There's literally no reason to be a vegan over a vegetarian, in terms of morals. Prove me wrong Veeky Forums. This is veganism vs vegetarianism, nothing else.
* To eat an animal, you have to kill it. You can't ignore this fact. You could eat it alive or just eat parts of it without killing it, but that's worse so it's not an argument. * To consume animal products, like dairy and eggs, you don't HAVE TO kill the animal, or treat it badly. Their treatment is just a part of the industry and is a SECOND-HAND action. * If you want to be a logical consistent person, you can't seriously be expected to be responsible for all your SECOND-HAND actions. If this were the case, you wouldn't be able to live in society like a normal human being. Most of the things you consume on a DAILY BASIS causes SECOND-HAND harm to other human beings and animals, even if you're a vegan.
There's literally no argument that can make veganism morally superior to vegetarianism, it only makes you a hypocrite.
Net suffering to animals caused by vegetarians : dairy cows
And I'm not even vegetarian or vegan
James Cox
>You can't seriously be expected to be responsible for all your SECOND-HAND actions
Unless you know exactly what you're doing and proceed to do it anyway, in which case you would be responsible.
Joshua Gonzalez
Did you read the post?
The industry causes the suffering, not you. It's not REQUIRED for the animal to suffer to consume products from them. It happens a SECOND HAND action. You're not responsible for the people dying when you're buying gas for your car are you? Because that's happening as a SECOND HAND action.
It's about being logically consistent and drawing a line for what actions you are responsible. You could draw the line further down, but it would require you to move out in the woods in isolation, but even then you're probably doing harm second-hand to something.
Jeremiah Lopez
Vegetarianism is hypocritical if you are doing it for the animals. Sure, there are local farms that do not mistreat animals, but 90% of the time, if someone buys milk or eggs or cheese, etc., it's from a place that gets them cheap and sells them cheap, aka: a dairy and egg factory. I know that being vegan won't change much in the eggs, dairy and meat industry, but it helps me sleep better at night knowing I'm not paying money to harm an animal, even if it's the industry harming them, not me. When you give them money, you are basically allowing them to harm these animals. No matter how much shit you try to spew to disprove me, at the end of the day, you are paying for mistreatment, not me.
Sebastian Hall
Best reply ever
James Smith
This has nothing to do with fitness.
We have a board for philosophy take it there
Kevin Baker
Okay.
You wrote that using a electronic device, you're contributing to the destruction of the environment. You probably drive a car/take the bus, so you're contributing to wars over oil, i.e. people dying. Did you check where your clothes are made and under what conditions?
All I'm saying is, if you want to be LOGICALLY CONSISTENT with all your actions, you have to draw a line somewhere. First hand actions? Second hand actions? Third hand actions?
To not become an hermit isolated in the woods, the most logical choice is you draw the line between first and second hand actions. You're only responsible for your direct actions and that's it.
Aaron Smith
That can only be an argument to consume products of your animals If you buy milk from markets YOU ARE killing an animal because male calvs are sent to slauther in all dairy farms. If you are buying eggs, YOU ARE killing baby male chicks who are grinded alive by the industry or put in plastic bags to suffocate because they can't lay eggs. youtube.com/watch?v=BQ5qAfyUuWE
Matthew Cooper
Philosophically, awareness shouldn't affect your moralities. Just because you're unaware of something doesn't make it right or wrong. You can't chose to live in ignorance and say you have no responsibilities.
That's like saying, it's okay to eat meat UNTIL YOU LEARN why you shouldn't.
Parker Williams
>Just because you're unaware of something doesn't make it right or wrong
If you're unaware of issue, it's not a moral choice. Once you become aware, you're expected to make a conscious decision, which would then be a moral choice.
>That's like saying, it's okay to eat meat UNTIL YOU LEARN why you shouldn't.
Well yeah. Most people eat meat without even thinking about what they're doing and they wouldn't be considered evil for it. Once you're aware of what's happening though, you can then fairly be called a dick for continuing to buy it.
Oliver Clark
LOL. Because those arguments totally = cruelty in the dairy industry.
Jackson Reed
>tells me i'm wrong but not why
Why not?
Jason Butler
So by this logic, I can hire someone to club baby seals and it wouldn't be my fault because someone else did it. It was a second-hand action.
Thomas Edwards
Maybe (You) should actually research the dairy industry before making posts like this
Justin Young
How is this Veeky Forums related?
Brayden Butler
>To consume animal products, like dairy and eggs, you don't HAVE TO kill the animal, or treat it badly.
