Did the Mayans and Aztecs know about the Incas and vice versa?

>They also did not keep a history in the way we perceive
What did he mean by this?

yeah, good luck crossing the darien dap by foot lol

well the clovis niggas did it with an IQ of -80 and then decimated the megafauna

Different climate i imagine

lol

neet, what's it called?

chibcha?

Yes. There is evidence of bronze smelting in the West coast of Mexico, probably from exchange with Inca or Inca allied states. I can't remember EXACTLY which of the following articles makes full assertion but it's one of 'em, and probably the first and the last one:

>Ancient West Mexican Metallurgy: South and Central American Origins and West Mexican Transformations
>Sound, Color and Meaning in the Metallurgy of Ancient West Mexico
>FOR WHOM THE BELLS FALL: METALS FROM THE CENOTE SAGRADO, CHICHÉN ITZÁ
>Metal Artifacts in Prehispanic Mesoamerica
>Metallurgical ceramics from Mayapán, Yucatán, Mexico
>The Huastec Region: A Second Locus for the Production of Bronze Alloys in Ancient Mesoamerica

Wow.

>darien gap
"there is no road connection through the Darién Gap connecting North America with South America and it is the missing link of the Pan-American Highway."

wtf we still don't have direct over-land contact through that area. Incredible.

Well the Aztecs had distant trading networks with the Anasazi in New Mexico, so I'm sure there was some kind of contract through trade and a lot of intermediary tribes. Probably moreso with the Inca and Maya or Olmec than the Aztecs. It wouldn't have been frequent and neither empire probably ever tried to invade the other, they had their own spheres of influence and kept out of each other's way. Also llamas would have been useful in central America but they never seemed to make it there. So what contact there was was very minor, as far as we can tell.

Y'see you gotta remember states like Moche and Sican and a few others were pretty impressive with seafaring tech, primitive as it may have been. Spondylus collections in non flood seasons, basic fishing, interactions with orcas. Given that these and the later Inca states had trade and extraction power through the northeast end of Ecuador for access to emeralds, I don't think it's too wild to assume that there was a minor to modest trade route hugging the coast into northwestern Central America.

wtf where the scottish thinking to build a colony there

I don't actually doubt the Olmec thing but until we can reconstruct the archaeology of the Amazon basin before the greening and jungle-fication with any confidence it's still speculation.

>llamas
Hard to raft a llama, mate, even infants/juveniles.

Blame the FARC and other paramilitaries for that.

Right now its called Guayabo. Not much is known about them, but they did had kingdom that went from the Atlantic coast to the Pacific. Rather small considering how smal CR is.

Not Chibcha. We dont really know who they were.

Interesting.

It does seem vaguely Chibcha but from just a single pic it looks just as much Kogi-Taino.

>FARC
Who are?

Google it faggot.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolutionary_Armed_Forces_of_Colombia

Apparently there are similarities in the tales of the Sun and Moon of the Maya and that of the Xingu in the Amazon. I am wondering if they had direct or indirect contact in that direction as well.

They may have, I know nahua colonies are believed to have made it as far south as Panama.

There were indirect trade lines going between the Andes, Mesoamerica, and Southwest/central US, but there was no direct contact and they likely didn't know about each other.

As says, there are some theories that some West Mexican groups were descended from or got their relatively advanced metallurgy from south american ones that may have gone up the western coast of the americas, but my understanding is that this has mostly been debunked.

>my understanding is that this has mostly been debunked
I'd love to see a hard challenge to this notion because I've barely heard idea put on the table to begin with.

>mostly debunked
How so? There are west mexican records of rafts coming from the south to trade with them and going back when the weather gets better. Even the metallurgic art is similar and the dates coincides with the origin of mesoamerican bronze.

I'm just going off of what i've read about it, it's not something I can say I know so much about or have such an interest in I can recall it off hand.

I'll try to find what I read for you guys later, it's midnight here and I need to head to bed.

While I'm posting this though, I will say that in case the user doing the mesoamerican mega folder is still around, that you stopped checking thr throw awau email address you sent me and I still wanna work with you on finding stuff to add to the mega and made progress with tracking down more scott and stuart gentling art of tenochtitlan.

