What was Norman controlled Southern Italy like?

Did they get along good with the locals?

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Civitate
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cerami
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Montemaggiore
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Montepeloso
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Olivento
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae_(1018)
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Kek, what a random place for ciking to invade

>ayo my nord brother leta find a good place to invade
>aye
>Germany?
>nay
>France?
>already did it
>England?
>nay
>Spain?
>nay
>do we really have to go to the mediterrenian sea?
>yea
>fine, Morroco?
>nay
>Tunis?
>nay
>Southern Italy?
>totaly

>Germany


shithole

>France

Already invaded

>England

Already invaded


>Spain

raided but the mudslims were too many


>Morocco

Same and also the desert isn't that appealing


>Tunis

surrounded by mudslims


>Southern italy


Rich, prosperous, intellectually thriving, popolous, great climate, and Christians to the North, West and East

They were hired as mercs by the local longobardian princes like Melus of Bari and Pandulf of Capua, they took over from within. It's not like they came down as an army from Normandy with the specific aim of conquering terronia.

t.brainlet

At first they were hated and shunned for their brutal tactics during the conquest phase, but once they took power they turned out to be pretty tolerant with everybody and made great regents.

They did invade Tunisia after Italy, it didn't last as long though

Guys, you lack the mental capacity for this thread. Thanks for trying.

How popular were the Normans compared to the Arabs?

You are a retarded subhuman, now shut the fuck up and step of your high horse

A lot more

>You are a retarded subhuman, now shut the fuck up and step of your high horse

Much more, like before the Normans there was like 3 different Arab emirs fighting for control in Sicily and total chaos. Under Norman rule it was a unified kingdom, but they kept the various Greek and Arab administrators if they did a good job.

>What was Norman controlled Southern Italy like?
>Y'ALL NIGGAS DUNNO SHIT WEWUZ Y'ALL ROMAN ELITES N SHIET WE AIN'T RAIDIN NIGGA WE RECLAIMIN

...

what's nuts is that you're not trolling. you are legitimately like this. fuckin a

Comfy after the Church finally accepted their rule and stopped trying to have other powers kick them out.
Bohemond and Robert actually came to the rescue to save the Pope. The majority of Norman lords were very devoted catholics, even as far as stopping a battle mid seige to go on Crusade upon the news of the Crusade being called.

>Bohemond and Robert actually came to the rescue to save the Pope.
To be fair, they also took the Pope hostage back when he wasn't on their side.

>The majority of Norman lords were very devoted catholics, even as far as stopping a battle mid seige to go on Crusade upon the news of the Crusade being called.
They were catholics, but that didn't stop them to openly fight the Pope/Church whenever it benefited them, or openly ignoring their commands, like when Bohemund took Antiochia and kept if for himself.

based Bohemond did nothing wrong. Antioch is frankish clay

Bohemond wasn't Frankish but distinctively Norman.

>they forced Britcucks to speak their tongue but not Italians

Why? Were Britcucks more subservient to them?

the normans were franks in every regard except for their distant norse heritage. they spoke old french, adopted french cultural mores and attitudes and social conventions.

it was a more successful experiment, i think mostly cause a lot more normans went to England than to Southern Italy (the latter numbering in the hundreds, the former in the thousands (?) and supplemented by generations of migration afterward from france to fortify norman hegemony)

>the normans were franks
>Franks are now french

the Franks is a general catch all terms for Latin Christians living in Outremer/Levant/Crusader States. The majority of these "Franks" spoke a variation of old French, namely norther langue-oel dialect and southern languedoc dialect (provencal/occitan). Franks essentially refers to all people who lived in the original Frankish Kingdom of the Merovingians and Carolingians, roughly the are covering modern day france, and in those days whoever pledged the King of France residing in Paris/ Ile de France, as their fedual overlord. So, yes, the normans were Franks and the Franks roughly overlaps with French speakers.

The thing is just the Normans didn't identify as Franks, at least not in Italy. For example when they worked as mercenaries during the start of their Italian career, one of their standard demands was that Norman prisoners of war were sparred and handed over to them. They were pretty explicit on that and didn't give a shit about Frankish warriors.
I blame the Byzantines who labelled everything Frank that came from Western Europe, no mater if Frankish, proto french or anything else from the HRE like Saxons ar Swabians.

Saxons high class was BTFO and replaced, while in Italy the Normans mixed with the local Lombardic and Frankish nobles and adopted the local languages after few generations.

