How did a bunch of Viking adventurers ended up ruling over an entire branch of east slavs and pretty much created their...

Thats cause they were a ruling caste, not a huge folk migration

The prevailing theory is that is coalesced from a hodge podge of northern european merchants, sailors, and warriors from the norse, slavic, and finnish groups.

>hey bro some guy iam 1/8192 related to was a Swede so Rurikids are Nordic, also Scandinavia was ruled by the Slavs because founder of the House of Mecklenburg was a Slav

Pszeks are funny.

Are you denying Nestor's words? Read his chronicle, you morons.

>eastern slavs became imperial powerhouse
Not at all. Muscovy was a backward shithole compared to the likes of Bohemia and Poland.
>western slavs became german slaves
Eastern Slavs were mongol onahole for centuries, your point?

Rurikid identity was a hugely important feature of medieval rus, and the basis for this identity was based on the distinction the original viking rulers created between themselves and their subjects. Medieval Rus was essentislly a collection of states ALL of them ruled by rurikid dynasties under the hegemony of Kiev (among other cities nearby depending on the period were talking). You think its a coincidence that they ruled as a coalition of states in relative harmony? Its the rurikid identity that fostered this coalition, though i wont deny there were dynastic disputees and princes vying for hegemony

>Not at all. Muscovy was a backward shithole compared to the likes of Bohemia and Poland.
still managed to overcome "great" and "civilized" poland while bohemia was basically 100% germanic, the only people who spoke czech were peasants before their national awakening
so yeah i'd take being backward shithole over being so civilized that your own nation that collaborates in contributing to its own demise

Source: Janet Martin btw

>Slavs coming to present day Russia from West = Russian civilization created by Poles

great pszek logics

Daily reminder that Kievan Rus was founded by Lechites (see Kievan Polans, Radimichi, Vyatichi). But let's pretend Nestor simply lied when he said that elites came from West Slavic people.

I don't know this lady Janet Martin byut soething tells me that she (just like Montefiore and other charlatans) is unable to read in modern Russian let alone ancient Russian. This is true state of Anglo 'historians'.

WIR

oh, so russian 999 conquests of poland were always justified as they were just reclaiming their own clay
gotcha

WAR

It'd also be interesting to know why the Norse integrated so quickly and left almost no trace of their existence except for a handful of proper nouns and words. I imagine it has something to do with the East Slavic population being large and homogeneous, and the Norse invasion force relatively small.
Remember that people didn't care as much about ethnic affiliations at the time, and if the first Slavs the Rus' defeated were impressed by their skill many of them probably gladly joined the Rus' to fight against other Slavs, so it wouldn't have taken that many Rus' to create a snowball effect in which they eventually came to rule over all the East Slavs.
Is the invitation story really that plausible? What examples are you referring to with the Italians inviting rulers? I think it might also be an important distinction if those rulers were also Italian? I've read from a few sources that a simple slow conquest and consolidation of settlements along the Volga River seems more plausible. Also the treaty signed between the Byzantines and the Rus' contains only Norse-derived names. You would think that if the princes were invited, that most of the local elite would remain the same rather than being replaced.

>>The Primary Chronicle names a certain tribal leader; Vyatko as the forefather of the tribe, but the modern etymology places the word as a cognate to Veneti and Vandals. The Vyatichi were mainly engaged in farming and cattle-breeding. According to Nestor the Chronicler the Vyatichi were 'Lachy' (Lechites), similar to Lendians, and used to live in areas east of the Vistula river. Due to some foreign invasion they moved to the East. Between the ninth and tenth centuries, the Vyatichi paid tribute to the Khazars and later the Kievan princes (they were conquered by Svyatoslav I of Kiev in 966). The tribe, however, was constantly trying to defend its own political independence up until the early twelfth century. By the eleventh century, the Vyatichi had already populated the Moskva basin and the area of today's Moscow. In the 11th and 12th centuries, the tribe founded a number of cities due to developing handicrafts and increasing trade, including Moscow, Koltesk, Dedoslav, Nerinsk and others. In the second half of the 12th century the land of the Vyatichi was distributed among the princes of Suzdal and Chernigov. The last direct reference to the Vyatichi was made in a chronicle under the year of 1197. Indirect references, however, may be traced to the early fourteenth century.

