AltHist Thread: WW1 Germany Victory, What Would WW2 Look Like?

I'm saying they stayed put at the Magonel line and focused on Russia first, you said the opposite.

I'm thinking the Alternate WW2 would look like this, with Germany plus her Eastern European puppets, Italy, Greater Sweden, Free Ireland, Bordeaux France, the Ottomans plus their Gulf clients, Nationalist China, The United States of America plus Latin American puppets, and Brazil Vs. Fascist Britain (ruled by Mosley and the BUF) plus her Dominions (which have varying degrees of loyalty to the empire), Fascist Russian Empire (lead by Admiral Kolchak and the whites), Iran (puppeted by Britain), and the Japanese Empire plus their Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere and Thailand.

Who will win?

Thoughts?

I think the US would be extremely wary of Germany establishing a greater european "empire" like that.
Let alone fighting against Britain; I don't know that Ireland would fight them either.
As much hate as there is/was people really tend to stick by people they speak the same language as?
Especially when theres larger, foreign threats rising, like this european "reich" or whatever you want to call it.. Also bolshevik Russia on the rise..
The English speakers would make a pact earlier, probably to stay quiet while this german-russian war exploded.. If they don't choose a side..

So you think a formerly isolationist USA would allow with a fascist Britain? I think not, especially since, in the TL, the USA stayed neural in ww1, so there was no force assimilation of german americans. With a strong germany community, speaking their mother tongue and living their culture, making up the second largest ethnicity in the US, i think they'd have cause to either join germany if provoked, stay neutral, or least likely, go into an anglo-germanic CW.

Also, Kolchak is not bolshevik but White army, monarchist/fascist.

every time i see the russian empire like this it brings a tear to my eye

so thick... so beautiful... :')

Here's another map of the Second Great War.

Some changes:
I differentiate the main war, from the pacific because I don't believe the USA, being more isolationist in the TL would embargo Japan for its foreign policy, so as a result, Japan invades European holdings in the Pacific and leaves Philippines and Pearl Harbor alone, so as to focus more on defeating a Nationalist China which will be more difficult to fight then OTL China in CW. I included the Dutch and Portugese on China's side because they had their shit stolen too.

Probably the main war will finish, and taking it's oppertunity, the nips will seize British Malaysia, Singapore, PNG, and parts of Russian Siberia leading to the US and Germany supporting Nationalist China against very powerful Japanese Empire and EACPS starting a Cold War between the west and the "Bamboo Curtain".

What do you guys think?

Interesting thread, but why do you take it for granted that Austria-Hungary would collapse?

who would be president of the USA in the TL? anglophiles like our world, or the republicans who said screw you guys, I'm going home like hoover?

rooseveldt was a ivy league wishes he was british wannabee aristocrat, his crew would never abandon Britain. ever.

Because if you actually seriously believe AH was gonna survive into the 20's you are retarded

Because their war goals were to puppet or annex Serbia, puppet Montenegro, puppet Romainia and possible Ukraine, while no federating or at the very least making their rails one standard or impose German as the nation language. IDK you think they'd survive? Tell me where you think theyd fit in in my scenario?

Thanks for the interest!

there was far too much factionalizing in court, and everyone was at each others throats. they couldnt keep thier shit together long enough to keep the country going.

Fuck all of you

hey bro, my family ran the fuck out of the country after the old man completely lost his marbles from being both gaslighted by his servants who were tired of being raped raw on a daily basis, and the nobles that thought they would make a better emperor who killed his wife and were poisoning him slowly with arsenic and other substances.

t. Ameriblob

What on earth makes you think that?

Inevitability of A-H dissoluting is retarded Wilsonian theory pushed mostly by Anglos and Americans, at least back then. Even French weren't that retarded.