In the egg industry, when chicks are born male they are either ground alive or suffocated at 1 day old. Also, even if it's just backyard chickens, taking their eggs causes stress and causes them to produce more eggs. The overproduction of eggs gives them cancer.
Same thing in dairy industry. Male offspring of dairy cows are killed for veil and leather. Dairy cows are kept constantly pregnant so they keep producing milk, And dairy cows are sold to the meat industry once they stop producing milk at an efficient rate.
Jordan Sanders
You dont have to be either tho
I mean chickens nice.
Levi Jenkins
>There's literally no reason to be a vegan over a vegetarian, in terms of morals. Prove me wrong Veeky Forums. Ok.
My morals say that your morals are pussy SJW garbage and that implying humans have an inherent obligation to change their diet is both hypocritical and retarded.
Jacob Davis
You don't hold the dude in Gap sweatpants accountable for child labor in China, and you don't hold the guy eating quinoa accountable for starving farmers in Bolivia. You don't even hold yourself accountable for the enormous carbon footprint the device you're reading this with has already made.
You're a self-affirming dipshit who thinks his diet excuses him from all other impacts he has on reality.
Bentley Moore
Actually, when we know that we are funding something that is immoral with our purchase, and there exists another option (that we are aware of), we are morally obligated to boycott the immoral one.
Robert Jones
Im vegan for environmental reasons, I guess that could fall under moral reasons.
Jack Perez
whats morally wrong with killing animals?
Jonathan Reyes
Then kill your own or buy local. Conflating a diet with a single supplier of one component of that diet is fucking stupid and you know it.
No amount of vegan bullshit will change the fact that animal products have been an important component of out diet for thousands of years.
>we are morally obligated to boycott Then boycott the fucking internet. You're needlessly consuming electricity.
We don't have to listen to your bullshit, and you can tell all your fruity friends how great you are for never logging online.
Brayden Cooper
right now iam lacto vegetarian.
i dont consume eggs because male chicks get into the shredder wich is fucking sick.
nowadays diary is still cruel because a cow makes usually 25 years while a diary cow gets 4 years lifetime while she gets constantly impregnated so she gives milk - the baby cow will be seperated. all get slaughtered
the thing is. my mother came from a farm where cows where treated very very good.
diary and eggs COULD be morally okay but not with todays industry.
Gabriel White
> To consume animal products, like dairy and eggs, you don't HAVE TO kill the animal, or treat it badly. Their treatment is just a part of the industry and is a SECOND-HAND action. >If you want to be a logical consistent person, you can't seriously be expected to be responsible for all your SECOND-HAND actions.
That's like buying food from ISIS, then finding out their food is produced through slave labor and that their profits go towards more guns and bombs, and that they kill their slaves after a few years of servitude, and then being like "I'm not paying them to kill people, I'm only funding terrorism SECOND-HAND"
Wyatt Collins
If I took into consideration how people / animals / whatever the fuck are mistreated when I buy commodities, I'd probably not buy a damn thing.
There's always someone getting fucked, even Jose who picked my tomatoes.
John Smith
Consuming electricity is not immoral. Also, we were talking about a fucking pair of sweatpants. Way to project all the insecurities and weak rationalizations you have for your diet into one response though. I'll address some of your concerns though.
>Conflating a diet with a single supplier of one component of that diet is fucking stupid and you know it. In my specific case, any alternative to a vegan diet would be immoral. Part of my ethics are that I want to minimize my contribution to animal exploitation. Anything that I consume which isn't vegan works against this moral goal. Sure, we can try to look past the immense pain and suffering caused by factory farming and say "just kill your own or buy local," but the reality is that local meat is still immoral (and not even an option for many people).
Dylan Ward
>There's always someone getting fucked, even Jose who picked my tomatoes.
Yeah, fuck Jose having a job
Samuel Ortiz
>probably probably as in, you probably (definitely) haven't researched ethical alternatives to your "commodities"
Matthew Gray
I forgot to address this >No amount of vegan bullshit will change the fact that animal products have been an important component of out diet for thousands of years.
>Also, we were talking about a fucking pair of sweatpants >I want to minimize my contribution to animal exploitation
HOW IS FORCED CHILD LABOR NOT ANIMAL EXPLOITATION YOU FLAMING FUCKING FAGGOT
ARE ALL VEGANS ZOOPHILIC SOCIOPATHS?