Why are Russians so immune to facts? Did I hurt your feelings by simply stating the reality of Kiev Rus and its begining?

Don't pretend like modern Russia is some kind of sucesor of Kiev Rus, because you're more likely a successor of the Golden Horde.

>It'd also be interesting to know why the Norse integrated so quickly and left almost no trace of their existence except for a handful of proper nouns and words. I imagine it has something to do with the East Slavic population being large and homogeneous, and the Norse invasion force relatively small.
its a repeating pattern
see: lithuanians conquering modern belarus and then having their elite slowly russify themselves (and then polonize themselves as they join their country with poland)

Rurik and his men weren't genetically "germanic" to begin with. Main branches of their paternal lines were Finnic and Slavic.

Or could it be that both of these groups of Polans lived on a flat plain (pole), so they took the same name as each other?

Pelka pls
stop sticking your mongolian dick into russian history again

by cooperating in war, doing good buisness, and marrying their daughters

Italian cities invited condotieri including foreigners.

In ancient Russian towns (especially Northern ones) princes were also mainly military rulers, and the supreme power was assumed by Veche, i.e. gathering of citizens. In Novgorod veche remained till 16 century, in other ancient towns they disappeared earlier due to growth, immigration and centralization. (In newer towns like Moscow veche never existed.) If Norse really took over power by violence they would not let veche to exist.

>Rurik and his men weren't genetically "germanic" to begin with.
They almost certainly were, at least in part. Their Y-DNA haplogroup being N1c1 doesn't mean much at all, besides that Rurik was directly descended from a Uralic man from a couple thousands of years before. For all we know beyond that, he could have been 90% Finnish genetically, or one percent.

>I don't know this lady Janet Martin
Why do you need to emphasize she's a women?

>byut soething tells me that she (just like Montefiore and other charlatans)
Have you read the book? Have you read about her? Clearly not, because she spends the books weighing the merit of all the medieval russian chronicles and quoting them extensively.

>This is true state of Anglo 'historians'.
You're clearly not fit to make any judgements. You're opinions are worse than worthless.

Oh, so you are that Polish Venetifag, no doubt citing source of your wisdom.

Let me guess - Slavs originated from Poland? yeah?

I don't see any counter argument here, instead you're projecting and changing the subject.

I accept your defeat. I am your Khan now, ruskie.

>If Norse really took over power by violence they would not let veche to exist.
Maybe they employed a group of mercenaries to take power over the cities who went home after they took the cities. If they were badly outnumbered by the local population, it wouldn't have been smart to strip them of their dearest freedoms. Or maybe they wanted the genuine loyalty of the cities they conquered so that they would fight on their side as they continued down the Volga.
That also doesn't account for why all the Rus' representatives mentioned in the Rus'-Byzantine Treaty of 907 had Norse names. As I said earlier, one would expect an invited prince to keep most of the local elite in place rather than installing his own.

There is no sign or trace of any Germanic DNA in Russia. If those "Germanic norse viking supermen" were so sucesfful they would leave a lot of babies and their babies would leave another branch of Norse babies.

But we know the reality of it, don't we?

Just like how the varangian guard heavily impacted the genetics of the byzantines, amirite?

Different thing, considering the narrative pushed here is that the Norse took over East Slavs and ruled over them. That would give multiple wives to Norse elites, which in turn gives multiple children. Do you realise how much Norse Y-DNA they would leave?

But they didn't. I know you want your Nordic power fantasy to be true, especially with the recent "NORDIC ARYAN" brigade on both Veeky Forums and /int/ but let's be realistic for once.

They were proud Finnish warriors, not G*rmanics.

this has nothing to do with Aryan pseudoscience. It's hard historical fact (according to the scanty evidence we have).

What is? That they didn't leave Germanic Y-DNA in Russia at all? Not even Rurik's men did. Of course it's a hard historical and genetic fact, already debunked by Russians years ago.

