Muscle or technique?

OP here.
this is very interesting.

do y'all got any video?

Off the top of my head I'd say watch the video of Hafthor Björnsson having a spar with Conor Mcgregor, it shows an example of the whole "if they can get a hold of them" deal, though they were just fucking around, and even though Thor said in an interview he wasn't really trying, he definitely tried to hit him with a few punches.

You can see how tired (and hot from the red skin) thor gets quite quickly, and even when he does get a hold of him he can still slip out because thor has no idea how to hold him in place properly and or isnt quick enough to transition into a position where he can do any real damage to mcgregor (headlock to standing guillotine for example).

youtube.com/watch?v=Aaehn1aY8Ig

This is a HUGE size different that comes down to more than just muscle though, as there's also a huge height difference and Thor has thicker bones, so it definitely is possible he could win if they both went all out.

That being said, we've seen before in the fight between Emmanuel Yarborough and Tasuo Nakano that just having a lot of weight (albeit a lot of fat rather than mostly muscle) wont win you a fight if you just try to lay on your opponent if they have any ground game at all, which is generally the argument as to why Thor would win in a real fight whenever it is discussed.

youtube.com/watch?v=0VcEf-gugpg

Tatsuo* Nakano, my bad.

Some good points here.

Some good training in grappling can really help avoid being ragdolled, even if you are considerably smaller.

Cain v Lesnar is a good example. Cain weighs in at a pudgy 239, no cut needed. Brock obviously cuts 20-25 lbs of water to make the 265 limit, and walks into the cage around 285 mostly lean.

That's a raw 46 lb size advantage, and probably a 65-75 lb lean mass advantage.

Cain's agility and endurance enabled him to spring up from any of Brock's takedown attempts, and send him flying across the cage with strikes.

Cain has a good wrestling background, but Brock's is a league above. And strength/size give a far greater advantage to wrestling/clinch than striking. But it simply wasn't enough.

The person who trains to fight wins fights. The person who trains to lift heavy weights lifts the heaviest weights.

Humans specialize, that's what we do. And we get fantastic at it. Thinking you'll beat people that train nothing but combat for years when you've traind nothing but strength for years is vain and retarded.

Pic related is what being 5x World's Strongest Man with a 915 dead and 640 lb bench gets you. You literally pass out from exhaustion after one round with a fat washed up Tim Sylvia. Mariusz would go on to see greater success after intentionally losing large amounts of muscle mass to increase his stamina.

With no training for either person, I'd say the stronger guy would beat the faster/nimble one. Most untrained folks just clinch and wrestle, in which case greater muscle mass would probably allow you to exhaust and throw around a weaker opponent.

idk if i'd call brock's wrestling a league above cain's. he was a d1 champion, but brock has always used his size to his advantage. iirc the guy he wrestled for the d1 title was like 30-40 lbs lighter like cain. and when you apply wrestling to an mma sense it obviously becomes different. wrestling ends when ground grappling begins, and cain had years of that kind of wrestling experience as opposed to brocks 1-2.

So people that are under the 265 limit aren't cutting any weight right? Does brock always cut that much water weight?

Randy weighed in at 220 for HW. Brock had a fucking 65 lb advantage on him? How is that even fair? That's like 4 weight classes.

He boasted about beating up an old man 65 lbs lighter than him while juiced to the gills?

No wonder fucking /asp/ies love him.

I'm not but

ufc.com/discover/sport/weight-classes

Heavyweight is the most varied weight class by a pretty big margin, could just be that Cain Velasquez prefers to fight at that weight because he has better mobility (see gif in linked post for mobility example).

Brock Lesnar is a pretty terrible sport personality, he roids like fuck and the UFC doesn't even do anything about it because he makes them so much money, everybody knows it, but nobody can do anything about it. The UFC isn't exactly known for being fair, but Velasquez chooses to fight at that weight class instead of cutting for light heavyweight, and sometimes he gets REK for it.

