Now that the dust has settled, which program is better, SS or SL?

Now that the dust has settled, which program is better, SS or SL?

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SS if you work for a living and also on top of that, go to school.
SL if you got the time for it.

Actually, they both practically the same. Its a good place to start before going off into some other program that interests you or one that you made yourself

Then dust has settled? Bitch the nuclear fallout is still being created

Basically the same thing except SS has power cleans and SL has Rows. 5x5 is volume work, it's not for strength. You might be able to progress if you've still got noobgains left but once you're intermediate, you'll have to switch to 3x5 or do another program altogether to be able progress.

>(you can do isolation excersizes as well as hitting compound lifts 5x5 for strength)

greyskull

I started SL after years of splits. I think imma switch the squats to 3x10.

It was longer than I had expected, more than 1 1/2 hs lifting with exercises.

SS is better. Power cleans are more fun than rows. Besides that the programs are the same once the weight gets heavy.

SS is infinitely better. There is a book about it for fucks sake that goes into an insane amount of detail.

SL is a marketing campaign, not a strength program. do not do it

SS.
But GSLP is best

Wrong.

Yes, you are.

ICF 5x5

Planning on doing 3 months of SL then 3 months of Reg Parks. Thoughts?

Just a reminder that the person in OPs picture is not Rip

man rippetoe was huge back in the day

power cleans > rows

All linear progression routines are good enough and more or less the same, so long as the three common mistakes are avoided. 1) Don't overeat, the GOMAD suggestions are for teenagers trying to get on football teams, nt skinny fat neet adults, 2) Don't stay on that shit for more than 6 months. They're there to teach you fundamentals of lifting, not replace a well balanced routine long term and 3) fall for the no direct arm work meme. You know you want big guns, so hit them hard at the end of your workout.

Google is your friend newdyel.

neither. MAX OT ftw.

Faggot.

That's Roger Estep, m8. Rip was fairly ripped in the 70s though.

That's Estep you idiotic motherfucker

>do SS for NINE MONTHS
>my legs are RIPPED
>arms and chest so so

I fell for the SL 5x5 meme. Here are my results after 1 year.

this. much harder to learn, but much more satisfying to execute.
definitely an alpha exercise

When compared to SS, SL is objectively shit.

ICF is even worse.

Greyskull LP

THIS IS WHAT REAL WOMEN WANT ! NOT TWINKS WITH 'ABS' !

>look mom I posted it again! Im le cool trollman!

Nice argument dyel.

Who cares? Just do one or the other for 3 months then switch to an intermediate level workout routine.

while harder than rows, they're not hard to learn at all. you already know how to deadlift, other than that it's a jump with extended arms and a catch in the rack position.

sl 5x5 by far.

>I lift for 3 months but pose as an expert, the post

>I'm projecting: the post

SL is a meme

It is Roger Estep. Supposedly everyone knows that's Estep and only post that pic to pretend to be retarded but you never know

I did SL for 6 months and all I got was an obscene ass on a skinntfat body

But what would be an intermediate routine? All routines on the sticky are just SS with variations on rep scheme.

Fuck both, Reg Parks 5x5 is king

Holy shit Rip was jacked back in the day!! Guess squats and oats do work

Both programs are designed for beginners. Anyone would have to move on at intremediate level. That's the whole point.

If I wanted a meme I'd stick a microphone in your mother's vagina since the last thing that came out was a joke.

same fucking shit

SS is a much better book and Rippetoe is a decent guy

Mehdi is a piece of shit

>doing anything but greyskull your first year

u mad

you look great, what the fuck?

lifting stats plox
what's the point of lifting if you can't lift heavy weights?
otherwise stick to a calisthenics/aesthetics routine... why hate on the program that gets high weights in the air?

You look awesome!

What kinda strength gains?

Literally fine except you ate too much

>mfw dyels actually think the difference between all this cookie cutter beginner strength routines is worth discussing.

