When talking about the "victims of communism"...

Has it ever occurred to you that the people who actually deserved to die were communists themselves?

>those who committed crimes deserved starvation, forced labour and execution

>System in which your pesky hated neighbor can report you to local NKVD and they will put you in a black van named "Black Crow" and send to interrogation after which you will be assigned to work in Siberian Gulag for 10-20 years, there you will most likely die from scurvy because they don't feed you enough of vitamin c
>"b-but what if the neighbor was right about falsely reporting you???"
This was one of the most often reasons NKVD arrested you in Soviet Russia... because you neighbor could report you for selfish reasons and NKVD with the party would very eagerly arrest you...

Why does Veeky Forums always take the bait? There are no unironic tankies on this board.

These claims are on par with holocaust denial (which I'm sure you do). It's well established that Stalin and other high ranking members of the Soviet government purged the shit out of anyone they considered a threat to their position, including civilians who we're considered potentially treasonous. This was done either in kangaroo court at best, you usually just went missing.

>If that would be the case, communism would not be seen favourably by its present and former citizens.
>Alas, objective truth cannot be reconciled with your feels
If we were talking in person I might just beat the shit out of you. This is the most retarded statement I've ever heard, I cannot imagine that someone would actually believe this. We feared the secret police at all times. We we're constantly paranoid about being monitored. People who would speak out against something would literally just go missing. Fuck you kys

Show me those well established proofs

Thanks.

>

Because anticommunism has historically been a cause championed by the CIA and British intelligence service, who didn't let the fact get in the way of their narrative

>communism would not be seen favourably by its present and former citizens.
Oh, you mean young westerner tankie/commie sympathizers and old nostalgiafags who miss collectivally standing in massive lines for peace of bread, but at least "we were nr.1 world power one time in the world"???
Don't worry, here is Russia we have lots of these people, we call them "sovok" or "bydlo"

He did it openly dipshit

Way to just ignore the rest btw

Same can be said of holohoax victims.

Leningrad affair

>If that would be the case, communism would not be seen favourably by its present and former citizens.
It isn't. Thats why they revolted several times and constantly had nationalist seperatist movements. A few oddities waving a hammer and sickle flag isn't widespread public support.
>Alas, objective truth cannot be reconciled with your feels.
Considering your forwarded ideas about communism, I would parrot this.
>If you disregard cold war hysteria
Oh so they didn't have nukes, and the didn't have an ideology predicated on global expantion.
>and hysterical spergouts of Nazi remnants,
"Hysterical"
>there is nothing extraordinary about Communism
Apparently millions dead, gulags, shit economies and endless ideological indoctrination in the industrial age isn't particulary extraordinary.
>for better or for worse.
For worse, OP. For worse.
>It's just another modern political system
Whose adherents killed millions if "heroin dealers",
>better suited for some things than the others,
Like being disproves every single time.

>These claims are on par with holocaust denial
Where did said anything like holocaust denial?

the part where citizens of the soviet union considered their form of government favorably and that soviet communism was just another form of gov comparable to any modern gov, with its ups and downs balanced relatively close to western governments.

Holocaust denial is ten times more believable then this. A hundred times, maybe. The only people I can imagine give this any credit are those who've never been far off a university campus and swallowed the progressive sjw pill hard core where everyone and every religion/ ideology is equal and special.

>Those 80,000,000 people deserved to be murdered.

I call bullshit. What country are you from? In Eastern Europe, Poles and Baltics are the only nations which don't overwhelmingly miss the socialist period.

I'm from an Eastern European country, and I would say over 90% of people here hate capitalism and wish the Warsaw Pact was still around. Only Jewish oligarchs who made massive profits through exploiting the rest of the population sees any positive aspect to capitalism.

>It isn't.
Objectively wrong. You've obviously never talked to anyone from Eastern Europe.

Vast majority of Hungarians say life was better under socialism:

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/

Vast majority of Romanians say the same thing:

washingtontimes.com/news/2012/aug/30/struggling-romanians-yearn-for-communism/

Vast majority of former Soviet nations say the same:

news.gallup.com/poll/166538/former-soviet-countries-harm-breakup.aspx

>i know more about life under socialism than the people who lived under socialism

While skewed, thuroughly limited (in terms of methodology) polls and an article written by one former commie citizen who never actually grew up in the communist utopia are certainly impressive, im not convinced.
When we have mass graves remnants of gulags vastly more accounts of religious political and ethnic persecution and interestingly enough recorded instances where people in the relatively prosperous DDR riot over coffee shortages.
It the picture gets a little more real.

