So assuming you can do both Pendlay Rows and Power Cleans with good form...

So assuming you can do both Pendlay Rows and Power Cleans with good form, which gives you more carryover to improving the Deadlift? I currently do SS and love power cleans but it's not asy to get away with them in public gyms and was considering replacing them with Pendlay rows, for two reasons mainly,

1: They draw a lot of presumably negative attention from onlookers
2: Most programs don't really allow proper inclusion of Power cleans so in my search for an intermediate program I always run into the "Where do cleans go?" question

Depends why your deadlift sucks and why you aren't dedicating that volume to more deadlifting.

How do power cleans draw more negative attention? Whenever I pendlay row people stare and some clueless gym worker tells me to 'control the movement' so it doesn't make as much noise.

>1: They draw a lot of presumably negative attention from onlookers
If you're doing Pendlay Rows or PCs properly, they'll draw the same amount of attention. You're not supposed to be slamming the weight down at the end of the rep on either.

>2: Most programs don't really allow proper inclusion of Power cleans so in my search for an intermediate program I always run into the "Where do cleans go?" question
If you're coming up with your own intermediate template, just fit them where you want. You can do both rows and PCs, it won't kill you. But if you're sticking with pre-made programs I don't see why you're so eager to go about changing things around if you can't figure out something like PC placement

My deadlift doesn't suck, I'm wondering if cleans will provide superior off the floor power compared to pendlay rows, and was wanting to know early on so I could start investing my efforts into higher back squat frequency and adding Pendlay rows in place of cleans.

My B day is Power clean, front squat, press, and some chins

Pendlay Rows are a horizontal shoulder extension, cleans are vertical extension, with posterior chain involvement as well. You can't swap them out 1 for 1 and the clean will have more carryover to the deadlift. If you don't want to do power cleans in a public gym try Romanian deadlifts or speed deadlifts with less than 50% of your 5rm.

Cleans - at least done properly - are not used for off the floor power.

That's too light for speed work IMO. For regular folks it works better in the 70-80% range, least as far as deadlift singles go.

Rows will train your upper back, deadlifts and squats will train your lower back. Power cleans in SS are a meme. If you're training for a certain goal that requires them you probably shouldn't be doing SS anyway.

>You're not supposed to be slamming the weight down at the end of the rep

You're not meant to add momentum, but you're not meant to control the descent any more than necessary either. If the bar doesn't slam when you're rowing more than 3 plate you're doing it wrong.

Well I'm programming my intermediate routine but i don't know if i want to use the TM template or the Greg Nuckols template.

I already have the TM plans written up but dont like the 1-2 times per week frequemcy on upper body presses

Please do elaborate? and by off the floor power I just mean as an off the floor pull

>You're not meant to add momentum, but you're not meant to control the descent any more than necessary either.
With proper equipment and form, you're not going to be slamming shit around.

>f the bar doesn't slam when you're rowing more than 3 plate you're doing it wrong.
Except we're talking about an intermediate lifter. If a motherfucker is Pendlay rowing 3 pl8s, he's a) on the high end of intermediate at least, and b) probably not doing that shit in a gym where they care about slamming weights

The power in a clean is pretty much all developed when the bar is at the thighs. It's a fairly normal speed movement before that point, so it doesn't tend to have much carryover to strength off the floor.

>proper equipment and form
You mean bumper plates? never used them but I suppose it wouldn't make as much noise

>high end of intermediate
I'm novice really. I'm just fat (6'3, 260lbs) and my row is way ahead of my other lifts, other than OHP. I train at my college gym.

True, 50% is too light for a speed single, I was thinking more for 5x5 or 3x8.

If OP is modifying SS he is already maxing out deadlifts 1.5 times a week. No need to go crazy but obv adjust any advice to what feels good for you.

When I do them I drop into my DL position, lock my lats, hits high, jump through the heels and hip extend adding to the momentum the first pull, them flip myself under the bar, and catch it, I dont think its technically right but it works great

That feel when five different guys approached me as I was trying to do pendlay rows

"You gotta hold the weight in the air brah"

the position you pull a clean from and the position you pull a deadlift from are substantially different for most people.

they are different lifts and there will be minimum carry over. you're basically going to be teaching yourself conflicting motor patterns.

i train in an oly gym with an established coach etc. and we don't deadlift, ever, unless general strength is lacking. doing it too much will fuck the clean up. we do clean deads but that is a different exercise.

i dont know too much about powerlifting but our philosophy at our gym is that if a certain part of a lift is weak, then train that part of the lift and the muscle groups involved... meaning if your have trouble pulling off the floor, we pull off the floor and train our hamstrings with RDLs and shit.

basically if your deadlift sucks off the floor then practice pulling deads off the floor. i'm sure there's all sorts of powerlifting shit you can do to work that.

but to answer the question, the row has better carryover than the clean. the clean should have a very slow and deliberate bar speed off the floor. it's just a completely different movement than the deadlift.

btw i started with SS, it's good shit. not sure why i'm in this shithole rn

The philosophy in powerlifting tends to be about 50% 'fix the damn muscles' and 50% 'spend more time in the position you suck at'. So a weak pull off the floor would generally be approached by diagnosing why it sucks, doing assistance work based on those weaknesses and doing some deficit or paused or similar deadlifts as major lifts to try and bludgeon the weakness out of things.

There tends to be less specificity than in oly since there's just less to fuck up and less work needed to attain/maintain efficient technique.

that's about what we do, you just worded it way more eloquently lol

but yeah if a certain position sucks then there is a reason why. could be as simple as moving your shoulders forward or could be as complicated as fucked up daily posture

The main difference is that powerlifting tends to be much, much more willing to get away from the competition lifts and make use of similar movements that would be too prone to fucking up movement patterns for oly use. You wouldn't see oly lifters stop cleaning entirely for entire training blocks or start pulling their cleans from a deficit or similar but you'll often see stuff like that with powerlifters.

Sometimes the simplicity gives you more freedom. And sometimes it results in people thinking reverse band chain-weight good mornings off pins with the cambered bar are a good idea.

t. never read SS

Power cleans support the Deadlift and sports specific movement by maintaining the display of power in relation to developing strength.

If you don't know why that's important, you need to shut the fuck up.

Power cleans, by a long shot.

Do Texas Method with deadlifts on Monday for a heavy set of five, and power cleans on Friday for 5 sets of 3, possibly alternating 2x6 power snatches if you can be bothered with them.

Cleans and power cleans shouldn't be pulled from the same position.

You pull a 'true' clean off the ground much lower, power clean from roughly the same position as a deadlift (with adjustments for grip etc obviously.) that's why rippletits advocates them as a Deadlift accessory.

Rip is basically the only coach in the world who thinks like this. The definition of a power clean - as used by pretty much everyone not named Mark Rippetoe - is identical to a clean save for the catch height (which is above parallel rather than at full depth, same difference between snatches and power snatches).

what? no. the only difference is the height at which the athlete receives the barbell and the factors that cause the athlete to do so. start positions/grip/etc are all the same between the clean and p cl