What's the excuse for the native Amerimutts not creating a civilization despite having a vast arable land and the...

>North American Indians lagging behind because these resources weren't readily available or easy to find
That last part, mostly.
If my archaeology still serves me, NA was utterly obsessed with native copper, as it was littered every fucking where and you could cold hammer it. It was so abundant that for early complex culture needs it filled just about any role you seriously needed.

Plains nomadicism is a recent phenomenon, iirc, from the colonial push from all direction displacing populations to the interior and the introduction of the horse.

They weren't even that much behind really. I blame westerns for making people think all North American Indians were just retarded nomadic buffalo hunters.

Flint and chert, mate. For the Mississippians, there were a few loci.

>westerns for making people think all North American Indians were just retarded nomadic buffalo hunters.
Pretty much this. The only exposure most people have as to what a "Native American" is comes from Westerns, so everyone just assumes that Sioux and Comanches were what the entire continent was like.

So what were they really like

>t. Brainlet who got everything he knows about Indians from Westerns

See

Central Americans aren't descendants of Aztecs you retard. If anything they descend from the Mayans, at least some of them.

Definitely some feels of Sumer/Babylon in the Hohokam/Mogollon complex. Their irrigation system was impressive af.

I'm talking about creating empires, innovating and creating a writing system, you know, like China or India.

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It was. I live in Phoenix and the canals we have now are still patterned after the Hohokam ones.

Seems like a fair number of Mississippian groups were doing a protowriting thing considering the uniformity of geoglyphs in and around karst systems.

Cahokia seems to have been something of an imperial scale influence extending outward for a few hundred miles in all directions; walls were built between the Mississippi and Ohio rivers to either keep out the Cahokia or pen in the Lower Mississippians.

The Mogollon/Old Pueblo groups also had a pretty massive cultural horizon, all things considered.

mogollon haha lol

Took a long time for humans to get there from Africa. Also migrration took a longer time from north to South America because of the varied climates. Humans where just settling South America where Egypt had a complex society

You have terrible reading comprehension and you should feel bad

Norte Chico was contemporary and concurrent to Naqada III.

U are a reductive IQ-fag, even in ethnicities with lower average IQs there is always a subset with "genius level" quotients, who, depending on ambition will make up the leaders, scholars, and artists of their society. (Reducing it to IQ is fucking stupid, that shit is 80% pattern recognition that doesn't take into account divergent thought/creativity)

t. average iq guy whos contributed nothing to civilization

Creativity is correlated with IQ thats why geniuses can imagine shit we cant.

Raven tasks (the IQ tests where people match patterns) are supposed to be culture-neutral but we know for a fact that exposure to geometrically ordered environments during the formative years is what induces vulnerability to certain optic illusions. So it stands to reason the aptitude to make sense of the geometric shapes that make up Raven's tasks is environmentally-conditioned.

not enough animals native to america that could be domesticated, like cows or sheep. buffalo are too big and strong to tame

This. The greatest factor in the development of technology is non-human energy, and the Amerindians lacked draft animals in comparison to the old worlders

Thanks to European and African diseases.
They wipe out their urban centers and most if not all their leadership and high caste.
Rest either mixed, assimilated or get dragged down.
Its like you wipe most population leaving only rednecks and some outcasts(still decimated) because they get less exposure of diseases.
Whole system and society crumble and people revert to hunter gatherer because its easier way to survive than agriculture.
Craft and knowledge is lost and forgotten.
Spaniards land in Mexico and Peru not so long after diseases hit - they still observe their civilizations - failing but still impressive.
Anglos and French land later when everything was wiped out.
It was like Mad Max setting.

This

They used different system of food production.
First they domesticated or rather created plants like maize, potato, squash etc. They also have cotton which they make high quality products.
They also used fire to control and transform landscapes.