None of these routines should last more than 6 months unless you're doing it wrong, or a very genetically gifted individual, which 99% of you aren't.
6 months is fuck all in the grand scheme of strength. And its even less in the grand scheme of looking good.
Nobody who was sedentary beforehand will look good in 6 months. Bear in mind the timescales claimed on CBTs and progress threads are massively estatted because people are scared of being told >3 years for this. Add on top things like "only training seriously for 6 months(I lifted for 5 years prior tho but it wasn't serious because I say it wasnt)" So it creates a vicious circle of estats (pic is my 6 month progress)

List of things in importance, discounting steroids, and genetics which is not worth worrying about because its not changeable.

1. Diet
1. Effort/discipline*
1. consistency
1. progressive overload
BIG GAP
43. Routine.

*this means actually pushing yourself in the gym. So many beginners hold themselves back because of perfect form or other bullshit, or they are just scared of failure, and it stops progress fast.
A beginner could use any routine, and provided those important factors are met, they will make great progress.

Is BBC a joke?

Bruh, you look fine, go on a cut and add flyes and lateral raises as accessories.

the volume of sl is a bit excessive and rows are bullshit compared to cleans

do ss+ arms so you don't look like a faglord trex for a year or so then move on to TM or some bodybuilding shit when you stall

Even the Starting Strength instagram posted this recently with the caption 'Remember when Rip was Roger Estep?'

>Even the Starting Strength instagram
How autistic do you need to be to follow a meme routine instagram?

I think an uncoached unsupervised beginner would be retarded to do either. They're both way too taxing on the CNS which will cause the beginner to suffer severe injury when their form breaks down under heavy load.

I suggest not conventional deadlifting at all until you are highly experienced. Instead do block pulls and rdls.

Hit all your body parts twice a week.

An ideal beginner program might look like

>squat 3x7
>block pull 3x7
>rdl 3x7
>pull up 3xF
>one arm db bent row 3x7
>db ohp hammer grip 3x7
>bench press 3x7 day 1
>lightweight bench press wide grip 3x7 day 2
>situps 1xF

You need more work you can add curl variations, power cleans or high pulls, dips and once you get strong add in some conventional deadlifts.

Don't listen to fat non aethetic powerlifter meme routines unless you aspire to be competitive lifter there's no point in training the big lifts like that even then it's highly questionable.

I respectfully disagree with that. A beginner should be deadlifting and if they can't figure out

>hurr durr don't round my back

then they weren't gonna make it anyways.
Deadlift is the most, in my opinion, important exercise for beginners. It creates the foundation for isolated exercises.
Deadlifts don't need to start at 135, but they do need to start when you step into the gym.

> It creates the foundation for isolated exercises
It creates the foundation for a beginner lifting weigh more than they can with correct form without having any way to realize it as it happens when they unpredictably fatigue under heavy weight as the body is not a machine and has a high degree of variability

not only are block pulls and rdls far, far FAR more beginner friendly but they'll also form an objectively superior foundation of strength with them should they feel the need to chase your inferior memelifts later.

Eh, considering how beginner some people are i'm gonna say you're right, but..

>deadlifts are a meme lift

wtf dawg

They aren't better for anything. Block pulls build a stronger back and RDL's build stronger legs. Not only is this the case but you'll have more energy to go harder on all your other lifts.

Conventions Deadlift is to Block pull + RDL as Trap Bar Deadlift is to Barbell Back Squat + Conventional Deadlift. An inferior hybrid lift. And it's downright dangerous and stupid for unsupervised beginners that's only pervasive due to competitive lifting culture faggotry.

gotcha, out of curiosity what's a good program or split for an intermediate lifter?
>nice dubs

Greyskull with accessories.

You're a beginner until you can customize a routine to your specific needs.

SS with rows instead of power cleans, I'm serious. SL has quite a few problems:

1) 5x5 will be too much volume for most novices after a few months, you'll just end up stalling way sooner. I know Mehdi recommends to switch to 3x5 after a while, but then I don't see the point in doing 5x5 in the first place, just start with 3x5.
2) The progression scheme and loading are completely retarded. Mehdi says that EVERYONE should start with the empty bar and then everyone is supposed to use the exact same weight progression, regardless of demographic. SS has a much, much better system, the starting weights and progression actually allows for individual variation.
3) SL stays exactly the same for the entire program, meanwhile SS has 3 different phases, depending on your training experience. Somebody who has been lifting for 1 week isn't going to use exactly the same program as someone who has been lifting for 5 months, even though they're both ''novices''

The only disadvantage of SS is power cleans. They're a great exercise, but far too technical, and considering how many novices screw up even the simple exercises, having them do power cleans is pretty stupid. Also, rows are much better for back hypertrophy (which is what most novices want) compared to cleans, which are better for explosiveness (which most novices don't give a shit about).