To put things into perspective I was a child in a shitty country once. I didn't know it was shit until I grew up and saw what was going on.

In Slovakia there's two communist parties and they get like 0.5% in the elections COMBINED. Nobody wants cuckmunism again.

>While skewed, thuroughly limited (in terms of methodology) polls
It's your prerogative to prove that world-renowned polling agencies like Pew Research and Gallup have a flawed methodology.

>and an article written by one former commie citizen who never actually grew up in the communist utopia are certainly impressive
Except she did. That's why she says "growing up under communism was the happiest time of my life."

>im not convinced
That's because you're so emotionally invested in your anti-communist narrative, you'll outright reject anything which contradicts it, even when that thing is scientific polling data. You'd rather keep believing in the narrative which feels good to believe in, than admit that you've been deceived, bamboozled, and manipulated by plutocrats to serve their agenda - contrary to your own self interest.

...

go drink some more, Vanya ;^)

>Don't worry, here is Russia we have lots of these people, we call them "sovok" or "bydlo"
You are dying out, liberashka scum. Russian people support the Soviet Union overwhelmingly, and young adults do so even more than on average.

>retarded slavs love socialism!

how is this supposed to convince me that its good user?

>Oh, you mean young westerner tankie/commie sympathizers

in the forward to Gulag Archipelago, its mentioned that the book was written first and foremost for Russians because Solzhenitsyn thought that they would choose to forget the horrors of communism and only focus on bullshit nostalgia and basically, exactly what you just described

>It's well established that Stalin and other high ranking members of the Soviet government purged the shit out of anyone they considered a threat to their position, including civilians who we're considered potentially treasonous.

The purges did exist. And several hundred thousand people were executed. Which was done because of unfortunate political circumstance:a premature retirement and death of Lenin, before the Communist party could transform from a revolutionary strike force into a governmental institution. What choice did Stalin really have in a situation of political anarchy and turmoil brewing than to reestablish order and hierarchy by political violence, to prevent internal conflicts and external weakness, if you think about it?

>These claims are on par with holocaust denial (which I'm sure you do).
Being a communist, I view Nazi regimes in a highly negative light. Certainly not because of my gorillions. Because Nazi regimes pursued extremely irrational, extremely unstable, and extremely unfavourable policies and goals, which resulted in massive failure and destruction for their people.
>If we were talking in person I might just beat the shit out of you.
Well, I'm not at all surprised. That's how brainlets argue after all. Glad to rustle your jimmies, chappie. Thanks for the pleasure.

>Being a communist
>pursued extremely irrational, extremely unstable, and extremely unfavourable policies and goals, which resulted in massive failure and destruction for their people.

lol

Communism was a massive failure. The USSR is totally dead, replaced with a capitalist oligarchy, and China is a state-capitalist export monster to the international system of free trade.

Let me guess, all Ukrainian and Kazakh peasants were rich kulaks, all poles were spies, all jews were part of a plot, all disagreeing communists were trotskist fascists, etc.

>It isn't. Thats why they revolted several times and constantly had nationalist seperatist movements. A few oddities waving a hammer and sickle flag isn't widespread public support.
A puppet state always hates its' master; I'm talking about sovereign communist states of course.
>Considering your forwarded ideas about communism, I would parrot this.
It isn't about politics or opinions. It is about an objective claim that communism never enjoy popular support and always result in worst living conditions, which is objectively false.
>Apparently millions dead, gulags, shit economies and endless ideological indoctrination in the industrial age isn't particulary extraordinary.
No. Take gulags, for example. Two times less prisoners per capita than in modern America, that is including German POWs.
>Like being disproves every single time.
Communism is second most popular and powerful ideology today, and it retained major role constantly since its' inception. Clearly it's proven to be one of the most effective systems.

>numbers incarcerated
Only part of the picture. What about mortality rate? Or the rate of genuine convictions?

>The USSR is totally dead
Just like revolutionary France. Your point is?
> and China is a state-capitalist export monster to the international system of free trade
Yep. That was the idea.
>lol
no, U.

>Your point is?
youre just some dumb edgy kid LARPing as the bad guys to get a rise out of people and are an intellectually shallow mental midget.

