Versailles treaty was harsh and unfai-

>Survival vs. revenge and greed.
Then why did Germany occupy majority Polish land?

Dont bring morality into this, Angl0. Britain has been at war with almost every country on this planet and the US have been at war for over 90% of the time of their existence.
>wha wha Germany does the same

>Polish lands
no such thing at that point.

So you're saying that land with Polish majority didn't exist and Germany wasn't occupying it?

Have you seen a map of 1914?

Have you?

indeed. The term Reich as in Deutsches Reich does not denote a nation state but a realm. There were Polish residents but they didn't have their own country. And it wasn't much of a problem either since cities like Lodz were multicultural, Polish, Russian, German, Jewish

Why were they persecuted for being Polish then?

citation please. We're talking WW1 not WW2

>Have you seen a map of 1914?
Here is German map of ethnicities based on German census of 1910.
It clearly shows that Poles formed majority on these territories.

Prior to WW1, Prussians were perescuting Poles. Kulturkampf was also fighting against Polish Catholic Churches.

>prussia takes polish lands that poland held for millennia
>proceed to oppress poles, take away their land, tax them, deny them education, kick some out just because and outright kill them
>hundred years of trying to extinguish all that's polish
>Friedrich boasts about how wealthy and orderly poland was to his brother while lies to german aristocracy so he doesnt have to share. Those letters still exists. He wrote how he will completely remove poles.
>Bismark openly in all european courts call poles dogs and wolfes and vermin to be slaughtered
>despite all that at the end of ww1 those lands are still overwhelmingly polish. Becasue of all that shit poles despise germans and hold dearly on polish language for all those years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_deportations
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanisation_of_Poles_during_the_Partitions
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Partition_of_Poland

Doesn't sound like:
>The term Reich as in Deutsches Reich does not denote a nation state but a realm. There were Polish residents but they didn't have their own country. And it wasn't much of a problem either since cities like Lodz were multicultural, Polish, Russian, German, Jewish
To me.

No wonder there were so many uprisings. Even in germanised SIlesia.

>citation please. We're talking WW1
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Border_Strip

The term "Polish Border Strip" (German: Polnischer Grenzstreifen; Polish: polski pas graniczny) or "Polish Frontier Strip" refers to those territories which the German Empire wanted to annex from Congress Poland after World War I. It appeared in plans proposed by German officials as a territory to be ceded by the Kingdom of Poland to the German Empire after an expected German and Central Powers victory. German planners also envisioned forced expulsion and resettlement of the Polish and Jewish population which would be replaced by German colonists.[1][2][3] The proposed area of the Border Strip comprised up to 30,000 km2 (approximately the size of Belgium), and up to 3 million people were to be removed by the German Empire to make room for Germans.[3] The strip was also intended to separate the Polish inhabitants of Prussian-held Greater Poland from those in Congress Poland.

In July 1917 the German supreme command under General Ludendorff, as part of the debate and planning regarding the cession of the "border strip" to Germany, specified its own designs in a memorandum.[1] It proposed annexing a greatly enlarged "border strip" of 20,000 square kilometres, and removing the pre-existing Polish and Jewish population (numbering between 2,000,000 and 3,000,000[3]) from a territory of 8,000 square kilometres and settling it with ethnic Germans.[1][2][5] Poles living in Prussia, especially in the province of Posen, were to be "encouraged" by unspecified means to move into the German-ruled Kingdom of Poland.[3]

The German minority living in Congress Poland, which had earlier suggested the annexation of all territory up to Łódź in a letter to the German government, also supported such proposals.[6] The German government developed and agreed to these plans in March 1918, and in April gained support in the Prussian House of Lords; the plans for this were debated and developed across a wide spectrum of political parties and interested groups such as political scientists, industrialists, and nationalist organisations like the Pan-German League.[3] Parts of the plans were adopted by Nazis after the war, and implemented in the genocidal Generalplan Ost.[3]

Still, why release a nation while in the middle of the greatest war mankind has seen?

>half an hour
>no reply
Well done fellow user

sorry, didn't directly reply to Polish victim complex - the post. Here it is:

>quoting wikipedia like (((it))) means anything

My sides

whoops.