I saw an user one time post a source saying that the Inca and Aztec had indirect trade with eachother through a few other tribe/societies implying that they "knew" of eachother but did not have contact with eachother.
Of course we also know of how many records were lost during the European exploration so there is little to no evidence of 15th-16th century maps drawn up by Inca or Aztec.

Hold on though, lemme see if I can find some sources on the indirect trade at least.

From what I've read, I think Aztecs and Mayans might have known of southern empires due to trading with states in between. Apparently Jade was traded from the Mayan Highlands all the way to the Incans, so it's possible that the Incans may have understood that there were empires north of them just based on Mayan jade sculptures alone. But there were many other things traded too, so... I don't think there was ever any direct contact but they must have known that they existed.

Lmao Im not the user you are talking about, but I agree with xie.

Graham Hancock's work seems to indicate that they all were started by the same man or the same group wandering the Americas and teaching people how to be civilized.

>the user doing the mesoamerican mega folder is still around, that you stopped checking thr throw awau email address you sent me and I still wanna work with you on finding stuff to add to the mega and made progress with tracking down more scott and stuart gentling art of tenochtitlan
You mean me?
mega.nz/#F!MUxTjKLY!VAJcCZjzorB9v8FBAZOTaw

Most of his shit doesn't even make sense.

I don't think so, the mega from that user was mega.nz/#F!vtQ2EIKK!Z7R8gN5vTsfalKDn18jOmw

If it was you, I think the fact I mentioned Scott and Stuart Gentling would immediately remind you who I was and what we are working on.

If it is you though, then if you could continue to check that throw away email address you gave me/and or email me an actual email address of yours (just send it to the throw away gave you) I have in case you stop checking the throw away again, i'd appreciate it.

Not me.
NIce folder tho.

Damn, oh well. I might take over the mega myself if I can't ever get in contact with the guy again. Would you wanna combine the two if I do?

Take what you want; I'm the occult dude so I'm only expressly interested in that which furthers either reconstruction or earnest practice of Meso or Amerind systems.

ok Im samefag as this. here's what I found, Ill greentext copypasta and footnote links.

>Aztec traders primarily traded gold, copper and jade for items such as chocolate, vanilla, and rubber. 1
>Historians believe that the Inca traded as far north as western Mexico. They base this on clothing styles, pottery, hairless dogs, and the fact that the Tarascan language is very similar to the Inca language of Quechua. 1
>he Tarascans were the archenemies of the Aztecs, carving an empire of their own in the contemporary Mexican states of Michoacán, Guanajuato, Guerrero, Querétaro, Colima, and Jalisco. 2
>Many of the cultural traits of western Mexico have closer
parallels with Andean areas such as Colombia and Peru than they do with the rest of
Mesoamerica, and the cultural evolution of the Pacific region must be considered as principally
the product of outside influences. 3
>That contact between Mesoamerica and Andean South America began early and continued
late obviously means that the intervening journey was completed successfully numerous times,
with people, goods, and ideas being exchanged on repeated occasions. 3
>Prized white cotton could not grow at the altitude of the Valley of Mexico and had to be imported from conquered semi-tropical regions further south, as were cacao beans, from which chocolate is made. 4

1. mayaincaaztec.com/mainaztr.html
2. etc.ancient.eu/interviews/meet-the-tarascans-fierce-foes-of-the-aztecs/
3. dartmouth.edu/~izapa/M-28.pdf
4. historyonthenet.com/aztec-economy-regional-markets-and-long-distance-trade/

>Tajaderas Used by all classes in Aztec society, tajaderas, or hoe money, was made of thin copper and had a standard weight and size.5
>In a similar way the hoe money system developed in South America and was quickly adopted in Central America. However, further information and research is required. For instance, the Moche people of northern Peru had double pan balance scales to accompany their emerging hoe technology, yet there is no obvious standardized weight system for the individual hoes. As the photo captions indicate, hoes found in a Mexican hoard do have a wide variance in size and weight. Perhaps this problem was solved somewhat by trading them in large groups. In Ecuador stacks of hoe money have been found in similar-sized groups of up to 500 in a stack.6