>while no federating
What about the United Austrian States concept though?
>or at the very least making their rails one standard
Really? Didn't know that. Why didn't they have a standard in the first place?
>or impose German as the nation language
Didn't they push Germanization like Imperial Germany in its French/Polish/Danish border regions?
>IDK you think they'd survive?
Yes, if they weren't defeated and Germany was still supporting them I see no reason why they should simply collapse...
>Tell me where you think theyd fit in in my scenario?
They'd be the undisputed hegemon in the Balkans since Russia is out of the game and Italy doesn't dare to attack because of Germany
I'd think they'd just gradually modernize and adopt something akin to the USGA proposal
>there was far too much factionalizing in court, and everyone was at each others throats
Do you have something where I can read about that?
What?

look for stuff about the inner politics of the AH imperial court.

Couple of thimgs:

Isolationist candidates in style cuz no ww1

No GD due to no US war loans

No FDR because of no GD

A still German speaking, large minority which will vote against Anglophiles

I see it either being Hoover, as he is not blamed for GD, or maybe Al Frankin, sinced hed get the nomination if FDR didnt. I think the Germans will vote for Irish Frankin, instead of Anglo Hoover.

IDK, what do you think?

Woah bro, im ready to hear a counter argument. How would they survive and where wuld they be in this scenario.

maybe there would have been a "german" candidate come forward. like a big son of one of the big clans of Brauns, schillingers, or kleins from the midwest that ran shit out there.

I think it would have been Hoover, someone from the democrat political machine, a german, a tammany hall type irish from the northeast, or some old school blue dog democrat.

Lel sorry, I wanted to be funny
But my argument is simply that I see no reason why it should collapse. If the Austro-Hungarian army was undefeated in the field, Germany stood strong and was able to support Austria, why shouldn't the armies be able to simply crush any separatists?

Interesting, my only concern is that Germany will be trying to prop up their Eastern European puppets, expand their colonies into the Belgian Congo, propping up the Ottomans, and on top of that also propping up the austro-hungarians. This all seems like a lot to me and it's going to have to falter at one point or another.

Also the United States of Greater Austria was a plan championed by Franz Ferdinand who has we all know was in a grave at this point. Archduke Franz Joseph was more conservative and old-fashioned so it's doubtful he would jockey for this plan. But I'm curious to know did the next in line of succession state that he liked the USGA plan? What would Archduke Carl think?

Yeah I learned in the Great War YouTube channel a video that Austria-Hungary use several different rail standards from Serbian to Romanian to Austrian to Hungarian. That's why they could move their troops around so quick. If they were to survive they have to correct this for the next War.

I don't know if they pushed it did they in our time line? If so it didn't work very well in our time line right.

thanks for the feedback and get back to me I will admit my borders for Germany and place of the austro-hungarian Empire are slap shot at best LOL.

took the words right out of my mouth. Good job! I believe there are, but I can't find any examples of Big Time German politicians from the Midwest before World War I do you know of any so that I can use them in the scenario?

USA and Russia would industrialize, destroy any power opposing them ending with the same result.

>This all seems like a lot to me and it's going to have to falter at one point or another.
I think it would be possible if no war would erupt and the respective allies would work together.
>But I'm curious to know did the next in line of succession state that he liked the USGA plan? What would Archduke Carl think?
I don't know, but I think it would be a logical step of reforming the empire
>I don't know if they pushed it did they in our time line? If so it didn't work very well in our time line right.
I don't know about it either, that was a question

They would, but America wouldn't be able to destroy a united Europe, and why should they go to war if they could trade instead?
Same goes for Russia, plus they wouldn't be nearly as strong without their imperial possessions.

I dont think there were any that didnt change their names and lie like hell about being "dutchies". lots of hungarians changed our names and lost our heritage after the riots and attacks during and after WW1 in NJ.

but lets say, no USA in WW1= no anti-german/hungarian badshit, then we could use my faulty reasoning to go further out on the limb, and say maybe one of the big cattle/slaughter/mining/shipping/brewing/farming clans of midwestern germans would have had a son be ripe for national office by lets say mid 20's-early 30's? give or take a few years.

there wasnt a place or industry in those days in the midwest, where you didn't have a german running shit in some capacity. legal or otherwise.

question is wood Kolchak, The White Army, and tsarists have been able to industrialize Russia as the Reds were able to? Especially since Russian now no longer has industrial base of Belarus and Ukraine, does this mean that Russia industrializes in the interior or behind the Ural Mountains like what's Stalin did during the German invasion of Russia?