>Polish victim complex
Do you really need more though ?
Not an argument. Germans were the bad guys here.

and in the end Poland is on the map, got a 3rd of Germany and is still complaining. Why give them a country in the middle of WW1?

>Why give them a country in the middle of WW1?

To get the Polish manpower on their side against Russia.

Doesn't sound like a good idea to arm them. The Poles with German citizenship already served anyway.

But they didn't have German citizenship. They didn't have the time and spare resources to build/integrate their own administrative structures on the territories taken from Russia and crush any resistance in the local population, so in the short term if they wanted to tap into that population they had to work within the existing power structures and promise them stuff to get their buy-in.

There's a reason the Regency Council created by the Germany put in charge of the puppet Kingdom of Poland was composed of the Mayor of Warsaw, the Archbishop of Warsaw, and a major politician who formerly led the Polish faction in the Russian parliament.

The Reich had 3 million German citizens speaking Polish as their mother tongue

Yes, but the Regency Kingdom of Poland created by Germany was composed of lands taken from the Russian Empire. There were 10 million people there and Germans needed the manpower.

Germany didn't 'release' any territories they held before WW1 into their new puppet state.

*So basically one of the scenarios of what could have happened after a Central Powers victory would be Germany shaving off whatever territories they wanted off the puppet, possibly expelling ("repatriating", I'm sure it would have a good propaganda tone) their own Polish minority (prom the Posen area and the like) to the rump state that remained, and then the remaining "Kingdom of Poland" being either integrated on a federal basis into Austria-Hungary or the German Empire, or possibly kept as a semi-independent buffer state against the emerging Soviet Union.

Why don't you make a thread for Polish history kolega?

I don't know that much, that's all basic stuff.

t. Austrian

based Austria. the only part of partition that didn't do horrible shit to the polacks.

The funny thing about the Polish scenario was that they had various factions arguing for allying with one of the partitioning powers in trying to unite Polish lands and gain autonomy within the scope of those larger empires. After all, the only alternative seemed to be fighting all alone against all three. The partitioning powers were often able to use that to gain support from their local Poles (ostensibly against the other two partitioners).

Then to the surprise of everyone including the Poles the Great War ended with all three of the partitioning powers defeated, even though they were on different sides. Honestly it was a better result for them than they could have hoped for, most of Europe laments WW1 but for Poland it ended up being Christmas (even though a lot of nasty fighting happened in their lands).

In fact you could look at WW2 through similar lens. Yes, it was horrific for the Poles. But it also ended with them getting some clay (in exchange for losing other clay) and solved a major problem they've had with multiethnic areas - they became a highly ethnically homogenous country for the first time in centuries.

Partially true, I won't argue.

Losing your elites and getting thrown under Communism was a big blow though, something you don't recover from as seen now. Poland is a shithole.

do you understand how fucking massive russia is compared to germany? this is nothing compared to versailles

Yeah I agree.
We should thank Stalin for ethnostate and western border.

>best lands
>most fertile
>most populated
>most industry
Its like Germany losing whole Silesia and Rhineland.

>do you understand how fucking massive russia is compared to germany?
do you not understand that 3/4 of Russia are fucking unfit for life and they had to cede huge part of the 1/4 that is?

...

>Russia had all of that huge inhabited frozen wasteland, they shouldn't complain about losing what little fertile land they had!

>Losing 90% of your coal mines and 25% of your population isn't a big deal

Even worse, Russia would be losing basically all of its western ports.

That's 1/3 of the Russian population and around 25% of the industry. Germany lost 11% of population.

Brainlet

>Yes, but the Regency Kingdom of Poland created by Germany
Regency Kingdom was never created.
Germans toyed with the idea but the actual state was never formed.

>*So basically one of the scenarios of what could have happened after a Central Powers victory would be Germany shaving off whatever territories they wanted off the puppet, possibly expelling ("repatriating", I'm sure it would have a good propaganda tone) their own Polish minorit

Which would make these 3 million Poles good recruits for any power wanting to challenge Germany.
Poles under CP victory scenariou would now have only one enemy:Germany.
If Russia would turn Panslavic Fascist it could easily recruit them.
Likewise UK or France.
When the next war would start, Germany would be dealing with uprising in Poland, probably serious unrest/strikes in Bohemia and in Ukraine.