They did. White Europeans basically encountered the Mad Max version of native American cultures after disease wiped out 90ish% and society collapsed

I'm not saying that IQ tests are not useful measurement tools, I am however frustrated that they are used as a catch-all for predicting every sort of human potential/achievement. There are correlations with mental illness and creativity as well, is that a positive trait of anglos? The use of the word "intelligence" is troublesome, I think "Cognitive Abilities" is a much more useful phrase which denotes a more detailed explanation of how we function.

Also, you didn't address my point about statistical variance of low and high IQ's existing universally ethnicity-wise(not sure what people mean here when they say "culture" because observing discourse here it seems that to many, it's synonymous with race.)

>The intelligence of a ethnicity determines its future
Gee who would have thought?

Lets look at the facts, the central americans and mexicans do poor in school compared to whites meaning on average they are dumber than whites, central americans typically have much more primitive cultures than whites showing they are stupid, they also have constant poverty another telltale sign of genetic stupidity in a population. Finally their violent crime rate is higher than even african blacks meaning less impulse regulation compared to whites thus stupider by default. They are simply dumb fucks who would have been conquered by a more intelligent race eventually anyway.

Nice bait.(or maybe you're a member/sycophant of the fabled "alt right")

You'd think with this being Veeky Forums anons would have a notion of how geopolitical history, regardless of the continent directly affects societal and financial conditions; and, consequently education, crime rates, and various other social ills.

Intelligence of a population determines everything, if whites were 9 IQ points lower than average we would still be copper using savage tribes in the European wilderness you stupid fuck.

>intelligence of a population determines everything

lol, fair enough. Great thesis statement. It's good to have an opinion/"facts", just try to explain it with a little more nuance. The word intelligence is vague as fuck, you need to specify and put in context if you intend to not come across like a cucked 9th grader with fetal alcohol syndrome.

Intelligence the rate at which one processes and analyzes information in their brain consciously.

Thus you intelligence determines how limited your information processing is.

A retard like an african cannot process concepts that are abstract like trust empathy or friendship instead their brain processes only what they can see and name out

The higher the intelligence the more advanced the population as high intelligence is correlated with reduced impulses in a human being.

Humans used intelligence as an objective superiority measuring device since its what humans use to justify their supremacy over nonhuman animals thus if one group of humans is smarter than the other then its superior.
>but the indios evolved in their continent
So fucking what? The simply fact whitey can easily thrive in their landmass at a higher degree compared to them shows how stupid they are, same as how whitey turning Africa into a goldmine shows how braindead african blacks are.

The reality is until you modify the genes of indios they will always lag behind whites.

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IIRC there was a tribe using bronze toold next to Aztecs, Tarascans

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarascan_state#Metallurgy

Genuine question here.

Why is writing seen as a required benchmark by many scholars for what constitutes a civilization anyway? There were several complex societies with intricate social structures that lacked writing, and as such are not considered civilizations, such as the Mississippian cultures and megalithic cultures of Western Europe, but why?

>

I hate it when people forget the Mississippians were just among the last of the North American mound builders. Hopewell and Adena cultures before them for example, Old Copper Complex, and the Maritime Archaic were all connected with each other.

The Archaic period is criminally under investigated, and most of the evidence was pulverized by retarded protestants in the 19th century. The vast scale of their earthworks are often overlooked, and many if not most have been covered up by cities.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ocher_people

> the rate at which one processes and analyzes information in their brain consciously.
Wow, looks like we've got a blossoming neurologist on our hands

Where were these found? Did all natives have copper tools?

Though incomplete, it is a big part of intelligence. When given an abstract problem, the guy who analyzes it and solves it the fastest is probably the most intelligent.

Because its one of the three defining traits of a civilization, fucktard.
>why peepl thing only mammal can be dog?
>i see lot of lizard that is like dog, why they no dog?

>Did all natives have copper tools?
no
>Where were these found?
Great Lakes.

>societal collapse + foreign invasion
>sissified urban civilicucks eternally BTFO
>the only people who survived are the primitives and the savages
I told you about urbanites dawg.