All weight classes cut weight.

Well, I'd say in the modern era, good wrestlers translate their skills very well to the ground game. Lots of former D1 wrestlers are filling the top tens, and dominating the ground game by supplementing with BJJ training. Pure BJJ by itself is pretty much gone.

Also, Brock landed two takedowns, which took Cain around 4 seconds and 0.5 seconds to get up from respectively. There was no ground game in that fight.

But yea I was exaggerating a bit about the difference in their wrestling pedigrees. Still shows a good deal about effectively combating a larger/stronger opponent ragdolling you with technique and agility tho.

But Heavyweights that walk around under the 265 limit do not cut weight.

BRUCE LEE IS THE GREATEST

THE GREATEST!!!!!!!!

punching is a snapping sequence not a pushing one

It really depends on the type of punch and the fighting style, if you want to win a fight through attrition, then a lot of jabs and some light crosses are definitely snapping motions, however, if you push the cross in a 1-1-2 combination, the first two jabs will disorientate the opponent, the third will knock out or break a bone in the face, provided you hit with the first two knuckles.

There's also more to fighting than just throwing punches, for example if you've ever trained Muay Thai or kickboxing you'll know that throwing a teep (front kick that really just allows you to gauge your opponent's weight or set up for a roundhouse) is more of a pushing motion when used for gauging their weight/strength of their stance.

Besides the point, fast twitch muscle fibres specifically in the bicep allow for the snapping motion anyway, so if you train correctly those muscles can help you win the fight.

I should mention that I think throwing a snapping punch rather than following through with a punch is better in a situation against someone who's mobile. If they're just big through hypertrophy, however, I would be more inclined to push some more when hitting the jaw because they aren't likely to be able to capitalise on the mistake of leaving my arm out too long, and being fatigued before them isn't likely even though I'm expending too much energy on pushing.

>Also that feeling when you land a fucking nice elbow with all of your weight behind it and cut open their face

FLY AWAY BRUCE
FLY AWAY

Not sure why a picture of an actor is relevant to the topic.

youtube.com/watch?v=x_TkJcMZm6s

Mostly true.

Strength and size can lend power to certain strikes, typically the ones with push motions (a teep kick), and aid in the clinch from which you can throw strikes more. But generally, it's really counter-intuitive to train strength purely for striking. No striking coach worth his salt incorporates any kind of heavy lifting/strength training for the purpose of striking.

Fuck, if you build alot of push muscles and never train striking, you might throw -weaker- punches than you did before, because you've never trained with that extra mass.

Gorgeous

Im sorry but he was definitely not trying to hurt mcgregor at all and clearly they were just having fun... thats not a real fair comparison. Earlier ufc is a better example of where technique > muscle.

But some do, that's my point.

135? Royce has been 175 lbs for decades.

>size = strength
lardo would get destroyed. one hit to his jaw, he would be tko. you cant train to take a punch when you spend all day putting things in your butt

They cut fat during camp months out. They don't drop 20-30 lbs of water weight in the week before weigh-in to get under the limit, then rehydrate in 24 hrs and come in the cage 20lbs heavier.

I agree, it was obviously just them fooling around. There are plenty of other examples out there of technique/training beating size/strength. If the Mountain got a solid grip on McGregor, that'd be the end of it.

Although, I wouldn't be surprised if McGregor could dodge/avoid him long enough to tire him out. If you think about it, it's really pretty probable. And 400lbs of muscle gasses pretty fast.

i feel like this is a decent arguement youtube.com/watch?v=Gh5muG9zJ8c

>that fucking scream

It really depends on the weight difference. I mean, if their around the same weight, and one is muscle and the other is a bit chubby but has good technique he could win. But if some guy tryed to go up against say, the mountain, they'd be totally fucked.

Oh lord, I needed that. Thank you, user.