''Fun'' fact:Germans also wanted to ethnically cleanse Lithuanians although they were their allies in theory.

>based Austria. the only part of partition that didn't do horrible shit to the polacks.
It did many horrible things, it supported slaughter of Polish nobles in Galicia for example.
In early 20th century they also started supporting Ukrainian nationalists hoping they would counter-balance Poles.

>The funny thing about the Polish scenario was that they had various factions arguing for allying with one of the partitioning powers in trying to unite Polish lands and gain autonomy within the scope of those larger empires. After all, the only alternative seemed to be fighting all alone against all three

One thing that is often forgotten in Poland, is that by WW1 Russia was becoming quite succesfull at turning Poles to its side.
This was in part due the fact that Germans went full racism on Poles and made no illusions that their ultimate goal is settling Polish territories.
Also Russian authorities believed Poland to be a burden and thought some autonomy would ease the control over it.

>Losing your elites and getting thrown under Communism was a big blow though, something you don't recover from as seen now. Poland is a shithole.

Poland is getting better and now is safer to live in than UK or France(even just looking at crime statistics).
We are getting to level of Portugal within 5 years or so.

Best scenario in WW1 for Poland is lack of Russian Empire's collapse and Polish state restored from three partitions plus Silesia under Russian appointed monarch(in constitutional monarchy) connected by military and economic union with Russian Empire.
This would save us from Germans and allow to become the best developed part of Eastern Europe

Maybe even get few articles from deal. And vowels.

>One thing that is often forgotten in Poland, is that by WW1 Russia was becoming quite succesfull at turning Poles to its side.

Not as successful as Austria-Hungary.

Really by the time of WW1 it was just the Germans who were actively at odds with their Polish minority.

>We are getting to level of Portugal within 5 years or so.
But Portugal is a shithole.
No jobs, no industry. n People running for work in whole Europe, heck they even go to Brazil or Angola.
Whole PIGS countries lost anything of worth with UE and all thanks to Euro and 'subsidies'.

Conservatives were with AH.
Nationalist with Russia.
Everyone would gladly look Germany burn.

>Regency Kingdom was never created.
>Germans toyed with the idea but the actual state was never formed.

It was formally created (or at least had a formally formed government), was recognized at least by Germany and Austria-Hungary, printed its own currency, had a degree of control over the civil administration etc.

It was a puppet state under occupation though and most of the formal powers of the government existed only on paper as they were suspended until after the occupation.

>le parentheses (((meme)))
>Germany dindu nuffin
Who could be behind these posts?

>was recognized at least by Germany and Austria-Hungary
Nope, German government openly refused to reckognize it.

b-but muh Kulturkampf

muh Deutscher Ostmarkenverein

>Russians were aggressors
This is your brain on G*rms.

>Sit down for peace talks
>Blather away about "peace without annexations"
>Germans say that they are going to create Polish, Lithuanian, and courlander states
>Reject this proposal, hoping to buy time for the Western powers to join
>Trotsky shows up and blathers away about "neither peace, not war"
>Ukrainian revolutionaries sign a separate peace with the Germs for food
>Russians delay delay delay
>Germans finally give up, end the ceasefire and advance
>Now the Russians are willing to accept the original proposal
>Except Austrians are in Kiev and German troops are advancing on petrograd
>Forced to sign a worse treat than originally offered

They did it to themselves

Source?

What about the 12 September 1917 patent?

>dude the Russians only kobilized for fun XD

Nothing fun about mobilizing to defend Serbia from grabby austrian hands.

Right, that's why they mobilized on Germany's border too and were directly able to launch an invasion into East Prussia.

Also the Balkan conflict was none of Russia's business. Serbia supported terrorists that murdered Austrians archduke and had to pay the price.

