea of projecting force that distance for decades to maybe centuries to subdue all of Europe is ludicrous.

The only way the Mongols could theoretically conquer Europe is to do more or less what they did in China; set up a vast array of puppet governments and create client kingdoms to provide manpower and funding right on site. You'd less have "The Mongols" conquering Europe, and have a Mongol led coalition of Europeans conquering other Europeans. But to do that requires a lot of political application of violence, not just raiding and looting like they were primarily doing west of the Urals.

Let me guess in your view the winged Hussars fly in and stop their advance through the power of christ?

Magyars came to Pannonia after spending hundreds of years in Levedia and Etelköz which is in modern day Ukraine. By the time they arrived in central Europe they were pretty much completely white, and any "Mongoloid" trace in modern Hungarians comes from assimilated Cumans who were permitted to settle in the southeastern steppe by a Hungarian king.

Most importantly, it was a poor shithole compared to China or India. There's no incentive to send 100,000 screaming Mongols when Paris or Rome weren't even the size of a medium sized Chink city.

>While Asia had superior fortification, they, especially the Chinese, focused on just walling up cities with large walls, which the Mongols took and then strolled into large and wide streets of large cities.
The first Mongol sieges without any siege experts on Chinese cities, the Mongols nearly fucking got wiped out.

Actually there were plenty of sliver mines in central and Western Europe. Im sure that would of been more than enough of a reason to conquer Europe.

No, you're simply not giving enough credit to Hungarian, Czech and Polish knights.

English knights were literal peasant shit compared to Eastern/Central knights.

Yeah, its not like the mongols were sitting on the silk route or had places like china to rule over.

>Mongols conquering other mongols

Hungarians are Ugric, not Turkic or Mongols and they were completely westernized by the 13th century.

> Magyars came from what is now Bashkortostan

lol no, a section of them migrated there while the others went west.

Their true homeland was in the Eastern European lands just north of modern day Moscow.

> Sure their ancestors rode with a Turkic Confederacy

A lot of Germanic tribes rode with a Hunnic confederacy, including Goths from modern day Ukraine, that does not make them Asiatic.

> Most importantly, it was a poor shithole compared to China or India. There's no incentive to send 100,000 screaming Mongols when Paris or Rome weren't even the size of a medium sized Chink city.

Then why did the Mongols organize 100 000 of their best troops, including most of their best commanders and leaders, including both Batu and Subotai leading a campaign together for the first time, in the first place lol?

Europe, while not as developed as China at the time, experienced a population boom and was still quite a lucrative possession, hence why the Mongols returned the second time under Nogai Khan.

Hell, Hungary at the time had one of the largest silver mines in the entirety of Euroasia in the Carpathian mountains.

> The first Mongol sieges without any siege experts on Chinese cities, the Mongols nearly fucking got wiped out.

But by the time they got to Europe they were experts at sieging, the comparison is flawed.

Okay then why did the Mongols made numerous attempts to conquer Europe?

>Their true homeland was in the Eastern European lands just north of modern day Moscow.

That area has never been Ugric.

Those countries do their part, but they only slow them down. Eastern europe is the necessary sacrifice for the rest Europe to get its shit together. Also the Hungarian's main army was completely destroyed at Mohi

> That area has never been Ugric.

Are you retarded or?

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Fenno-Ugrian_people.png

Even today you still have some left;

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Lenguas_finougrias.png

I suppose it was probably similar to the Late Republican/Early Empire attempts to conquer Germania

>Ugric

Magyar, Mansi and Khanty. The latter two don't live in Moscow.

Europe WAS mongol, at the height of the Finnish Empire

> The latter two don't live in Moscow

I said north of Moscow, and the Magyars used to live there.

That entire area northwards onto Finland was Ugric.

I have no idea how you came to that conclusion.

> I suppose it was probably similar to the Late Republican/Early Empire attempts to conquer Germania


Nah, that is far too harsh.

This is the 13th century Europe we are talking about, so more like Pyrus trying to conquer Italy.

Daily reminder that Teutons were incompetent greedy retards that got cucked. Thanks for the cities t.balt

They also never fought the Mongols.

Lmao, not even close. The Romans got their asses kicked and never came back. The Mongole tried multiple times to conquer Europe

They destroyed the European armies sent out to fight them.

Subutai led around 20k horsemen west not 100k

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Esztergom_(1241)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mohi

Yes they totally were. They were Tengri worshipping Finno-Ugric speaking Turks from the Eurasian steppe. Perhaps they had more in common genetically with other Eastern Europeans but culturally they were Mongoloid.

>culturally
Irrelevant.