Maybe partly, though I can't recall the last time I've encountered a truly "abstract" problem that I didn't create for myself. Computational power is best left to the computers, while functional understanding is (for now) the "human's" domain, and I don't believe that anyone is any more or less capable of understanding the functional nature of anything

Shit agricultural options. They basically had to base their alimentation around maize, which is fucking shit: takes hideously longer than most cereals to be domesticated, is far less nutritive (so effectively mandating that other cultures be developed at the same time), is much frailer and more cold-intolerant than cereals, making the little ice age basically an extinction event.

I mean there's a reason why the middle east is the cradle of civilization, in spite of there being many areas just as fertile or more: the wheat varieties that grew wild there are a truly exceptional food source.

IIRC, around Lake Michigan, they're part of the old copper culture. And no, it was pretty uncommon for cultures to have copper tools; it only happened in areas where surface copper was present, like the great lakes and parts of Mexico. That being said, copper artifacts did get traded more widely than most people would be aware of. I've excavated Mexican copper bells from Mogollon.

That's just what historians and archaeologists decided way back in the 19th century when they first started thinking about this stuff. That's really it, there is a good reason; academics like classifying things, and those are the categories they came up with, which were somewhat arbitrary. People focus less on ideas like that in academic circles now, but it's still pretty powerful in pop culture.

It's harder to learn about a civilization if they didn't record anything

useful link

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_archaeological_periods_(North_America)

I was posting about that in the "meso-inca contact" thread.
Articles to search on jstor or whatever.

>Ancient West Mexican Metallurgy: South and Central American Origins and West Mexican Transformations
>Sound, Color and Meaning in the Metallurgy of Ancient West Mexico
>FOR WHOM THE BELLS FALL: METALS FROM THE CENOTE SAGRADO, CHICHÉN ITZÁ
>Metal Artifacts in Prehispanic Mesoamerica
>Metallurgical ceramics from Mayapán, Yucatán, Mexico
>The Huastec Region: A Second Locus for the Production of Bronze Alloys in Ancient Mesoamerica

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windover_Archeological_Site

>As the sea level was considerably lower 7,000 to 8,000 years ago than it is today, the pond originally sat above the water table, and was filled only by rainfall and runoff from the surrounding land. At that time the pond had a relatively thin layer of peat under a thin layer of water.

>Windover is one of a number of Archaic period sites in Florida with underwater burials in peat. Similar burials occurred at Little Salt Spring 5,200 to 6,800 years ago, Bay West (in Collier County) 5,940 to 6,840 years ago, and Republic Grove (in Hardee County) 5,690 to 6,470 years ago. Stakes were driven into the peat through fabrics wrapped around bodies at Windover. Similar stakes were found associated with burials at Bay West and Republic Grove. The stakes may have been used to help hold the bodies underwater. There were also burials (although not in peat) in the sinkhole at Warm Mineral Springs, dating as much as 12,000 years ago. Robin Brown notes in connection with these underwater burials that many Native American groups have a tradition that spirits of the dead are blocked by water.

>Archaeologists at this site were able to recover a total of 86 pieces of fabric from 37 graves. These included seven different textile weaves, which appeared to have been used for clothing, bags, matting, and possibly blankets and ponchos. Numerous other artifacts, such as atlatls and projectile points, were also found at Windover.

>At least 90 of the recovered bodies had brain tissue that survived, due to the preservative effects of the peat. The state of preservation of the brain tissues indicated that the bodies were buried in the peat within 24 to 48 hours after death. This preservation allowed researchers to sequence DNA from the brains.[17][18] The DNA indicated Asian origin and a rare haplogroup, X.[19] The DNA also indicated that the same family used this grave site for over a century.[8]

>Early Archaic (6000 to 5000 BC)

>it was pretty uncommon for cultures to have copper tools
Eeeeeyyyyuuurrrgggghh, you'd be surprised at how much copper get pulled out of the obscure South Mississippian cites. Native copper may have been geographically restricted but boy howdy there sure seemed to be enough to go around.

