The European Union

How do we fix it?

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theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/merkel-ally-manfred-weber-brexit-talks-second-referendum
youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita
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>3827025
brit bongs are out who cares anymore do whatever you want

Brits already fixed it by taking the trash (themselves) out.

When I last checked, the bongs were still in there. Is it really that unlikely that they will pull a last minute switcheroo?

More focus on a common defense and foreign policy, less on autistically regulating the form, composition and content of those pointless little stickers that go on fruit.

Make it a democracy.

Allow the parliament to write and vote laws autonomously, regarding any matter of public interest including monetary policies, and the free market.

Hope not. But the German conservatives would like that.
theguardian.com/politics/2017/dec/13/merkel-ally-manfred-weber-brexit-talks-second-referendum

The one way for them to save themselves and have their dreams of a 'new' roman empire come true, is for them to all vote for a senate directly from the commoner classes, and dissolve all notions of sovereignty.

Whilst they all say it won't happen, the only feasible option is a 'fast-track' of closer integration amongst the key Western States (Germany, France, Italy etc) whilst leaving eastern europe out to the cold.

Not Veeky Forums

Did they make it just to take in immagrants?

*immigrants

Remodel the European constitution according to the Swiss confederation.
Concordance type government, wide autonomy for member states, limited direct democracy instruments for the population.
Like their shit works for centuries without war, for 4 different languages and cultures, and with lots of money for everybody.

More democracy is definitely needed.

Most of those regulations were pretty common sense and in fact demanded by the industry.

I'm sure the vacuum cleaner industry was just crying out to not be allowed to sell products which work properly.

Religion is dead in Europe, no one cares.

>leave east EU out to the cold
>v4 + balkans put up import tariffs
>germany suffers as its export profits fall and as it is unable to adjust with an integraed currency in a common market to battle inflation

hmmm

I said most.

Stuff like usb standardization and fruit regulations were all good stuff.

Looks like napoleon's wet dream

Kill the jews

Some Regs are, some are overbearing and pointless, and some are basically ignored by the countries they were aimed at.

My wider point is that it focuses too much on this tedious minutiae and not enough on sexy big-issue shit like the sand monkey zerg rush. Its total lack of leadership or any kind of active involvement in that is entirely responsible for the far right changing from a meme into an electoral force in France and Germany.

You ought to fix the hole in your ship's hull before you start reorganising the cutlery drawer in the galley.

Stop migration. That's the number one thing Le Pen and Brexiteers made hay out of. People will grumble about regs and shit, but it's migration that is killing the EU. Quotas on how many Eastern Euros can go into the West, in exchange no more migration from Asia and Africa.

Also, the fugees have to go back eventually.

>quotas on east-west movement
>in exchange for no more ME/African migrants

Who are the parties to this exchange? Eastern Europe wants unrestricted movement to the west plus no sand monkeys, while western Europe governments are hell bent on importing limitless sand monkeys and either don't want or don't care about Eastern European immigrants.

Kick out Southern and Eastern Europeans, make it more democratic and less centralized

Nice politics thread, wish there was a board specifically for politics since this one isn't

Are you retarded? Kick South and East Eurocountries and EU will fall apart from cucking itself with immigration and "tolerance". Southern and Eastern Europe are literally holding EU together, be it with their protected (Greece/Spain/Italy) borders or with political and ideological differences, like in Poland. If it wasn't them, Europe would would be a caliphate by 2015 already. I agree EU to start operating like a fedaration we need to consolidate more power from individual nations, like deciding on military, borders and common foreign policy.

>poland is helping the EU
It is a market for other EU countries to export to. Politically and ideologically, it is just a shitkicker. It undermines it's own constitution and pulls anti-secular stuff like declaring itself Jesus Christ"s kingdom. The RCC had no part on that, btw. And now the EU is going to crank the shit-flinging up to eleven by fast-tracking Serbia's ascension. There are more Serbs against than for it, fuckdamn.

It would result in total political upheaval in Britain.
They put it to a democratic vote, going against that would be rejecting democracy.

A common secondary language

The question is, which one?

I disagree, specially on monetary policy. I believe in general independency of the central banks.

I like how direction of the commission is divided by the council and the parliament. From the council you need unanimity, which is something you can't expect get from a large parliament. And the council itself also has popular mandate.