God damn this got me pissed
Jeremiah Rogers
>vegan in the url Dropped harder than your mom dropped you
Ayden Jenkins
Ok you are obviously not reading the responses that you are getting. Goodbye
Matthew Walker
>Hurrrrr I can just actively deny I have any impact on the worls bcuz I don't eat meat >anyone who says I'm wrong can't see I already said I don't eat meat Kys my man
Benjamin Stewart
We feed the dairy cows and the dairy cows feed us, if you're worried about their wellbeing buy freerange or biological
Caleb Wright
In terms of morals no. In terms of health yes. Like because of me not eating animals less animals will be killed. It is the same stupid-ass logic that states if you don't use electricity the dams and reactors will work less. Saving thin air and jerking your conscience off, that's what's happening in these cases.
Parker Roberts
Are you really this retarded? You know that the people you buy your eggs / dairy from torture the animals, you give them money (aka making it possible for them) and think you are not responsible for it in any way? And then you are talking about logically consistent? Fucking off yourself
Nathaniel Torres
fuck cows
Daniel Diaz
You guys seriously don't raise your own chickens?
Feels good living in countryside.
Only dairy I eat is Cheese. Can't give it up. It's my drug.
James Davis
My morals tell me it's immoral to be vegan. OP is an immoral fuck.
Alexander Baker
>There's literally no reason to be a vegan over a vegetarian There's no reason to be either
Samuel James
Exactly why is killing animals for the purpose of having something to eat immoral? Did God tell you this? In my opinion, vegans and vegetarians who don't eat meat/animal products for the sake of animals' well being are brainwashed or mentally ill.
Dylan Gray
>m-m-m-uh animals!!! >yet still browses Veeky Forums on his apple/samshit phone and buys all sorts of products that support slave labor and human rights violations in asia
Bet you bought your gf/wife a diamond ring as well(while she was secretly fucking tyrone)? poor african nigger children, even pussy ass vegans don't care about them.
what about those clothes? 8 year old kids in india go through all sorts of human rights violations to make them, how can you fucking support that you piece of shit?
Ian Moore
What's wrong with killing animals?
Henry Martinez
Stop trolling.
You buy eggs. The store recognises the demand and buys eggs from the farmer. The farmer recognises the demand for eggs and produces eggs. In order to maximise profits, he does so in conditions that are efficient but inhumane. Animals suffer.
Same for dairy cows.
Your rebuttal?
Dominic Harris
>your vegan fallacy is.com
Hahahahaha holy shit!
Mason Russell
Your second premise is wrong.
The rest of the argument is fine and it's coherent.
But by eating eggs you kind of kill the small chickens that are male because they don't keep them for breeding.
And a cow for producing milk (Don't even get me started on the inbreed problems with the way they're made, must be even worse in amerisuck) it needs to be impregnated again and again so you're also a little responsible for veal consumption.
You can't just put this under the carpet as second hand harm.
Even though you can't prevent every second hand action as you call them you should prevent the ones that involve extreme cruelty like sweatshops, killing of animals or non fair trade food and so on.
I think this is pretty conclusive if you want to give a fuck about anything.
Anthony Williams
I'm not paying 100 dollars for a 20 dollar pair of jeans just to avoid "sweatshops"
Bentley Cook
Hijacking this thread because I've been vegetarian for one month now. I feel fine - not much change - but I'm worried about nutrient deficiencies. Should I start taking a multi? Can't be arsed to track my nutrients all day every day btw.
Jayden Bailey
Ill just be vegan because its healthiet a ton and also i dont need extra estrogen in my body. When im on bulk, im vegan. On acut it help me eating flesh and stuff.
Joseph Bailey
The only deficiency you need to worry about is B12 and since you're vegetarian and not vegan you are OK
Joseph Lewis
In my opinion the best case scenario for an animal raised for meat is still better than an animal raised best case scenario for dairy. For meat there is one death, the animal, and that animal can live outside and live a good life, in the best case. For the best case of a dairy cow, they will have to be impregnated and their calf taken away. The calf is then killed, it's very rare for the calf to be kept alive. Repeat until the cow is spent, and then she'll be killed. This is still the best case scenario for a dairy cow. All dairy farms do this. Not eating dairy but eating meat is maybe more ethical than eating dairy all the time (which most vegetarians do) but no meat.
Easton Allen
Also farmers wouldn't keep the calf alive and lose a lot of money for "muh ethics", as they wouldn't waste money keeping a dairy cow alive after she stops being useful, little family farms barely have enough money to stay open nevermind have enough money to keep profitless animals alive for the sake of it.