To expand a tick on , the textbooks we used in upper level archaeo nerf that down to "record keeping", because it is sort of a fucky standard, that we consider the proto writing of the Aztecs indication of civilization but not any of the upper paeleo Euro cultures. Hell, some even had language with "optional" in brackets.

Dude, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Archaic_period_in_North_America

ikr

>there sure seemed to be enough to go around
I was mostly talking about tools, though. I'm aware a lot of copper got traded (which I why I mentioned that), but as far as I'm aware, most trade items were ornamental.

That being said, I'm mostly a historical archaeologist, and I've never had much to do with any of the places that produced copper so I'm fully willing to admit my knowledge about that stuff is pretty lacking.

Don't take the Solutrean troll's bait. He posts that same shit in every thread on pre-columbian america.

What was the city called? Do they know who built it?

>strawmans
lolling at this damage control

Can't handle the fact that the North American chalcolithic was interesting, huh?

...

>I was mostly talking about tools, though
OH, word, I see now.
I mean I ain't saying NA was on the cusp of a bronze age either I just wanted to toss out that copper wasn't exactly elite reserved or anything.

Is this like that "rate of development" guy/guys? Man, so many trolls here I don't keep up with. I get spooked because I use some of the same terms and info as that guy and don't wanna get lumped in.

Cahokia.

>Is this like that "rate of development" guy/guys?
you're responding to him right now

>the call was coming from inside the house
*sigh*
It was always too late.

Was there any way Native Americans could have survived ?
I heard only Incas could possibly survive as a state if they converted.Is it true?

>Was there any way Native Americans could have survived ?
I mean, they did.

But if you mean "mount a respectable defense", I think yes, there would have been a chance, if Cortes had gotten ARROW'd in his jailbreak attempt instead of his second in command taking it for the team.

Cortes showed the Aztec everything. EVERYTHING. He didn't TEACH everything, but they got the point. Meso was littered with the raw material for gunpowder and steel. If Cortes would have been routed it would have been at LEAST a year and a half before the Crown responded to the clusterfuck. Remember he was deliberately ignoring his order to stay put. It's a miracle things went as "well" as they did for his band.

Imagine if the Aztecs had a couple of years to shit out some midgrade steel and gunpowder, fortify the Gulf.

In any case the Mayans held on through the late 1600s so maybe read up on that.

W/r/t the Incas, I dunno. I get the sense from their astrotheology they were a culture who, BEFORE the Euros arrived, decided that the world was ending and they were gonna go out with guns blazing. Hence the Empire in the first place.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_conquest_of_the_Maya#Southern_lowlands,_1618–97

Well from what I read Incas had the most developed state structure and economy, and their religion was more suitable to conversion.

The Yucatan also had the Caste was in the late1800s, which coincided with the rise of a syncretic religious movement and featured Mayans revolting against the Mexican government. It was by and large the most successful indigenous revitalization movement in the Americas.

Vague title, astrotheology:
youtube.com/watch?v=oRSTy9ir6zs

William Sullivan was born in Boston, Massachusetts in 1946. He
attended Harvard College (BA History, 1968), and went on to serve two
years as a US Peace Corps volunteer near Udaipur, Rajasthan, India as
a village-level agricultural worker.

He studied the history of religion at Sherborne House (Glos.) under
the directorship of the late mathematician and philosopher J G
Bennett. He holds an MLitt degree from the Centre for Latin American
Linguistic Studies at the University of St Andrews (thesis topic:
'Quechua Star Names' based on ethno-astronomical fieldwork into the
star names known by present-day Indians of Peru and Bolivia), as well
as a PhD from the Centre for Amerindian Studies at the University of
St Andrews (1987) for research on which Secrets of the Incas is based.