5. legendsandchronicles.com/ancient-civilizations/the-ancient-aztecs/aztec-economy-trade-and-currency/
6. scribd.com/document/358556157/Hoe-Money-of-the-Americas-Martin

Yeah bro, 150 years.

so op based on what I found there are a few things that give us a basic idea of what contact they had with eachother through trade.

one being chocolate and vanilla. chocolate and vanilla arent grown widely in the centers of neither the Incan or Aztec Empires but rather farther south for the Aztec and farther North.
Pochteca, Far Distance Traders of the aztec would have had to travel far south to get chocolate beans and by that notion we could assume that an aztec trader would have possibly at some point heard the word Inca or met a trader that was indirectly or possible directly also trading chocolate beans to Incans.

there is also the strong familiarity in Language with the Tarascans and Inca regions in Peru, implying that it is entirely possible that these two peoples had contact at some point between the 11th century ad and 15/16th century.

currency is the last thing. the copper currency sharing strong similarities and parallel developments of standardizing the weight imply that it is entirely possible that due to the rise of these two empires and the spread of longer and longer distance trade that there was the need or want to standardize the copper weight of the proto-currency and the notion that while one empire (inca) had attempted to standarize its currency, the other followed shortly after (aztec).

im gona do some research on old maps of either empire and see what I find.

Can you save this info on the mega folder?

Native American history needs lots of revisionism, we know more about the subjected cultures of the Inca than the Incas themselves.

Can all eurangutans evacuate this thread? only true inca are be qualified to discuss this topic.

>tfw you lost a bet about “walking naked across the americas”

It doesn't matter how much butthurt you have right now. Amerindian superiority will still be a fact, no matter your whinings. Give up and stop spamming.

He means Conquistadors burned all their documents so now Catholics claim with a straight face that they HAD no documents.

and actually the biggest piece of evidence that there was at least one direct contact between the Aztec and Inca is the fact that the Spanish found the Inca.
Using Aztec connections they were able to locate the Incan peoples and eventually... well as history goes.

this copypasta doesn't even count as a 2ndary source but it has some neat Aztec maps it looks like so here's the greentext info and link to see the maps on the page.

>The Spanish conquerors admitted using local native maps on their journeys of conquest extending from Mexico - and Moctezuma was reported tracking the location of Hernán Cortés and his men via a series of painted maps drawn by his spies/ambassadors. When Cortés asked Moctezuma for information on ports along the Gulf Coast, Moctezuma gave him a map showing the location of all the coastal rivers and coves.

mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/ask-us/maps

>scottish
>thinking

>Graham Hancock

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA

sure thing user, only thing is these cites barely pass as scholarly, if anything they are just for general knowledge, though I'll look into them deeper to see where they got their sources and hopefully find some sort of trail leading me to actual secondary and primary sources.

I'd love to be involved in this whole Veeky Forums revisionism of Mesoamerica tbf, but I'm a grad student myself and have a great deal of work on my plate as it is. perhaps in my free time I will do it for Veeky Forums.

Bump

>grad student
Me too. I'm just compilling several info from south-American paleoindian, bronze spread and agriculture, also if you want to know about Incan writing, you can check Gail Silverman, she is not a fringe "historian", she is a notorious historian from Peru, yet her last book from some years ago claims that the tocapu textiles were a written language. And she seems to have identified some suffixes and such.

The copper currency is the most telling thing imho, chocolate and vanilla, eh, so both cultures valued the same obviously valuable crops, but the currency clearly has a single shared source, which is more likely metal-using Peru rather than stone-age Mexico. It reminds me a little of the Indus Valley weights and measures found all over Sumeria, good ideas spread along trade routes.

They also sailed up the coast as far as Alaska, they didn't need the Mexicans to find Peru.

good point actually, the chocolate was actually hard for me to connect and had to read through several links before i found a minuscule connect, but the proto coins were definitely connected somehow and i found a few other hits on the connection as well. might do some more research on the coins before i hit the hay.

>written language
no fuckin shit, that is some revolutionary stuff right there. def checking her out.