>I wouldn't be surprised if McGregor could dodge/avoid him long enough to tire him out.
Then what? It's not like McLeprecaun can reach his head to do any damage. Have you even been punched by a fourth grader? That's the power difference we're talking.

HOLY

Anderson Silva is pretty unremarkable when wearing plain clothes. Lotta mma guys are built but not huge. Though that's for mma with rules. Maybe you want a shit load of muscle in real life to add more protection for knife attacks or something.

go to bjj class and challenge 100 lbs purple belt girls m8

you'd be surprised.

Why did the CIA kill him?

I fell for the underestimation trap and had some bitch smother the life out of me with her tits. I probably only had 60lbs on her though but she just got me in a hold I couldn't figure out and I had to tap. I looked as dumb as I felt. My only excuse was that it was sparring

>Then What
See Mariusz Pudzwiasdoiajdawe literally collapse from exhaustion after 1 round here. Conor could just step on his head. He was just pure lean muscle with a 915lb deadlift. He wised up and stropped dropping completely functional muscle to improve his stamina, and has performed considerably better since doing so.

>Have you even been punched by a fourth grader? That's the power difference we're talking.

You literally know nothing about striking. The most consistent knockout artists are often serious DYELs when compared to their more muscular grappler counterparts. KO's are about timing, speed, and angles.

None of that even matters, cause when you gas you gas. When a mountain of muscle is spent, there is no second wind that lets you lift a gigantic arm without your heart exploding.

Why would you cut to 220 when your weight class is up to 265??

220 was lean bulk weight

I believe you are thinking of rickson gracie

If he got incredibly lucky and managed to avoid Bjornsson long enough for him to gas, Conor could do literally anything he wanted. The Mountain doesn't just get exhausted at that point, he gets exhausted -and- any movement he attempts is moving 400lbs of muscle. He has a superhuman level of lean mass that requires more blood pumping to it than any mortal heart can sustain for long.

Again, how is he knocking out anyone when he can't hit above the opponent's nipple?

He's probably thinking of standard fitness weight cuts, losing fat. Probably doesn't know about cutting water weight. Which yeah, there's no point in doing if you're already under the limit. If you weigh-in 220, you're walking in the cage 220.

Pic related, 5'9" and 155 on weigh-in day.

Technique is basically learning to use 100% of your muscles.

When that nipple is on the ground after the big man collapses. Actually wait that's not even necessary. 5'8" punching out 6'8"?

How about 5'10" punching out 7'.

bjj class means bjj rules
without bjj rules she wont ever be able close enough for a takedown
not even mentioning that bjj doesnt focus on takedowns

>armchair fight theory BTFO by actual documented examples

Not that it's gonna stop the arguing.

Fucking hell Veeky Forums, just train what you want to train. Train for endurance if you want endurance, power if you want power, fighting if you want fighting.

Don't pick one specialty and pretend it just makes you better at everything. Fucking fox and the grapes.

Kek. Shoulda just posted the gif on its own.

>Documented examples given to compliment arguments
>BTFO by actual documented examples

He learned.

I guess I can contribute as well

youtube.com/watch?t=246&v=-Cr9UHqwqIE

A gun.

I'm surprised he has the flexibility to raise his leg that high desu.

Kek

>Teleports behind you

Don't know why but this made me kek

I NEED THESE NOW

Almost certainly technique. You'd have to have a LOT more muscle, not just a little more, to overcome it.

Literally a perfect V-taper.

I would have said muscle (to a degree, if you can't move, you can't fight obviously). That was until I met this dude.

I'm reasonably fit and have some training in BJJ, Judo and Tae-Kwon-Do. There was this old dude in Judo, black belt, total skelly. Had been doing yoga his whole life. So I was thinking 'hey is 30 years older and at least 50 lbs lighter, what can go wrong'. He handed me my ass with ease both on the ground and standing. It wasn't luck, he did it for solid 20 min. I was so surprised, I almost shat my pants, when he first threw me.