>Serbia is going to join the EU
>Joining the EU requires the unanimous consent of the existing membership
>Croatia is a member of the EU
I would say pick 2 but the 2nd and 3rd options have already been chosen for you

Why should i be kicked if my country is more powerful and have a biggest economy than your little "province" (calling you a country its a joke).

dissolve it.

How can you say that when you don't even know what country he's from?

Its easy to know. Northern Yurop

Anyway, theyre always saying the same thing. Like if their countries doesnt live of the German market.

Look how perfect we are, how hardworking, how responsable....

And how incompetent are the Italians, how lazy are the spaniards, how poor are the portuguese....

Get rid of it, its meant to abolish every european culture to prepare for the zionist NWO. EU was literally made by a genocidal jew Kalergi.

Who on /pol/ discusses Politics seriously and with a modicum of knowledge?

its too bloated and bureaucratic, the people in charge are completely unaccountable
it can't be fixed, only torn down and remade from the ground up

>the council has popular mandate
Representative democracy is flawed already. Adding one or two layers between voters and representatives makes it undemocratic.

Lack of information and education of the voters regarding the activities of the council is a problem too.

Common fiscal policy and most economic problems would be gone.Also more money for the development fund which is the fastest way to increase trade and the economy of all of Europe
>Kick out Southern Europe
Don't you realise that southern Europe is the fastest growing region in the whole continent.Spain will soon be a net contributor and they are growing at a huge pace.Italy alone is the 3 biggest contributor and Greece has tones of potential.Eastern Europe is a mess but they will figure it out soon

All human-based systems are flawed, it is a matter of degree. In several matters I trust expert consensus over popular consensus. I do believe masses should have enough leverage to act as a check or balance on higher-ups, but I don't trust them without at least one level of separation between any of the three branches of government.

Examples of what I consider major issues:
-when judges are elected, like the USA, they apply different penalties depending on wether they are campaigning for re-election or not
-legislators and executives tend to pursue policies with quick returns (that will fit within one electoral cycle) and disregard sustainable development
-juries often fail to understand basic legal concepts such as "beyond reasonable doubt" or "presumption of innocense"
-in direct democracy, (think Athenian) a simple majority is able to dictate the life and death of individuals and minorities

Countries are no regions
The EU is now a single country
We set the country on a single working and fair model of social welfare.
Deal with riots and nationalists for a few decades before education fade them out.
Make all religion illegal, they need to die out, for real.
Deal with immigration issues as a whole.
Expel whoever is not agreeing with our new order.

Reduce membership to countries with similar levels of development.

Make it a single (federal) nation.

Get rid of all the dumb regulations and free movement bullshit and just keep it as an open market

Poland is the welfare queen of the European Union, in a matter of years they're gonna make Greece look like Netherlands

No because Napoleon wanted to ally WITH Russia

If that fucker Tallyrand hadn't stabbed him in the back and told Tzar Alexander to refuse his overtures, Napoopan could have formed a dual pillar pan european alliance and basically crushed out the HRE, Spain, and England by sheer weight.

DIRECT RULE FROM BRUSSELS

The main problem of the EU is precisely the experts.
First they are not actually experts. They are not chosen on their knowledge and abilities, but out of political considerations.
And when they are "experts", it just makes it worse when they take care of political matters, as they believe their ideas to be the truth and not part of an ideology.
And they very much are mistaken on that point. Experts or not, they do not escape from their sociological background, and whenever possible, the policies they defend are those that protect the interests of their class. They are generally not less short sighted than the citizens.
Secondly, even if their rule was better than democracy, if they lose the trust of the people and undermine that way the whole system and their own power (as it is happening) then they can be right all the time, they will still be in the wrong.

What's wrong with it? I'm in Vienna now, and this place is amazing.

so is this just a non-/pol/ politics board now?

Look like it, not that i'm against it.

invite argentina so you have almost 50 millon white ppl in the union with a birth rate of 3.2 so you dont have to import more sandniggers

Scrap the whole thing and turn it into a trade block.
The only good thing about the European Union is that 28 countries are stronger than 1 in trade negotiations.

Surprisingly the very thing the commissioners get criticised for is exactly the thing needed to make the idea of the European Union work. Dissolve the nation state and make the EU a country.
People have such strong national attachments that a certain amount of propaganda is needed.
As the larger economies are more influential in the bloc it may be needed to federalise on the regional level instead.

As I'm an English small 'c' conservative this idea sounds like absolute cancer to me so I hope the EU crumbles in all honesty.

Also, great post on the problems with 'experts' and technocrats.