>quipu

She has a site where she lays out her evidence;
tocapu.org/

Not quipu, but textil tocapus. Also the website is not hers, but actually a compilation of well-preserved tocapu textiles of the incan empire and other post-hispanic arrival.

my question is, would it have been easier for the Aztec and Mayans to travel in the Caribbean Sea or Pacific ocean. and if it was the Caribbean sea, is it possible that this is a major factor as to why the two did not have contact?
It has been found before that the Inca traversed the Pacific but how far and how North?

aztech coins and goods showed up well into north america (like the Cherokee and iraqouri) before cortez at least, show an extensive trade network was already established in the new world, it is not a far flung idea that the incas knew of the aztecs, though they probably never met.

The Aztec didn't have a naval presence, they were pretty much a land power. Mayapan is, of course, on the Caribbean, so doubtless the Maya would have used that as their "sea-lane".

So would you agree that its a possibility that seafaring and that there lack of contributed to this indirect contact between the three?

Distance is what caused that. Look at Meluhha and Sumer, they traded but not directly, and they both had decent naval abilities.

I'm not too sure. I don't know much about the Meluhha and Sumerians seafaring abilities. judging off of the time though, I dont see how a sea trade was possible or even profitable enough to bother given their distance and naval tech. a journey from the shores of Pakistan to the interior or even just the coast of Iraq in the Persian Gulf could have possibly been a fortnight travel. Would that have been possible or profitable given the trade capabilities. trade then was only profitable in that instance if the quantity was high, and if a vessel could actually haul a large enough quantity, hold enough men to function the ship and take all that time and still have the trip be profitable then there was still the factor of why there is no evidence they did this. Sure distance is a reason but even if they could do it, it probably wasn't ideal given the time period.
When discussing the Aztec though, in my various research tonight I saw an account that was cited where the Spanish encountered an aztec vessel the size of a Galleon holding a crew of 20+ men. This of course was off the coast of Mexico in the Caribbean and not in the Pacific. I believe that the Aztecs had better naval capabilities than the Sumerians or Meluhha. Their probably may have been similar however where there was no reason to traverse the Pacific, because the Caribbean had much more trade capabilities than the Pacific did. Had they invested time and traversed down the Pacific in search for trade and spent time, I believe its possible they could have encountered the Inca along their way.

however this is relatively bs and nothing more than an uneducated guess, ill spend some time researching it later on and get back to you or post in a new thread.

Iirc incans sailed to polynesia. A claomed peruvian historian compiled the proof he got in "Tupac Yupanqui Descubridor de Oceanía"

Meluhha and Sumer both had dhows, much like the ships Muslims kept using right up until Europeans BTFO of them. They're not especially sea-worthy but of course you can simply hug the coast all the way from Pakistan to the Gulf, and we know Meluhhans reached as far as Dilmun (modern Bahrain), so they COULD have reached Sumer itself. Just, there's no direct evidence and most scholars think the trade they conducted between them (which was considerable) was all via middlemen.

You're thinking of the Kon Tiki expedition, which proved it's POSSIBLE to reach polynesia from Peru, but idk that there is any evidence they did so and no serious scholar claims they did. Polynesia was settled from Asia, and no trace of pre-Asian settlers has ever been found there.

The kon tiki expedition only proved that they could saild there, which can be omitted now. The thing is that the carving dating of Rapanui is related to the dates from Tupac Yupanqui which is said to have sailed to west through Pacific Ocean and reached two islands before coming back with animals and plants. The supposed islands are Mangareva and Rapanui. Mangareva retains cultural heritage from the incan arrival, and rapanui seems to lack oral tradition, yet has a legend of small people with elongated ears (incas elongatd their ears and were smaller than polynesians) coming to the island and enslaving them making them building and carving stuff. Then the natives of rapanui rebelled and killed them, carving the moais as symbol of rebellion against future enslaver foreigners coming to the island.

It's also known the inca wall on rapanui.

thats pretty interesting actually. Still though, would they have bothered trading at this point?