So we get a German president who wants to fight Anglo fascism. What would US anglos do? Would they be a fifth column? Would they revolt? Or would they in a twist ending have to assimilate quickly as to not a the enemy like exactly what happened to the Germans in our time line but topsy-turvy? If so LOL!

>Ottomans
Would collapse immediately under the strain of war. Their puppets will scatter and the Arabs will have their long overdue revolt.
>Ireland
Gets utterly rekt by Britain, no question
>Belgium
Fuck off Eurodisney
>China
Doesn't stand a chance against Japan. Since China seems to still have been Allied in WWI, they probably have no support during the warlord era and will be unable to resist a coalition of Indian, Russian and Japanese troops.
>Philippines
Japan steamrolls them even harder than last time.
>Africa
Hard to say. Italy and France will not stand a chance, as being the puppets in a war is never good for morale, but Germany could win in Central Africa depending on Commonwealth and German investment.
>Americas
Canada is going to get it hard. It's wide frontline and US isolationism might buy it some time, though.
>Europe
Without Finnish support in the North, that front is all but doomed. Depending on the season, the Russians might just yet eke out a victory there.
>Iceland and Greenland
Were invaded for a reason. The UK will need a bridge to Canada, and if Churchill did it, Mosley will have no scruples doing it too.

Anyway, this is how I assume your war will go after six to eight months, given a fascist Allies and Imperial German Axis.

Damn, forgot map

>fascist Allies and Imperial German Axis
I love this thread, cool as hell scenario

I will add Iceland and Greenland to the scenario. Thank you for making the map and taking so much interest! Who would win in the end? Germany and US are obviously getting nukes first right?

I think it would end up with a whole bunch of rhetoric like "we fought them to free ourselves from the eternal anglo, now lets free the po little englishmens dat dindu nuffin wrong from them evil fascists!!! t. rich as fuck german from midwest". people love some good old fashion jingoism and patriotic fervor. as my aunt the whore said "get a mans dick hard enough, and he will do anything for his nut".

Thank you my friend!

I don't know if I decided this in the beginning of the scenario but say that during World War 1 Afghanistan was persuaded by the German emissaries to do a Jihad against the British Empire do you think that would have made any real progress? Like would part of British Raj be independent or part of Afghanistan or would nothing have happened? And say that it's intervention on Afghanistan's part did happen would they be in this war or would being surrounded by Persia, Russia, and the British Raj dissuade them not to commit suicide?

So more of a Iraqi freedom vibe. Interesting, that would keep the USA together. Good old granny lol

Also, India might be facing a resistence movement, supported by Germany and lead by Chandra Bose...

All depends on the Russian front. If General Winter does his job, the Germans will as before be stopped at Moscow, and I assure you the Imperial German command will be not nearly as flexible or modern as the Nazis were, while Russia will be not too different from the Soviet Union, if lesser in strength due to the loss of the western territories. With a defeat at Moscow, the Russians earn themselves another year, enough to bring the Chinese front down to a virtual end where the Japanese and the Raj can take care of the situation by themselves. This furthermore frees up Commonwealth troops which would be redeployed to either Africa or the Middle East.
Africa itself is easy pickings for Britain in both cases, since as soon as North Africa is dealt with the Royal Navy can blockade the coasts and trap the Germans on the Dark continent.
The Near East will fall along with the Russian front, as without considerable German assistance the British, Persians and Arabs will split it among themselves. The Ottomans will either retreat to the Kurdish mountains or simply collapse due to internal factors.
The Americas are the US' playground.