It's hilarious watching /leftypol/ types that would laugh at Boomers and the elderly reminiscing about the '50s, and snark about how "well it was good if you were a middle class straight white male *snort*" going full UM ACKCHOOALLY over east euro nostalgia for communism

>Or the rate of genuine convictions?
"Genuinity" of convictions is arbitrary. The only objective scale of "imprisonment terror" is, obviously enough, prisoners per capita.
>What about mortality rate?
Correlates with mortality rate of an unindustrialized backwater of Russian society.

Oh, stop it with petty insults, chappie. I sincerely want to know how do you logically go from "a political system snuffed out in this one country once for a time" to "it's all around wrong and disproven"

You prove that some amerimutt agencies are more reliable than actual election results here in EE. I'll wait.

>make a post basically announcing what a edgy little cunt you are
>get called out
>"n-no take me and muh stupid meme ideology I dont even understand seriously!"

lol

If you want to back out of discussion you're losing via some LOL's and ad hominems, I'm not going to stop you.

On a side note, that's all that was coming from you: ad hominems. I was merely calling it out, as well as your enraged hysteria. Guess it makes me edgy. Ok

>false convictions is arbitrary
No, its not.
>the only objective measure is prisoners per capita
if we're starting from your above assumption, then it turns out that US citizens simply commit more crimes, not that they're being imprisoned as part of a terror campaign
>correlates with the mortality rate of an unindustrialized backwater of russian society
Strange how the Katorgas enjoyed a lower mortality rate than the gulags, then.....

Im not losing the argument. You didnt even make one, you just came here like the attention deprived child you are and posted a le epic troll post, and now that Im treating you like the child you are, you are throwing a temper tantrum and demanding you be treated like a big boy. Heres a tip, stop being a clown person and maybe people will stop treating you like a buffoon

>No, its not.
Yes, they are. Convictions are only false within a certain legal system.
>it turns out that US citizens simply commit more crimes, not that they're being imprisoned as part of a terror campaign
Well. What does it mean "to be imprisoned for a crime?" It simply means to be legally accused for it via some code of laws and justice and be incarcerated. Soviet prisoners were legally accused and incarcerated via Soviet code of laws, American prisoners were legally accused and incarcerated via American code of laws.

The only way we can legally compare the rate of incarceration, without arbitrarily taking sides, is via comparing prisoners per capita.

>When talking about the "victims of Holocaust", why does it never occur to people that the victims may have completely deserved it? Weird how nobody under Nazi germany ever committed crimes, according to anti-communist propagandists - every single person was an innocent victim, even bankers and heroin "artists".
Shoooo totalitarian.

>convictions are only false within a certain legal system
So you admit that the Soviet legal system was totally reprehensible, and caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Good.

>So you admit that the Soviet legal system was totally reprehensible, and caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people. Good.
I have expressed earlier , that Stalin's terror was an unfortunate event, of course. Please, elaborate how did you come to your conclusion, though.

>an unfortunate event

Yes. If Lenin would rule 5-10 years more, the USSR would be significantly better off, which is why Stalin's terror and consequent political structure of the USSR is unfortunate.

>Vast majority of Hungarians say life was better under socialism:
>pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2010/04/28/hungary-better-off-under-communism/

Nice try, faggot. Maybe next time you should read your own links.

>In no other Central or Eastern European country surveyed did so many believe that economic life is worse now than during the communist era.

>convictions are only false within a certain legal framework
Excuse me, how is the distinction between banning dissent and punishing property and violent crimes "arbitrary"?
>incarceration rate
The higher american incarceration rate is explained by a higher prevalence of violent crime and drug use in america. The incarceration rate does not necessarily have to do with government policies in the us, which is something that cannot be said for soviet russia.
This is also not taking into account that gulag conditions were wirse than both american and tsarist conditions.
>the red terror was an unfortunate event
The red terror involved not just "stabilizing the government", but a paranoid crusade cracking down on any and all dissent, perceived or not.

>you are and posted a le epic troll post, and now that Im treating you like the child you are
If people argue with reasoning and arguments, I always respond with my own reasoning and arguments. If a person go ad hominem and hysteria, like you did, I respond in kind.

I do consider that I trolled you good, ad I'm not sure why you're disappointed, considering you went "lower" yourself to begin with.

Most of the "victims of communism" were Jewish anarchists

If Lenin would rule 5-10 years more USSR would still be complete garbage.

But Stalin fixed it

Why do you ignore my post?