Are you retarded?
Imagine 100 vikings making 1000 half viking children who again make 10000 children with locals so you got quadroons and these make also 10 children so you got 100000 1.8th vikings. You completely dismiss that vikings fucking slav women doenst make 100% vikings but it makes 50 half vikings imagine generations of that and the bloodline gets thinner and thinner. So fuck off literal brainlet

>Imagine 100 vikings making 1000 half viking children who again make 10000 children with locals so you got quadroons and these make also 10 children so you got 100000 1.8th vikings. You completely dismiss that vikings fucking slav women doenst make 100% vikings but it makes 50 half vikings imagine generations of that and the bloodline gets thinner and thinner. So fuck off literal brainlet
Paternal line stays the same, you cretin.

> How did a bunch of Viking adventurers ended up ruling over an entire branch of east slavs and pretty much created their civilization?

They did not rule over the Slavs though, it was a federation of rulers with Rurik merely the figurehead.

In the listing of the Rus in the Primary Chronicle, the scandinavians(varangians) are merely listed as one of the Rus tribes, not them being the Rus, 12 other tribes(mostly Slavs) are stated as also being the Rus;

"Leaving Igor in Kiev, Oleg attacked the Greeks. He took with him a multitude of Varangians, Slavs; Chuds, Krivichians, Merians, Polianians, Severians, Derevlians, Radimichians, Croats, Dulebians, and Tivercians, who are Tors. All these tribes are known as Great Scythia by the Greeks. With this entire force, Oleg sallied forth by horse and by ship, and the number of his vessels was two thousand."

This is merely a single generation after Rurik, the vikings became Slavs as they were drowned in a sea of Slavic culture, not the other way around.

They even abandoned their own religion and started worshiping Slavic gods before Rurik even died.

there are tons of reasons to account for this, reasons already pointed out here. slavic population was too numerous and most importantly, isolated in rural hamlets. the Rus is extremely rural country until the 1700s.

> Croats

We wuz vikings n shieeet boii

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Croats

>There is no sign or trace of any Germanic DNA in Russia. If those "Germanic norse viking supermen" were so sucesfful they would leave a lot of babies and their babies would leave another branch of Norse babies.
You can stop addressing me as if I have a pro-Germanic agenda, because I am Slavic myself. The reason why there is little genetic trace of the Norse in the Russian population is because Rurik's initial force was probably very small. I agree that many of the initial invasion force probably consisted of Finns, and that after some initial fighting most of Rurik's troops were probably Slavs. However, it is ridiculous to claim that Rurik was not genetically Germanic at all, and even if that were the case, it's pretty clear from the name of his companions that these were Finns and Slavs who were VERY well-integrated with the Norse.

Also, since I love kicking people when they're down.
>You completely dismiss that vikings fucking slav women doenst make 100% vikings but it makes 50 half vikings imagine generations of that and the bloodline gets thinner and thinner. So fuck off literal brainlet
What is a "half-viking" exactly according to you? Can you be a "half-baker" ? Perhaps a "half-teacher" ? Or maybe "half-policeman" ?

Protip: Viking was a way of life not an ethnicity. Slavic vikings existed as well.
Now you're mixing up concepts to explain your retarded posts in a way that it would make you look less retarded. The damage is done boy, you're already in the ground.

also
>the Rus is extremely rural country until the 1700s.

>the Rus
>1700
>THE RUS
>1700
HAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Anyway Russia had already civilization, i.e. towns even before Rurik, whether he existed or not. There is archeological evidence that these towns (like Ladoga) had been also frequented a lot by Norse people before Rurik. Looks like Slav-Norse relationships (and both of them were relative newcomers in those mostly Finnic-populated territories) were much more complex that simple ruler-subject paradigm.

>your retarded posts
which ones?

>>the Rus
>1700
see pic related, Rus has multiple meanings

...

Even considering the numerous advantage of the local population, it would still leave significant trace in Y-DNA of the male population.

Rurikids were already checked and they were Finnic and Slavic.

...