How Christian was it?
>The Indian Christ, The Indian King
Fuck I need to read that asap.

sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707616292#sc4

The Sioux get memed to death because of a single battle but they're objectively the shittiest American Indians to ever exist.

>hundreds of verities of maize
>potatoes
>yams
>squash
>beans
>peppers
>tomato
>strawberry
>cranberry
>maple syrup
>sunflowers
Just to name a few, The Americas had fuck tons of agricultural developments

and when most of them are killed off and the survivors are shamed for knowing their history/culture

wait, natives had maple syrup?
>drinking rye mixed with 1/4 part maple syrup and a touch of water atm

>shitloads of nuts
>yucca
>manioc
>papaya
>pawpaw
>agave
>avocado
>blueberry

If by survive, you mean possibly push the white man back and not get totally wiped out, honestly, no.

Even if the collective forces of the native Americans were on technologically equal terms with Europeans, by far the greatest killer of the natives were the white man's diseases from being around so much livestock. There are multiple battles in colonial history where native American forces absolutely crushed opposition, but there just weren't enough numbers in the end, because everybody was dying of either smallpox or measles.

Unless you go back tens of thousands of years and introduce cow shit to the continent of North America, native Americans wouldn't stand a chance because of the diseases alone.

>How Christian was it?
That's actually subject to debate because the cult of the talking cross still isn't totally understood by outsiders, and there's some evidence of similar imagery being present in pre-columbian Mayan religion. I've seen some people argue that it was an entirely indigenous movement, but that seems like an exaggeration. My impression is that it's similar to movement like the Indian Shaker Church that use Christian terminology (and imagery, to an extent), but with a general philosophy that's Native, and with an overall theme of indigenous identity and strength. In the case of the Talking Cross, it was also focused on resistance. Some people still follow it, by the way; shrines to the Talking Cross aren't super uncommon in rural Yucatan.

Also, in case my typo wasn't obvious, I'm talking about the Caste War.

By survive I mean Incan puppet state, similar to Ethopia

>united multiple tribes into a union
>based on laws
>lessons and rules embodied in wampum belts that leaders had to commit fully to memory
>central governing councils with a major chief council based in Onondaga territory
>strong regional military power
seems like civilization to me

Aleluia is also a thing. Search "Bichiwung".

Speaking of Shakers, see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taki_Unquy

yeah, it wasnt really processed like it is today but knowledge of harvesting sap and boiling it up came from natives who taught it to fur traders.

didn't they inspire the Articles of Confederation?

Well since it's brought up, could you elaborate on this "rate of development" concept?

oh that changes a lot of things, but still doesn't make it very likely.

the greatest of the american civilizations took their religion really damn seriously, and the crux of establishing a peaceful relationship with the Euros would have been to accept their religion or ultimately face destruction in the name of heretical slaughter. but many native american leaders and important figures, elected to or raised in nobility almost entirely because of their devotion to their society's religion, refused to believe these hokey foreigners telling them to suddenly believe in something or die. many instead chose death.

the least spiritual societies in pre-columbian America would probably have had to have been the great plains tribes, such as comanche or sioux, but just because they were absent in religion did not mean that they were not crazy motherfuckers in their own right, and besides they were nowhere near as technologically advanced as, say, the inca empire. they would have nothing to offer the europeans.

so again, i would say unless there was a strange absence of religion in their culture, then an incan puppet state might have been possible, but that's not something that could be easily quantified or controlled.

shit. IF there was a strange absence*

fuckin double negatives.

no, I meant he was responding to the incatard.
I'm not him.

Hey hey, I didn't want to post in this thread until you made me do it. Chill, do you really think I'm everywhere?

>he was responding to the incatard.
No he wasn't, he was responding to me, and hate that development guy, too. I'm just tired of seeing that "I'm not really a Solutreanfag, but here's all this stuff I think indicates a prehistoric genocide happened in North America" idiot paste the exact same shit in every thread.

He's a troll who wants to bait incatard and other pol kids. It's obvious.