>stalin "fixed" it
He continued Lenin's education and healthcare policies, and his role in the five year plans is vastly overstated. That shit was mostly handled by gosplan (an organization that was created by lenin, mind you, not stalin). Furthermore, his dumbass purges served only to weaken the red army and rack up casualties in the first few months of barbarossa.

>Excuse me, how is the distinction between banning dissent and punishing property and violent crimes "arbitrary"?
Distinction isn't. Justification is.
>a higher prevalence of violent crime and drug use in america
In other words, by whatever the American criminal justice system considers punishable offence, and American society pushes people to do.
>The red terror involved not just "stabilizing the government", but a paranoid crusade cracking down on any and all dissent, perceived or not.
One comes in hand with the other. Relative to a failure of a government authority, that is beneficial.

-->

> That shit was mostly handled by gosplan (an organization that was created by lenin, mind you, not stalin)
Remind me who abolished NEP
>purges are responsible for Barbarossa meme
Did Poles, Dutch, Danes, Belgians, French, Anglos and Yugoslavs also purged their military? Since Huns lost more men in first 40 days of barbarossa than in the entire 1.9.1939-21.6.1941 period

Socialism doesn't work. Marxism doesn't work. Communism doesn't work. No version of them works and never will.

Remove yourselves from the gene pool.

>justification is
The justification for jailing and/or executing hundreds of thousands if citizens because of perceived dissent is incredibly poor and unecessary. Especially when they are jailed in conditions worse than those in the US and even under tsarist russia. Stalin allowed the purges to get way out of hand, that is not "unfortunate" and that clearly makes those people falsely punished victims of communism.
>did they also purge their military
Irrelevent, if you could read you would see that my point was stalin's brainless purging of his military led to hundreds of thousands more soviet casualties than necessary.

I bet you think that free healtcare is Marxism

Name a single competent high ranked officer that got purged and why he was competent.

>The justification for jailing and/or executing hundreds of thousands if citizens because of perceived dissent is incredibly poor and unecessary.
There is more people in America who consider American Justice system unjust and ineffective, than people in Russia who consider Stalin's. So why exactly, again, objectively speaking, one but not the other is "poor and unecessary"?

No I think it's incredibly stupid, ineffective and expensive.

good goy

Tukachevsky, the man who literally invented the concept of deep battle. The purging of most of the marshals and generals of the army cannot also be overstated.
How, exactly, does america having a poor justice system mean that soviet russia's is better? Why can't both populations of people be said to be victims? You realize that the US isn't the only capitalist country on earth, right? The fact that you think that supposed dissent, based solely on hearsay, is enough to send someone to a gulag with worse conditions than tsarist prison camps, but a man cannot be jailed for stealing bread, is retarded. Supposed dissent does not pose any threat to the establishment, unless you're some sort of paranoid retard like stalin. Punishing people for it is therefore wholly unecessary and cruel.

*good, not better

>the ukrainian farmers deserved starvation, they should've fed the urban russians before their own kids

Tukachevsky is responsible for overextension of the Red army tank corps which resulted in extreme amount of outdated equipment in 1941, not to mention Red army lacked logistics so most units in 1941 didnt even had fuel and ammo.
Tuchachevsky is also responsible for cult of the offensive, which caused huge losses in 1941. People dont like to face it, but Tuchachevsky´s ideas were adopted, Triandafillov is also more responsible for deep battle than Tuchachevsky.

>tukachevsky is responsible for the overextension of the red army tank corps
And? Battles On the russian front were won or lost based on the tanks, not the infantry themselves.
>cult of the offensive
Offensive actions against the germans failed due to poor coordination among the soviet forces, which is more the fault of the purged general staff and stalin's own interventions in the fighting of the war than anything else.
>Triandafilov was more responsible for deep battle than Tukachevsky
No, he wasn't.

>And? Battles On the russian front were won or lost based on the tanks, not the infantry themselves.
tell me, do you think its a good idea to invest huge amount of resources into the tanks that will be outdated before the next war comes and you will loose them due to the lack of fuel and ammo?
>Offensive actions against the germans failed due to poor coordination among the soviet forces, which is more the fault of the purged general staff and stalin's own interventions in the fighting of the war than anything else.
Yeah, because there is no point in making any defence lines, no mines and everything you need is to push, right? Are you Grigory Kulik?
>No, he wasn't.
Read his books before you post another bullshit.