What are you talking about, the romans repeatedly lead succesful campaigns across the rhine?

knights suck at large scale battles, but they damageed a scouting party near Vienna and the Mongols called it quits shortly afterwards, future raids were not as successful as the Poles and Hungarians had since built stone fortifications and set up institutions to support cavalry

>Battle of Legnica unfolding in Poland (Duchy of Silesia) in which thousands of mostly Polish knights fought, aided only by a few dozen Teutonic knights
>painting depicting the battle shows only the Teutonic Order, no Polish duchies to be seen...
Just typical German centrist revisionism.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Legnica

Anyway, the Mongols were a pain in the ass, especially for an internally fragmented Poland.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Mongol_invasion_of_Poland
youtube.com/watch?v=zmTdE29N5jI

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Silesia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silesian_Piasts

If the Hungarian army was shat on, English one wouldn't last even 2 minutes.

> The Romans got their asses kicked and never came back.

Caesar went through twice and roflstomped.

Germanicus went and roflstomped.

?

> Subutai led around 20k horsemen west not 100k

No, that is the first invasion of Europe, the one where they massacred the Cumans and the Turkic tribes, took out the Rus army and then went back, that was in 1226/1227.

The invasion where they conquered the Rus and then continued to Poland and Hungary was the larger, second invasion, which included many leaders, including Batu, that one numbered a conservative number of 45 000, a high estimate of 100 000 and the exaggerated primary sources of 200-300 000.

> knights suck at large scale battles

lol no.

Yes, nobody is arguing that the Mongols weren't very good at open battles lol

No, there were no Teutonic knights at Mohi or Legnica, that is a myth.

> If the Hungarian army was shat on

But it wasn't.

Most of modern historiography reconsiders the earlier, 19th century and early 20th century version of a roflstomp and argue that the Mongols had serious casualties at Mohi, especially at the bridge crossing.

Point still stands. Western "armies" wouldn't last 2 fucking minutes against Mongols.

But they did

> Point still stands. Western "armies" wouldn't last 2 fucking minutes against Mongols.


But the second invasion of Hungary failed miserably...

And yet it was Eastern Euros that destroyed Mongols.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Mongol_invasion_of_Poland

English Longbows would have faired better than horseback archers of the Magyars bro

yeah but they ultimately determined that the manpower and treasure required to conquer the province and hold it were not cost beneficial as compared to Gaul or Britain

Get a load of this retard

also stop thinking of medieval warfare in terms of knights. Its much more complex than that.

So? That still doesn’t change the fact that they never manage to capture a single fortified settlement.

I was referring to this.

>
Battle of the Teutoburg Forest
The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest (German: Schlacht im Teutoburger Wald, Hermannsschlacht, or Varusschlacht, Italian: Disfatta di Varo), described as the Varian Disaster (Clades Variana) by Roman historians, took place in the Teutoburg Forest in 9 CE, when an alliance of Germanic tribes ambushed and decisively destroyed three Roman legions and their auxiliaries, led by Publius Quinctilius Varus. The anti-Roman alliance was led by Arminius, a Germanic officer of Varus' auxilia

>Despite several successful campaigns and raids by the Romans in the years after the battle, they never again attempted to conquer the Germanic territories east of the Rhine river. The victory of the Germanic tribes against Rome's legions in the Teutoburg Forest would have far-reaching effects on the subsequent history of both the ancient Germanic peoples and the Roman Empire. Contemporary and modern historians have generally regarded Arminius' victory over Varus as "Rome's greatest defeat",[4] one of the most decisive battles recorded in military history,[5][6][7][8][9] and as "a turning-point in world history".[10]

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Teutoburg_Forest

Refer to this

well that reply was a reply to you saying the battle of esterogozom was an example of europeans beating mongols in the open field. On the contrary they were defeated before in that battle and estergozom came under seige the second time because the Hungarian forces were so depleted.

>be ambushed by a numerically superior force while marching through a thick forest in a column in supposedly "friendly" territory
>get massacred
No shit the Romans lost.

Uh their armies were roughly the equivalent. Either way, my point has been proven

An ambush is a huge advantage for the, especially when the ambusher has knowledge of the opponents formation and composition.
What is your point?

This

In the second invasion the Mongol chronicles noted how many of the commanders and soldiers were disgruntled over the lack of viable loot to be had. Most of the European goods were of shit quality compared to the loot in the Middle East and China.

China is renowned for rolling over to northern invaders

You're really bad at following threads.

> the Mongol chronicles noted how many of the commanders and soldiers were disgruntled over the lack of viable loot to be had

LMAO, there is no Mongol account that says anything remotely that. That's just a dumbass lie that Mongolboos tell themselves. The real reason why they didn't conquer Europe was simply because the invasion was going nowhere. They never manage to capture a single fortified settlement and their entire army was losing steam after ravaging the countryside and began starving. They were simply in no position to push west.