Mobility, technique, experience and body awareness, trumps muscle every time. It's harder to achieve though. Also doesn't make you less of a prick. He refused to teach me anything though asked nicely. He just enjoyed kicking my ass.

There's very good reason for weight classes.

Once you pass basic skills size and fitness does more than technique

Even Floyd Mayweather wouldn't stand a chance against an average pro-heavyweight, unless he got really lucky and managed to not get hit and win on points.

Some guy who is 6'2"+ and 240 is going to jab harder than a flyweight can punch period.

Skill is important so far as knowing the fundamentals and when people are roughly matched physically.

>This Thread again

youtube.com/watch?v=voCYLn19mHA
youtube.com/watch?v=kjFp1R5klo4

Above a certain size, it comes down to technique. Obviously a 300 lbs linebacker is going to crunch a 100 lbs scrawny faggot who takes martial arts, even if the 100 lbs guy is a "master." However, after you get to about ~180 lbs with low body fat, you have the muscle to make every strike you launch hurtful as long as it lands where you want it to land. A 180 lbs martial arts master is dangerous to anyone, regardless of size. There isn't anyone in the world, not even a 400 lbs. 8 plate-squatter, who can take a perfectly placed kick to the head from someone who is sufficiently big enough.

The hypothetical really comes down to the specifics, but I would say something like a 175 lbs. martial arts master versus a 350 lbs. linebacker is about 60/40 odds in the martial artist's favor.

Even while rehearsed they look like they cant fight

Is this even attractive to women? I'm guessing not. All of the hot celebs are scrawny twinkboys who have barely visible abs and a nice face

Would doing martial arts be a good training exercise to increase test? Because the movements are all explosive. So theoretically, as long as I dont get too tired, I would contribute to test, wouldnt I?

Women are retarded, and don't think muscle isn't a major factor in what they consider attractive. You can be dyle fuckboy but as long as you got a pretty face you can fuck any girl want.

Heem Sleep

technique almost always wins unless you are 100 pounds heavier , even then if your opponent is a pro at it ,you will still most likely get rekt

face is way more important to females than it is to men for some reason

a guy can have a literally 10/10 body but if he has an average face, many women would reject him

You realize short stature is actually an advantage right, you fucking retard? I know you're a motherfucking nerd so I'll put it in terms you understand; why was Lefty so overpowered in Goldeneye multiplayer? Because his body is small and he's a smaller target.

Why do you think ALL of the most dangerous dog fighting breeds are short, squat, and exaggeratedly muscular? Being low to the ground is a good thing. Why would you want to be a giant fucking target? As long as the manlet can pack on enough muscle (a feat he will have an easy time doing, because of his manlet status), he is dangerous to anyone taller than him.

>actor vs bodybuilding freak on the verge of passing out
Though call. Would put my bet on Bruce though, since even Chuck Norris said Lee's skills were real.

Ideas like this is why people mock manlets dude. There are weight classes for a reason. Being tall, having a lot of mass is pretty much always better for a fight.

The only place for manlets to be equal is in the modern battlefield with guns. Even then, they probably wouldnt send them into CQC inside buildings where they may need to perform hand to hand combat.

Short stature is not an advantage lmfao, you just made a comparison between real life hand to hand combat and a video game where you shoot people. There's a reason girls find taller guys more attractive, it's because they're more physically imposing and more likely to be able to defend them/their offspring, that's just nature.

And yes, I know height isn't everything, but being short is not an advantage unless you're like "YEAH BUT A 7 FOOT LANKLET AGAINST 300LBS LEAN MASS 5'10 MASTER" like yeah, obviously it's possible that short people can have advantages over tall people, but height itself is an advantage.

>he believe that muscle was everything
lel
do people really believe that shit?