Questions to answer:
>Capable of hauling a large enough quantity of goods that otherwise would have just been available at ye old market of the middleman
>Profitable enough to even bother where the profit gained was worth the pay in, food cost for the voyage, labor, and profit in sales from cutting out the middle man

other factors for the voyage not being worth it
>Pirates? how frequent or present were pirates back then?
>Tide, Sea, and weather conditions? Were these all well known at that time and were there certain times of the years that made it not possible or worth the potential loss of life?

once we answer these things, then we can start making better assumptions about the Aztec and Inca. If Distance was not just a factor for the two civilizations thousands of years ago then was Distance not so simply the reason why the Inca and Aztec not reach eachother. Perhaps They just wernt looking in the right places? The Aztec saw better advantages in the Caribbean and the Inca only had availability in the Pacific.

>Profitable

Well there's the sticking point of course. They didn't trade wheat or anything low-value like that, they traded bronze (both "ox-hide" ingots and finished items) and valuable minerals such as lapi lazuli (the Sumerians loved this stuff, they used it for the "eyes" of their god-idols). But this is prestige goods, not the kind of thing you ferry back and forth day by day but rather the kind of thing you might go out looking for once a year or so. Food for the voyage wasn't a problem for Meluhha and Sumer, there were habitations the length of the course where they could buy more food, but it would have been an issue for the Aztecs and Inca, doubly so given they had no real non-perishable foods (maize doesn't "keep" like wheat and rice do). Pirates, in the Bronze Age they existed but mostly in the Med, idk much about any piracy in the Gulf and Indian Oceans, tho of course there probably was some. The Aztecs would have had a serious problem with this, tho, because the Pacific seaboard was rife with naval powers who might interfere with foreign traders.

Well the sweet potato is indigenous to the Andes region but they migrated to Oceania well before 1492. Some scholars argue that Polynesian traders visited South America as early as 1000 CE.

>I saw an account that was cited where the Spanish encountered an aztec vessel the size of a Galleon holding a crew of 20+ men

I'm no expert but that sounds suspiciously similar to the first spanish encounter with people of the inca empire, so maybe you mixed up
I can't recall something similar happening with the aztecs

I could believe polynesians reached Peru, but not that Peruvians reached polynesia. I don't think there's good evidence for either, tho.

God damnit you guys. Now all I want to do is find that link between Aztec and Inca even if it was one small encounter where two guys were like "hey im from user clan of the user tribe under the Aztecs" and the other one saying "I'm a user people of the Incan empire, heres some maize, for the chocolate."

>"Hey dude, my name is Hutlapozlataclacanabacalatabanalikomadatli, wassup?"
>"..."
>[HUMAN SACRIFICE INTENSIFIES]

Chegged!!

Hey sorry I forgot my email login since it was a throwaway and was away for a while. Let me make a new one.

Anyone have the original?

...

...

Graham Hancock also believes the Ark of the Covenant is an antediluvian super weapon currently hidden by a secret society of technomancers in the Ethiopian highlands who are only masquerading as ignorant tribespeople to hide their true nature.

The Maya and Aztecs knew each other and both shared a lot of ideas and concepts and whatnot, the Inca did not know the Aztecs or Maya but they knew some more northern Andean tribes who had contact with central American Indians who had contact with the Mesoamericans. I guess you could say they knew each other but only very indirectly. The Inca did however know of the Polynesians

The sweet potato is NOT indigenous from the Andes it is a yam. The primary crops the Inca had were potatoes, quinoa, and a few other obscure ones as well as coca which is the primary ingredient in cocaine

>Aztec coins
Proofs

They used "axes" as currency, so they don't show any kind of use deterioration. Also there is a point when the size is standarized. The same happened with Chimu southamericans.

Didn't some Egyptian Pharaoh send some Phoenicians around Africa? I remember reading about it some time ago. It suppose take them 4 years.

Why not?
There were some user who show some evidence and it interesting and worth consideration.
Also check this map. It fit pretty well with that.

I think him talking about that human civilizations and some artifacts are much older than you think but sometimes he start telling stuff that make you doubt that he is clean.

>Killed a lot of natives americans
What is the reason for doing that?

>Egyptian Pharaoh send some Phoenicians around Africa?
source

i know Hanno de Navigator from carthage navigated africa

Who gives a shit what kind of gutter-IQ smelly satan worshipping child cannibals had contact with each other?