If they do that the EU will fuck them in the ass and impose a lot of shit to them for being such unstable retards

a new constitution that severally limits its power.

how did an economic bloc wind up being a Confederation government?

That's what is happening already. Italians are buying out lybians so they won't let those migrants pass, and the EU gave billions to Libya itself to keep them.
The african demographic pressure will be even bigger in the future, we need to be ready

One country with one king

You dont

As long as england becomes an EU dominion, I'm in

Gumball Immigration

youtube.com/watch?v=LPjzfGChGlE

the only sane thing to do is to stop letting them in. the west cannont possibly take them all in. It would just break western infrastructure and services, and make everyone but the wealthy worse off.

There's nothing to fix. At this rate, the EU itself will cause another war in Europe.

> the west cannont possibly take them all in
For sure, but seeing the demographic boom in Africa, the middle east about to become more and more of a shitshow with desertification and war for water, we need a fucking new plague or mines on all the borders

You don't. The EU lacks homogeneity.

Abolish it.

>trying to unite culturally and politically vastly different people
Won't work.

It was working until West/North Europe wanted to bring in non Europeans.

EU's non immigrant related problem is the free trade and common currency. Which has allowed the Western and northern europeans to suppress economic development of the East and South Europeans. Which keeps the east and south dependent on money from the west and north. which is given freely by the west and north because it keeps the value of the currency down. Which supports the dominance of the west and north.

>It was working until West/North Europe wanted to bring in non Europeans.

Define working. Making trade between nations easier isn't very difficult to do, and doesn't require a massive bureaucracy that tries to become the next United States federal government.

Done

Firstly, the commission employes teams of technical experts on the matters of interest. The commissioners themselves are political appointees, yes, same as it happens to most higher offices in any government. The point is that they often consult with independent research teams and NGOs.

Secondly, and again, technocrats in the Commission do have popular mandate, because their functions were delegated to them by popularly elected officials, as explained above.Every commission officer is also subjected to approval by the EP (which is itself elected by direct suffrage union-wide), besides being appointed by the Council (whose members are elected by suffrage according to each member-states constitution). If they lose the trust of the people, the fault lies as much with the democratic institutions as with the Commission because it's policies can only be made law and implemented through those - majority rule by EP, unanimous rule by EC. If you can't trust your democratically elected representatives to act in your best interest in initiating and blocking policy proposals, how can you trust democratically elected representatives to write and research the policy proposals in addition to that?

And I presented other points as to why I distrust more direct forms of democracy. Those weren't adressed.

>Making trade between nations easier isn't very difficult to do, and doesn't require a massive bureaucracy
Yeah, if you want to degrade product regulations back to 19th century consumer protection level and flood your markets with misleading labels.

Why does it look like europe is screaming?

It looks like the Balkans are laughing at the Fenno-Swedish genitals on top.

ÉIRE?
Well, whatever, who needs the Irish anyway.

The other points were not addressed by me because they were not related to my own point which was about installing a less convoluted representative democracy.

But if you want to know my opinion on those too here it is : I am not in favour of elected judges at present, though anyway their sentences vary already with their mood, the ugliness of the accused, and such, so it doesn't make a moral difference for them to change with electoral reasons; nor am I in favour of juries being used more; as for direct democracy, it does not oppress the minority any more than representative democracy.

>muh black and white thinking

The choice isn't between the EU and total destruction of the European economy you shill

I agree on most points, I myself prefer civil law with as little room open for intrepretation, with juries being scarcely-to-never used.

Representative democracies tend to have more checks and balances. Proposals are debated longer, with more opportunities for them to be blocked, and protections for minorities and individual rights from the majority can be enshrined in very stable legal documents. I do take Constitutions to be living documents, but the process of amendment, as it exists in constitutional states, tends to make it harder for totalitarians and populists to rise above the law and do what I consider to be abuses of power (regardless of the abusers being elites or street mobs).

How the fuck you plan on keeping high standards AND open markets, if the markets don't have equivalent standards? What is stopping one country from producing shit and passing it off as quality-stuff in another country if they don't agree on what "shit" and "quality-stuff" mean?

I bet your region doesn't have toponymic labels, cultureless swine.

>Eastern Europe is a mess
Fiscally EE countries are the most stable, and Greece with Portugal are poorer than Czechia, Slovenia and Slovakia. Not even mentioning the fucking eternal debt generator Southern Europe is.

>Greece with Portugal are poorer than Czechia, Slovenia and Slovakia
No, they aren't. Neither in GDP nor GDP per capita.