>Frankish nobles
afaik there was no Frankish nobles at the time in southern Italy and they didn't mix much with the Lombards, rather replaced them. However you are right that they did not replace the existing administration like they did in England and rather kept them.

More likely is that they had Greek, Italian/vulgar Latin and Arab languages already in place with the administration, so there was not much need to introduce a 4th language.

All I really know about Norman southern Italy was Frederick II's rule and how nice it was. If you consider it Norman by that point that is (his grandfather was Roger II, who founded the Kingdom of Sicily).

No, "Normans" only replaced Greeks and Arabs, but they mixed with the local nobles of Lombardic, Frankish and Bavarian origins. Most Norman knights had local wives.

Fun fact, Frederick II's native language was Sicilian. Or, at least, we know it's the language that he ordered his court to speak.

>Frederick II
was Swabian, from the Staufer line, he definitely wasn't Norman.
>yes, it is a clusterfuck down in Sicily

>Frankish and Bavarian origins.
Please bring examples for this. Like afaik there was no frankish or bavarian nobles during the 11th century in southern Italy at all.

> Normans didn't identify as Franks
it's interesting, are there any other historical equivalents to this?

Depends on, Franks was used inflationary in the mediterran region for everything north of the Alps. Normans would identify only with fellows from the Duchy of Normandy and of Norman heritage, which meant they were related to some degree. Also, Norman was like a quality brand name at the time, denoting Europe's finest cavalry at the time.
A Saxon knight would be called a Frank by both Byzantines and Arabs, but he himself would never identify as such.
Think of a tribal society where one tribes name became the moniker for dozens others.

They did pretty well, the pope generally liked them, they btfo'd the mudslimes without blasting away the good parts of their administration and overall lead to one of terronia's golden ages

Frederick's mother was the last norman ruler of the kingdom of Sicily and Frederick himself grew up in terronia

Many Normans took wives from Northern Italy, Germany and France as well and their descendants ruled S.Italy.

Yes, and his daddy was German emperor and son of Barbarossa himself. And thats why Freddy 2 isn't seen as a Norman, despite being clearly a Sicilian boy.

As mentioned, please bring historic examples. Because the de Hautevilles for sure didn't marry no Bavarians during the 11th century.

>By 1050, Palermo had a population of 350,000, making it one of the largest cities in Europe, behind Islamic Spain's capital Córdoba and the Byzantine capital of Constantinople, which had populations over 450,000. In contrast, under the succeeding Christian Kingdom of Sicily, Palermo's population dropped to 150,000, though it was still one of the largest cities in Europe, while there was a greater decline in Córdoba's population; by 1330 Palermo's population had declined to 51,000.[15]

haha im just kidding. Normal controlled southern Italy proved to be a period of tolerance with
>diversity
and
>multiculturalness

King Roger II's rule saw the employment of many Greek and Arabs in the government, most notably the cartographer al-Idrisi who created the Tabula Rogeriana.

also,

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman-Arab-Byzantine_culture

Byzantine turf was fair game, besides he was above the other crusader princes and knew this reconquest of the holy land was a scam when they claimed to have *q chior of angels* "found the holy lance of Antioch."

His nephew tancred learned this too when he turned out to be the only one who actually tried to save the citizens of Jerusalem during the onslaught that was the retaking of the holy city

ok, but they did fight the Pope head on if needed be. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Civitate

Who was the sexiest of the Normans? Tankred obviously was the most fertile, like the Walder Frey of his time.

well whats wrong with that?

By the medieval period, the feelings of mediterranean people had become irrelevant. There is no record of what they thought about the occupation, because they likely had no thoughts and were simply bipedal livestock.

Who the fuck is walder frey

Were they on fucking steroids?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cerami
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Montemaggiore
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Montepeloso
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Olivento
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cannae_(1018)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Civitate

Seriously?

My scicilian grandfather was blonde so i would have to say yes.

ISIS still calls the Western powers franzh, much like the Jews called Rome Babylon(rhastas still call the police, state, every oppressive power Babylon). It became a religious umbrella term.

Normans were the black bulls of europe in 10-1100s. Ireland southern italy levant scotland england wales all fell to the norman bull

They were the best at warfare and had the absolute best heavy cavalry at the time(also pretty numerous, they could raise 1000 armored knights) and had excellent esprit de corps and a string of excellent commanders.

I do wonder tho: does all this come from their Norse roots and their former religion which praised the warrior as a mythological figure or was this one of those strange accidents of history when, for a short while, some people just curbstomp everyone?

Christ Almighty