Explain the Russians mobilizing then, if not to invade Germany and Austria.

part of stalins plan to prepare for a german invasion 6 years later. After the ribbentrop act ended

>WW1
>Stalin
Wut

Nicholas II originally ordered mobilization only along the Austrian border, but then his generals explained to him that such a thing was logistically impossible

>>prussia takes polish lands that poland held for millennia
>milennia

>>proceed to oppress poles

Depends, for commoners, the Prussian rule of law, albeit authoritarian, was probably less oppressive than the arbitrary and anarchic rule of some nobleman or magante

>take away their land

No, land was bought by the Prussian Settlement Commission, in most cases from German large land owners

>tax them

oh no, the evil Prussians didn't establish ancap utopia

>deny them education

Wrong, schools were established and literacy increased not only compared to the abysmal previous levels but was also higher than in the Russian and Austrian partition. It is true that after 1871, education opportunities in the Polish language were very limited, but it was still possible to acquire an education in the German language.

>kick some out just because

Prussia kicked out Poles (and Jews) who were not Prussian/German citizens but Austrian and Russian ones, which is perfectly legal.

>>Friedrich boasts about how wealthy and orderly poland was to his brother while lies to german aristocracy so he doesnt have to share.

Nonsense, Poland was considered a failed state not only by Frederick but most people in Europe. Here's what Frederick actually said: "It is a very good and advantageous acquisition, both from a financial and a political point of view. In order to excite less jealousy I tell everyone that on my travels I have seen just sand, pine trees, heath land and Jews. Despite that there is a lot of work to be done; there is no order, and no planning and the towns are in a lamentable condition." - He thought the land as such was valuable, but in a bad state.

>that's why they mobilized on Germany's border too and were directly able to launch an invasion into East Prussia.
>that's why they mobilized of on a border of austrian ally who was wholeheartedly supporting invasion of Serbia
Wow.

>Balkan conflict was none of Russia's business
>Russia should have just stood by an let a close friendly nation to be murdered.

Germany should have just stood by and let austrians get whooped by Russia by the same logic.

>Serbia supported terrorists
Wrong.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Poland_uprising_(1848)

While the Kingdom of Prussia already possessed a large Polish population in Upper Silesia, it gained additional Polish citizens during the partitions of Poland. From the beginnings of Prussian rule, Poles were subject to a series of measures aimed against them and their culture; the Polish language was replaced by German as the official language,[5] and most administration was made German as well; the Prussian ruler Frederick the Great despised Poles and hoped to replace them with Germans. Poles were portrayed as 'backward Slavs' by Prussian officials who wanted to spread German language and culture.[5] The land of Polish nobility was confiscated and given to German nobles.[5] Frederick the Great settled around 300,000 colonists in the Eastern provinces of Prussia and aimed at a removal of the Polish nobility by increasing the German population and trying to reduce Polish owned land.[6] [7] Another colonization attempt aimed at Germanization was pursued by Prussia after 1832,[8] and while Poles constituted 73% of population in 1815, they were reduced to 60% in 1848, at the same time the German presence grew from 25% to 30%.[9] The Poles were freed from Prussians with the arrival of Napoleon, and started a successful uprising against the Prussian forces in 1806.

>>Serbia supported terrorists
>Wrong.

Except not. There's literally proof that the Black Hand worked for the Serbian government,

That's bullshit, where is this "proof"? Because the Black Hand hated Pasic and the Serbian government, and were in turn opposed by them. They even established a group called the White Hand to counter-act the Black Hand. At most the Black Hand had links with dissident elements within the Serbian military bureaucracy who were at odds with the sitting civilian government

In 1819 the gradual elimination of Polish language in schools began, with German being introduced in its place.[1] This procedure was briefly stopped in 1822 but restarted in 1824.

In 1825 August Jacob, a politician hostile to Poles, gained power over newly created Provincial Educational Collegium in Poznan.[1] Across the Polish territories Polish teachers were being removed from work, German educational programs were being introduced, and primary schooling was being replaced by German one that aimed at creation of loyal Prussian citizens.[1] Already in 1816 the Polish gymnasium in Bydgoszcz was turned into a German school and Polish language removed from classes.