I heavily doubt nukes will be decisive, since the Germans will hardly bother with nuclear physics, and Britain is highly unlikely to develop one, so Roosevelt will never be spurred to get it first. The Germans would probably get them first if they tried, though.

I think if Germany is stretched so thin, the bomb would give them an advantage so they would be incentivized to build it.

Also, with it's Eastern European puppets the German front to Moscow be a lot shorter in this timeline then it would be that the Nazis had so when they make it to Moscow quicker in this before winter? And wouldn't that make it more likely they would take it? Especially if Russia is weaker in this timeline?

And would British Raj really be able to invade China successfully since the Himalayas and other mountain ranges are between the two territories? A couple that with a possible Rebellion from Chandra Bose supported by the Germans...

I agree the ottomans are screwed. But wouldn't American troops be used like in World War II in our timeline to back up the front in North Africa? Could that turn that arena in the favor of the Germans and Italians? Actually overall what would be America's strategy in this war? Obviously they would be going for Canada but that can't take them too long... Then they would have to go and take British possessions of the Caribbean (Nicaragua has got British Honduras down as does Brazil with British Guiana) but when that is inevitably finished quite soon will the Americans be fighting to take back Greenland and Iceland and to secure British colonies in Africa?

Another thing we never thought about the Maritz rebellion? Did it secede in making a free south africa? If so that could be a base for US intervention in Africa.

>Also, with it's Eastern European puppets the German front to Moscow be a lot shorter in this timeline then it would be that the Nazis had so when they make it to Moscow quicker in this before winter?
Yes, but on the other hand the Russians have a much shorter path from Moscow to the front as well, and without the Communists taking power the disasters that plagued Russia and the isolation brought on by their ideology would never happen, leaving it as probably stronger in this scenario than IRL. Contrast that with a Germany more focused on keeping the European order and maintaining its colonial empire than developing radical new ideas for warfare and you get a much slower push from the Germans than IRL, with Russia probably managing to do some pushing back at first.
Also keep in mind that a fascist Russia means fascist militarism, so the crushing defeats of Barbarossa are going to be more akin to the narrow victories of Fall Blau.
>And would British Raj really be able to invade China successfully since the Himalayas and other mountain ranges are between the two territories? A couple that with a possible Rebellion from Chandra Bose supported by the Germans...
The Himalayas separate India from Tibet, not China proper. Burma, Indochina and Hong Kong would all serve as inroads through the south.
The fascists would've most likely shot Bose and his ilk before they got the chance to do anything drastic.

>But wouldn't American troops be used like in World War II in our timeline to back up the front in North Africa?
Not if they're mired in Canada AND facing the Royal Navy, which was their ally in our timeline. OTL North Africa was only saved by German intervention, and was weeks away from collapse after only three months of fighting.

>but when that is finished quite soon will the Americans be fighting to take back Greenland and Iceland and to secure British colonies in Africa?
I'll give it a year or so.

>Maritz rebellion?
Too early to have a major effect.

Ok fair enough.

What I'm getting at is, is this war lost to the CP?

Not if they win in Russia. A knockout of a major player like that early in the war frees most of the German war effort to go to the Mediterranean, which would be catastrophic for Mosley. While the Allies could still pull off victory in China, with Europe lost it is only a matter of time before Britain is isolated and Japan is defeated by the US. At that point, the war is lost for the Allies.

If, however, Russia holds as described, the sluggish Germans will fail to keep up with the modern fascist nations and will become entrenched in Europe, relying on dubious loyalties of of the rest of Europe to hold its own (France will not fight for Germany forever if it has no victories to show for it). This depends mostly on the characters in charge, as someone like Willy will most likely bungle things up, while Hindenburg might yet save Germany from total defeat.

Willy would probably have fallen to coup early, due to ineptness.

Another thing, Italy had something like 80,000 troops in Abyssinia during ww2, and supposing that is the same here and Musolini isnt in power and as a result hasn't had the chance to feel the command of the Italian army with his friends that's ruining it do you think that they could hold their own against numerically weak forces in the British colonies surrounding it?