Sorry Janet, didn't want to hurt you. But do you speak Russian? Common sense dictates that you can't carry out original research in history without knowing language of your subject. And without original research your job will be just recycling.

>Rurikids were already checked and they were Finnic and Slavic.
I think this is the key though. "Vikings" and "Norsmen" is actually a very imprecise term and its quite possible that people with all the ethnic features we associate with ""nordic"" vikings were
shared by many baltic peoples. Its quite possible that many assimilated "nordic" features on the baltic or that the viking identity itself is an amalgamation resulting from Baltic exchange. The isles of bornholm and gothland, for example, received much slavic migration in this very early period or at the very least they were trading posts between slavdom and northern germanics.

>Sorry Janet, didn't want to hurt you.
typical /pol/ack.
>hurrrrr durrrrr you must be the person your defending cause they're all part of a conspiracy

>Common sense dictates that you can't carry out original research in history without knowing language of your subject.
Someone with a Phd learns the language of the history they're doing, retard.

>And without original research your job will be just recycling.
No shit. That said, original research isn't always good nor does it prevent one from writing general historical works that synthesize the works of other historians. Why are you creating a false dichotomy?

>some distant Rurik ancestors was N1c
>WE WUZ FINNS
This DNA nonsense is beyond autistic.

I absolutely agree. I think our only point of disagreement is on invasion or invitation. I certainly think that the invitation narrative is plausible, but I think that the invasion narrative is more likely.

east slavs were gentle agriculture practising people who became aggressive drunkards bent on spreading misery only as they started mixing with finns
prove me wrong

All Indo-European people were aggressive murderers and rapists. That includes Slavs.

if at least 50 Norsemen came to rule over the Slavs how come we have no record of them? at all? Not even a haplomeme to confirm the existence of JUST ONE NORSEMAN in Kiev?

The Byzantines recorded Norse presence among the Rus.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rus'–Byzantine_Treaty_(907)

Also, the Norse were mostly located north in Novgorod, they may have collected tribute from Kiev, but didn't settle in numbers large enough to leave any lasting genetic markers, or only intermarried with their own women back in Sweden.

Rurik is highly debatable to have even existed. the tale is just that, a tale and largely has no real evidence to back it, but it also can't really be disproven.
Source is my professor whose doctorate is in Russia during my class on Russia.

I used to think that Polish butthurt against Russians was the most potent on the planet, but I think the Russian inferiority complex runs even deeper.

story time
from cambridge history of russia

...

...

...

...

I don't suppose anyone wants to be polite and educate me on Ugrics. I know Finn/Hungarian but then am directed to Ural Mtns? What went on here 'bouts?

hunting and gathering but then suddenly cold, and migration

Tribals and nomads user. Some tribes migrated west becoming the finns and hungarians.

>It'd also be interesting to know why the Norse integrated so quickly and left almost no trace of their existence
They did not integrated quickly at all. Rurikid dynasty was linked with Scandinavia for many hundred years.

Sources of his existance:
every single chronicle in Russia
Archaeological evidence of Rurik's keep being Norse (littered with Norse household items and artefacts)
Byzantine sources
Norse sources

>Byzantine sources
>Norse sources
can you post them im curious

Why Rus' people were called Rutheni?

Initially "Rutheni" was Latin name for Rugii, presumably German tribe
which lived on territory of Northern Poland, North-East Germany.
Rani (Slavic tribe, but with strong Germanic influence) inherited the name "Rutheni" as they lived on the same territory later.
Then the chieftain of Rani branch Rurik was invited by Ilmen Slovens to be their king.
That's the story.

Inscription on the picture: Odoacer Rex Rvthenorvm Geppidi Gothi Vngari et Hervli

Swedes have 7% N1c which peaks in Roslagen homeland of the Rus specifically because of the proximity and ancient links to Finland.
The odds of Rurik being Germanic aren't even odds, it's confirmed through subclade analysis and there's no point debating about it since there's nothing left to debate.

There is no evidence for "Rugii" being Germanic in the first place.