They have higher debt, but they have started balacing the books as of late.

Blow it out your ass.

Yes, the EU is a scheme to import arabs into Europe.

>Czechia
>Eastern Europe
I thought they were considered central Europe?

In that case the only Eastern European countries in Europe would be Romania and Bulgaria.

?

>with a birth rate of 3.2
Argentina barely cracks 2.3

>more populated countries generate higher nominal GDP
Good work Sherlock. Which is why I posted GDP per capita.
And seriously if Poland is "welfare queen of Europe" then what is Greece? Literally a sponge masquerading as a country.

Spain has been the fastest growing economy in western Europe for the last 30 years and with the flux of Latin American investment and inmigration they will be amongst the most stable countries economically and demographically in Europe and a net contributor in a couple of years.Italy is alredy a contributor.Portugal can improve a lot in the upcoming years,specially if Spain keeps growing at this pace and Greece is a mess, but they have a huge merchant fleets and are the gateaway to all of the middle east.Stripping Southern Europe from the EU would cripple the EU a lot and EUcrats know this,specially when the demographic bomb explodes in eastern europe

>Spain
>most stable
They literally had one of their regions declare independence just a while ago.

Only Slovenia clocks in ahead of Portugal.
Slovakia has lowe gdp per capita than Greece.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

I'm not the user that called Poland that, btw, but remember that Greece was in the EU for almost 20 years before Poland. It had way more time to rack up a tab, and the EU only started hitting hard these last 8 years. Poland was only 4-years into the EU when austerity came, so it never got to become so indebted.

Poland actually scores below all 5 you mentioned, also.

Can someone explain to me what the trouble with the EU, supposedly, is? I'm visiting the EU from the US right now, and things seem pretty amazing here. It's cheap, clean, beautiful, historic, with intelligent and cultured people everywhere. What's the problem?

>nominal instead of PPP
user please.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

What countries have you seen so far?

Also, you went during winter?

The EU needs to become more like the HRE

Greece being in the EU longer than Poland only means they've been sucking Brussel's tit for that much longer. They were literally paying their train conductors and clerks a king's ransom in pension after retiring at 40, and then cooked books and doctored their fiscal reports to hide the debt hole they were plunging their nation into.

>technocrats in the Commission do have popular mandate, because their functions were delegated to them by popularly elected officials
And again, I tell you that this additional distance from the votes of the citizens gives more room for the usual malfunctions of the representative system to fuck things up.

People vote for their national parliaments according to national issues. Sometimes local issues. Parliaments create national governments according to partisan politics. National governments name commissioners according to their whims. Commissioners are confirmed by the European Parliament according to inter-national negociations.
The will of the people is lost on this long winding way... but it was never even specifically expressed at the start.
They vote regarding european matters for their MPS, but those can only say yes or no to others' proposals, and political will cannot be expressed that way.

The fact that the EP's attributions are stunted and that actual legislative power is all over the place ensures too that citizens and media's take little interest in European elections and usual proceedings of the parliament, and this weakens it further.

And thus european policies are decided on behind closed doors with as little democratic control and responsibility as possible.

You shouldn't try to deny it, because you approve of this system. You're not the only one : this is a feature not a bug, to give more power to what you called "experts".

The bug is that this system was supposed to give them power and let them get away with it, hidden behind this "popular mandate". But even though people (just as planned) do not know or understand very well the european institutions, they did become aware that they were largely out of their control, and are increasingly dissatisfied with that.
Brexit was the result. If nothing changes, it is very possible that the union will collapse eventually because of that.

Cont.

Just Austria. Well, just Vienna. I guess I don't know how representative it is of the EU in general.
It's winter, but it's not that cold. Completely manageable. I walk around in t-shirt and jacket.

I for one don't approve, of the bug and of the feature.

And yes, the parliament as it is and the national governments are not to be trusted.
That's why the system should be changed to reduce their power and give it to the people. The more simple the system, the more control we will have over it. So if we have to have a representation, we should have only one, that we can mandate clearly, and that can act on it.

>Can someone explain to me what the trouble with the EU
Literally British autism.Most people in the EU are pro EU and don't even mind the free movement of people outside of Romanian sending waves of gypsies through Europe.The main problems are revolved around border security but outside of that a lot of countries want bigger integration and are ok with the European industrial complex.Also Benelux centralization is getting retarded as all the institutions are there,specially after the UK left.
After the UK left only Sweden and Finland might want to leave