Also do you think Britain will open the war with a Normandy style Invasion of France and putting in power the French fascists and probably being only stopped at the Rhine River?

Wouldn't America be able to outproduce Britain and challenge the Royal Navy? I figure with the Imperial German Navy + Italian Navy + French Navy + US Navy the Royal Navy wouldn't have it too easy?

Also, would Brazil play any relevant role for the CP?

...

Source for that citation

I think you are right, the US navy just keeps growing, while Britannia would stay outclassed and out numbered.

Also, I had Brazil join just to take British Guiana and maybe some Caribbean islands, but they likely won't do much else.

I edited it. What do you think?
(btw thanks for all your help and interest)

What happened to France?

I assume GB would open the war with a Normandy style blitzkrieg on France and they would overthrow the gov and put Action Francais in power. Do you think it is possible?

No, not for these reasons:
-France's fate under German domination is likely shit, but far better than in WW2. Possibly they aren't even that much up for revenge, depending on how Germany treats France.
-The (successful) 1944 landings were only possible due to America's economic and military support, and there Germany occupied the whole of Europe and lead a probably even worse war than in this alternative timeline.
-the US doesn't only not help, but is on Germany's side
-the Imperial Germany Navy is an actually serious rival to the RN, unlike the Kriegsmarine

So then, does Sea Lion happen?
>US on German side
>GB at war with US...

Are you retarded?

Not until Russia and the Royal Navy are defeated.
But I really thing Germany + European allies/vassals and the US are the stronger combination than UK & Russia.

Here is another version of the map. This one shades the colonies of the nations. IDK why...

If France were to fall, it's colonies would most likely go with it given that British armies are only a few miles away in Libya and they cut off from their homeland. Some colonies bordering Germany might form a "free" France but given that even OTL the Free French had bad relations with their allies it wouldn't amount to much. Otherwise it looks pretty good.

Again with this shit

Ok guys, let's shif the convo to post war.

Two scenarios

Axis Victory

Central powers victory

Borders, maps, etc.

??

...

what is this?

looks like a map if germany won WW1

Yeah, it's a map I did of victorious Central Powers. PoD is Sweden joining the war in July 1914 (they nearly did), later Ethiopia and Afghanistan join the Central Powers at the very end (also things that almost happened)

A cool map I found

Did Sweden really consider joining the CP? And were they even relevant in 1914 anymore?

Poles, Czechs, Ukrainians would likely revolt against Germany as soon they would get the chance.
CP victory in WW1 meant they would be subjected to brutal exploitation

So what brutalities happened to them under Prussian/German occupation since the 18th century? What brutalities happened to them under German occupation from 1915-1918 in WW1?

Pogrom of Kalisz, Kulturkampf, Polish border strip, Forced Germanization, Slave labor, Rugi Pruskie, Torture of Wrzesnia schoolchildren, mass looting of Poland and so on and on

>The teachers responded with detention and corporal punishment but the teachers who did corporal punishment where put on trail by Whilhim and convicted and sentenced to between five to ten years imprisonment.[2]
>Whilhim
>Torture
lmao

Germany would be in a very weak position post WW1, it would rule over an extremely hostile population exploiting it without offering anything in return like Soviets with their communism.
Opponents of Germany would find it easy to support insurgency in Poland,Ukraine or Balkans.
WW2 would likely start there with German colonial authorities massacring population to stop uprising.

The Germ hated pure Polish children, and in the end God has laid out his punishment

I learned it from a monsieur Z video that during the war the monarchy and nobility where highly loyal to Germany in the Central Powers going as far as being the country who relayed all Telegraph messages for Germany. And I would guess they want to get Finland back after losing it from the Russians. This map is pretty interesting where is it from? I noticed that Belgium is annexed as the plan was either to annex it or take a slice off of France (the coal and industrial region) and give it to belgium to make it a very wealthy and Powerful client state.