In 1825 the Teacher’s Seminary in Bydgoszcz was Germanized as well[1] While in 1824 a Provincial Parliament was invoked in Greater Poland, the representation was based on wealth census, meaning that the end result gave most of the power to German minority in the area.[1] Even when Poles managed to issue calls asking for enforcing of the guarantees formulated in treaties of Congress of Vienna and proclamations of Prussian King in 1815 they were rejected by Prussia.[1] Thus neither the attempt to create Polish University in Poznań or Polish Society of Friends of Agriculture, Industry and Education were accepted by authorities.[1] Nevertheless, Poles continued to ask for Polish representation in administration of the area, representing the separate character of the Duchy, keeping the Polish character of schools.[1]

>work for serbian government
>get exterminated by serbian government

Really makes me think.

They were literally in contact with the Serb government, and the Serbian government's refusal for Austria to investigate is only further proof of that

>that Reddit spacing

The administrator of the region became Eduard Heinrich Flotwell, a self-declared enemy of Poles, who openly called for Germanization and superiority of German culture over Polish people. Supported by Karl Grolman, a Prussian general, a program was presented that envisioned removing Poles from all offices, courts, judiciary system, and local administration, controlling the clergy, and making peasants loyal through enforced military service. Schools were to be Germanized as well.[1] Those plans were supported by such prominent public figures such as Clauswitz, Gneisenau, Theodor von Schon, and Wilhelm von Humbold.[1] By 1830 the right to use Polish in courts and institutions was no longer respected.[5] While the Poles constituted the majority of population in the area, they held only 4 out of 21 official posts of higher level.[5] From 1832 they could no longer hold higher posts at the local administrative level(Landrat).[5] At the same time the Prussian government and Prussian King pursued Germanization of administration and judicial system, while local officials enforced Germanization of educational system and tried to eradicate the economic position of Polish nobility.[5] In Bydgoszcz the mayors were all Germans. In Poznań, out of 700 officials, only 30 were Poles. Flotwell also initiated programs of German colonization and tried to reduce Polish landownership in favor of Germans.[1] In the time period of 1832-1842 the number of Polish holdings was reduced from 1020 to 950 and the German ones increased from 280 to 400.[1

>circumstantial evidence

How about some actual proof.

Dude reddit spacing lmao

How about you find an actual counterargument?

>They were literally in contact with the Serb government
Prove it. Provide a source. Because actually the Serbian government hated them, had ordered their arrest, and tried to warn the Austro-Hungarians that a plot was afoot but were ignored.

>the Serbian government's refusal for Austria to investigate is only further proof of that
It proves nothing other than Serbia wasn't willing to give up its sovereignty and become an Austrian puppet state. They agreed to all Austria-Hungary's demands short of that, including suppressing all anti-Habsburg publications, arresting people the Austrians wanted arrested, dissolving organisations the Austrians didn't like, etc...

Are you able to actually reply to some points instead of spamming wikipedia paragraphs like a bot?

Address a specific point and I'll respond. I'm not gonna answer the vaguely related ramblings of Polish wiki warriors

Argument to what, you haven't provided anything to argue about.

>citation please. We're talking WW1 not WW2
kek
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Kalisz
>The Polish press in all territories of Partitions reported extensively on the event, some calling it "monstrous madness, that is unbelievable".[1] The damage in Kalisz constituted 29,5% of the losses in the entire Congress Poland during World War I. The destruction has been compared to the massacre of Louvain, where a city was destroyed in similar manner by the Germans.[1] Before the war Kalisz had 65,000 citizens; after the war, there were only 5,000 left.[1]

persecution mate, not acts of war.

>war crimes aren't persecution

>The damage in Kalisz constituted 29,5% of the losses in the entire Congress Poland during World War I.

Very unlikely, considering the heavy fighting in Poland and scorched earth tactics used by the Russians on retreat.

Serbian job security hasn't been the same since Mahmud II.

At least we don't suck muslim cock for a living, Hans.

Many Polish kurwas employed in Germany's brothels probably do

>polen white, polen stronk, polen developed
You guys really are the indians of the EU

Ewiges Popoweh

>Very unlikely, considering the heavy fighting in Poland and scorched earth tactics used by the Russians on retreat.
True, as much bigger cities like Lublin were also leveled.

The Serbs refusing an Austrian inquiry on their territory.