>Manlet detected

as a manlet who have practiced boxing and judo i can't tell you that in boxing being short is a huge disadventage (reach)..
in judo it's an huge adventatage (it's easy to get of hold and easier to maintain an hold on a taller dude)

Manlets dont make it into combat because they cant reach the chinup bar for the physical test and score 0

Well, you can be short with huge reach, depending on your ape index which comes primarily down to genetics, however the issue with boxing is that punching upwards makes you lose a lot of power in addition to most likely having shorter reach.

Also having trained BJJ, i'd say that i've seen being tall as an advantage there as well, as your longer limbs allow you to move around faster and it's easier for you to get a grip when facing resistance because you don't have to reach as far.

The reason being short helps you in grappling is because of your low center of mass, which allows you to stay on balance easier, but that's mostly just grappling in standup, and on the floor at least in my personal experience i've seen height as an advantage there too.

Alternatively, having trained Muay Thai I've also seen height be useful for standup grappling, as it's much harder to hold a clinch against someone with a few inches of height on you, as the further your arms are from your body, the more force you have to exert in order to hold them there, and lifting them upwards to reach a clinch is an example of that.

TL;DR depends on the form, but Judo does not allow for any striking at all except when you're doing your demonstrations and you throw slow punches to display the different moves, and in a situation without strict no striking rules, being tall is always an advantage in itself, without accounting for other physical traits.

i basicaly agree exept for the floor grapplingg being short allow you to move around for geting of an hold cf the basic bridge stuff (don't know the name in english) wrapping your legs around your oppenement waist is easier (cause the hold being shoulder against shoulder the waist is "lower" for a tall dude )

I dont even get it why manlets have such a hard time with this fact. Society is fucking shit, its not like they are living in a nordic warrior society where everyone is fit and hard working.

70% and above of all people are overweight and/or obese. For a manlet who merely lifts weights, he already stands a fair chance against so many people even taller than him, who dont work out, who have shitty office jobs and have developed little muscle.

Sure, they may encounter the occasional other fit dude. But those things dont happen often. They still can get women most of the time.

So what is it that triggers their inferiority so much? In the us they can just get a gun and feel tough.

srsly, why so insecure manlets.

>never train striking, you might throw -weaker- punches than you did before, because you've never trained with that extra mass

How do I train striking?

i am not insecure i just like judo and sharing experience with an other practitioner is interesting imao

>le manlets can keel all tall fags!
>not insecure

kek

The thing is, if you're in someone's guard and they're trying to get you in a triangle, if you push yourself up from the floor with your arms and your arms are significantly longer then you'll be further from the ground.
From there, it's far harder for a short person to wrap their legs around you to actually secure the choke because it requires the opponent to be closer to your body.

That's just one example, another would be a kimura grip into a basic shoulder hold from side mount, having longer arms allows you to generate more leverage and again, makes it easier to get the grip in the first place.

Strike
That isn't what he said at all, stop strawmanning.

>Muscled dudes take the dominant position quickly.
>Few minutes later they can barely move.

Shit, I knew lean = endurance was kind of a myth, but does massive muscle really cause you to exhaust this quickly in a fight?

I have neither of both. But if It were a fight between a super light weight champion UFC fighter vs a huge Mr Olympia I would out my money on the UFC fighter.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Look at Bob Sapp and tell me all you need to know is the basics if you have size. He was a big motherfucker and one hell of an athlete but a shit fighter.

whoever gets the first good punch.

How can people be this oblivious

Muscle needs oxygen and energy

If you have more muscle you need more oxygen. If you need more oxygen your heart beats faster. You use more energy.

Ideally you would want both. But technique is more important. You want to be at a natural weight for your height as well. If your 5'8 bulking up to 200 lbs is going to be counterproductive. of course there are exceptions like but thats a general rule of thumb.

a combination of plenty of both
where is this mindset that people are getting where you can only focus on one thing at a time? it's like all these dumbasses that say you can't do cardio while lifting. Even bruce lee in your fucking picture was an advocate of the mindset of mixing all types of training. He was a boxer, gung fu expert, he lifted, everything. Stop being such a pussy and become a master of everything.