MY

That's true though. Majority of "Germanic" tribes weren't Germanic at all. There is no evidence for it, just wishful thinking.

Rugii are a germanic tribe from Rogaland, Norway.

Not backed up by any evidence, just wishful thinking. You can find explanation for "Rugii" in both Celtic and Slavic languages.

Germania was a geographical term. It was populated by various people that had nothing to do with each other.

>Majority
Big claim. Your proof?

That research was not scientifically correct.
They took big amount of samples from Sweden and almost none from Slavic and Baltic countries.

Roslagen was under sea level in the time of Rurik and later it became capital region.
It's natural for capital to collect foreign genes.
Finland with their N1c was owned by Sweden and if some Finish moved to Sweden they most likely moved to the capital.

stop giving him (you)'s
finnish claims of being part of russian history beyond being conquered from sweden and becoming slaves building st petersburg are laughable

Lots of wishful thinking and no evidence.
So, we have three things supporting a Scandinavian origin for the Rus in Russia.

1. Scandinavia specific Y-DNA
2. Exclusively Scandinavian names like Rurik
3. Rus being a Scandinavian tribe whose legacy still lives in placenames in Central Sweden

Meanwhile on the other side we have

1.

>stop giving him (You)'s
>gives him a (You)

What did he mean by this?

>1. Scandinavia specific Y-DNA
Not evidence, just wishful thinking.
You have to make enough research in other countries, not only in Sweden to make comparison.

>2. Exclusively Scandinavian names like Rurik
Rarog - Falcon in Slavic language
Reregs - Slavic tribe
Rerik - Slavic city

>3. Rus being a Scandinavian tribe whose legacy still lives in placenames in Central Sweden
Compare Roslagen and Ryssland (Russia) in Swedish. O vs Y.
Rus was called Ros only by Greeks, because they din't have proper letter for U sound.

Rus had stronger connection with Denmark, not with Sweden.

>Meanwhile on the other side we have

1.
Written sources. Rus original land is mentioned as one on the East from Angles' (Danish) land.
Rus language is mentioned as no different from the language of Slovens.
Religious traditions of Rus were Slavic
Swedish are mentioned in chronicles, but never connected with Rus.

2.
Absolute absence of any reference on Swedish origin of Rus in Historiography or verbal tradition until the end 18th century
when Swedish theory was invented.

3.
The closest toponyms to the Rus' tribe name are river Rusne (Russ in German) (main branch of Neman delta) and island Rusne (in Neman delta).
It corresponds very well with Rurikid's verbal tradition about their land of origin.
Although Prussia was mostly land of Baltic tribes, Slavic tribes also could have settlements there.
It is known that Prussia and Novgorod had old trade connections.
Prussian street is one of the most ancient streets in Novgorod.

This.
Fucking this.

and what about ? author writes that rohden region of Sweden got transliterated to "rohtsi" by the finns in the baltic region and this was changed to "rus" in slavic, the latter to indicating scandinavian traders

>ruling over an entire branch of east slavs and pretty much created their civilization?

>Slavs; Chuds, Krivichians, Merians, Polianians, Severians, Derevlians, Radimichians, Croats, Dulebians, and Tivercians, who are Tors
what did it become of these tribes? besides the croats I never heard of any of them

They all integrated into brotherly family of peoples.

so into the slavs we know of today?

Into the Russians (including Belarussians and Ukrainians).

Chud, Merya - Finnic tribes assimilated by Russians
Krivichi - Belorussians and Russians. Latvians call Russians Krievi to date.
Polianians - East and Central Ukrainians
Severiane - Southern Russians, North-East Ukrainians
Drevliane - Central Ukraininas and Belorussians
Radomichi - Ukrainians, Russians, Belorussians
(White) Croats - Transcarpathian (or Ciscarpathian depending on where you are now) Russians (Rusyns)
Dulebs - I believe Czechs. They had been fucked severely by Avars.
Tivertsi - Western Ukrainians IIRC

Pretty embarassing desu. Almost as bad as being ruled by Mongols.

viking
vampire
it all fits

>Kievan Rus
>Russian