And there was also plenty of silver mines in Europe that the Mongols could plunder. So yeah, Europe did have plenty of loot to ravage.

*could have plundered

> Either way, my point has been proven

No it hasn't.

You said;
> The Romans got their asses kicked and never came back.

Which is false.

> n the second invasion the Mongol chronicles noted how many of the commanders and soldiers were disgruntled over the lack of viable loot


You are lying.

In 9AD, Arminius organized a Germanic coalition and defeated and completely destroyed 3 Roman legions which ultimately driven out the Romans for good.

They lost multiple times in the second invasion. Hungary was a fucking century behind the west during the first, and lost because of it.

China's population was higher

Hungary was a laughable backwater at the time with a poorly equipped army by contemporary standards.

>While Asia had superior fortification, they, especially the Chinese, focused on just walling up cities with large walls, which the Mongols took and then strolled into large and wide streets of large cities.

Wrong. The Mongol campaign into China lasted nearly a century and its where the Mongols suffered their worst defeats. The Chinese cities fell not because of some kind of Mongol feat of engineering but because they surrendered. The Mongols were only able to make headways into China by taking advantage of the fighting amongst the various dynasty's by allying with one faction against another.

Which they did by importing westerners, their armor, weapons, tactics, and organisation.

If Genghis Khan was alive he'd stomp Europe. Everything past him was underwhelming.

Batu was alright though.

The Hungarians literally burned their valuables when they kne eztergzom was fucked. Mongol loot from the campaign was limited to soldiers baggage and farm animals. Muh mines is fucking irrelevant. Soldiers can't pick it up and take it home.

I want the Mongol Empire to rise again.

Arminius was later defeated by the Romans a few times, and even had his wife captured by them, but they did never go on to expand any further into Germania

Ogedai and Chagadai were better

Are you retarded?

Hungary starting doing better against the Mongols when they stopped using mounted cavalry as the decision-making arm of their military and started using heavy knights, which were able to match and defeat the mongols toe-to-toe in a general sense.

*mounted archers

Fuck

Actually most Hungarians hid their loot in the citedal which the Mongols FAILED to capture. That’s probably why the Mongols were disappointed.

I guess the mongols were incapable of bringing back silver ingots.

They fare better when they starting using armored knights and crossbowmen plus start building stone castles in defensible locations.
I had a paper(sadly can not find it again) where guy argue that fierce resistance from Rus and then Hungary and Poland bleed Mongols enough to make them reconsider expansion here.
He mention high losses of Mongol soldiers and commanders in sieges and that defenders often hide or destroy valauables and fight to the end compared to Chinese and Muslims who often surrender or even switch sides and cooperate with invader.
if anyone now this paper name please help.

was it this?
theses.ucalgary.ca/bitstream/11023/232/2/ucalgary_2012_pow_lindsey.pdf

Looks like. Thanks.

Plenty of silver, but...

A) would they have known?
B) did they care?
C) how would they exploit them?

>steppe riding tatars and quality product management

pull your head out of your ass dumb chink, you are unfit for life

He is right tho.
Europe at the time was a poor shithole compared to pre Mongol China and Middle east.

> compared to pre Mongol China

Not exactly shithole but poorer yes.

> and Middle east.

Fucking lol no.

The Middle East was ravaged by bumfuck Turkic warlords for 200 years by that point, apart from Bagdad, Samarkand and perhaps 2 other urban cities it was basically reverted to early middle ages Europe.

For fuck sake Alexandria's population fucktarded downwards under the Ayyubids and the Mamlukes to being lower than Nicosia lmao

My mistake- I mean central Asia.
Still Middle east was richer than Europe at the time.

>Which ultimately driven out the Romans for good.

They already had the good parts of Germania and most of the "free" tribes paid tribute to the Romans. After Arminius'assasination, the pro Roman Italicus was imposed as king of the Cherusci.

> My mistake- I mean central Asia.

That is mostly steppe territory...

> Still Middle east was richer than Europe at the time.

No, not by the 13th century.

That map is heavily exaggerated in the Balkans.

T. Mehmet

>Mongol hordes
>invade Europe time and time again
>BTFO every single time, often by vastly numerically inferior European

what did tengri mean by this?

What's this meme thay european fortifications were somehow inferior to chinese and middle eastern ones i'd argue that european fortifications were the most advanced.

It's butthurt Chink damange control. We have evidence of how the Mongols fared against European fortifications in Hungary - we don't have to speculate and debate "what if" scenarios because it ACTUALLY HAPPENED.