This man gets it. Good man.

mehdi argues that everyone should start on empty bar because form, though. especially since his target demographic is literal high school children who stumble across his app on the app store, and other skinnyfats/lardos whose knowledge of fitness can be summarized by a picture of arnold schwarzenegger and an incomplete dietary facts list from the back of a hungry man

would it not make sense, as a beginner with some bulk, to start with empty bar then jump to a percentage of one rep max or fatigue weight and make progress from there?

t. dyel

Sounds good in theory, but doesn't work due to individual differences. For some people, starting with the empty bar on the bench will be a work set, so they won't get the benefit of form practice. And for others, the empty bar will be such a joke that they will end up wasting time and get demotivated. If Mehdi wanted to have people practice form, he should have done something like have them find their working weight on the first day (the way SS recommends) and then drop a certain percentage, so you both account for individual differences and still get the benefit of form practice. But in my opinion, this is unnecessary, SS already starts you slightly lower than you can actually do and you still get to practice form on warm ups.

Autism inbound.
What's SO and SL? Sorry for the dumb question

I agree with this guy 100%.

5x5 is far too much volume and you will stall out, you could just do 5x5 until you do and swap to 3x5, which I guess is fine, but you will spend weeks (or longer) stalling hard for no real reason.

If you're real worried about "muh arms" wack on some curls and 1 tricep exercise on Fridays. Worked for me very well until TM. (3x5 lifts were a little over 1/2/3/4 by the end and I was really satisfied).

One was the result of 30+ years of experience coaching thousands of newbies, trying all kinds of different set and rep schemes to find out which worked best.

The other is DEFINITELY not Starting Strength with nearly double the volume, it is NOT that, it is definitely based on Reg Parks 5x5, it's just a coincidence that there are 10x more similarities to Starting Strength, that's all. Oh and it also has rows instead of power cleans for babbies who piss their pants at the idea of doing a power clean.

That about answer it?

What about Ice Cream Fitness? Just started lifting and im considering between this and Starting strenght. I dont know shit. muscleandstrength.com/workouts/jason-blaha-ice-cream-fitness-5x5-novice-workout

Reg Park > SS > SL

Way to much volume for a natty beginner imo

Does GS still have power cleans?

I'm looking for a program that's focused on building more mass, but I don't want to give up power cleans. They're fun.

Not currently doing SS by the way.

>7 reps
is this a trole?

>doing a strength routine
no wonder all of you will stay fat and shitty

Blahas a fraud, but his routine is ok, its just a modified version of a beginner routine.
Pick any novice routine and stick with it a couple months. SL works fine, did not do SS, but the book is great for understanding lifts.

Why the fuck has no one responded to this? This post is the only intelligent thing worth reading in this whole thread

Beginners here would do well re-reading this a few times

in the book it recommends doing power cleans while warming up for deadlifts

or you can just do them as an accessory, the program is really workable and has heaps of room

Almost everything you say is retarded. Also you're and INTERMEDIATE before you typically make a tailored program

my goal desu

What's the problem with ICF if you eat enough and have the time?

lol you look like shit

this was my progress after 6 months on greyskull

it's probably the funnest routine out of SS, SL and GS imo. the AMRAP sets are really fun especially after you deload, and not having to deadlift on squat days is good too.

Replies to this post are surprisingly positive for Veeky Forums.

I honestly think every beginner should learn to do pullups or chinups and incorporate them in novice routines. Helps use the whole back and involves the whole body.
To me, Blaha added too many supplemental lifts that are redundant. That fucking hack.

...

Everyone on Veeky Forums that worked out left months ago, everyone here now is dyel or fatasfatfuck

Utter fucking broscience

Literally no where else on the internet does this fucking nonsense exist.

I disagree only with your statement that beginners shouldn't hold themselves back for perfect form. That is easy easier to correct from the start, in a beginner program, than when you're actually lifting heavy.

I mean, are you going to gain LESS from doing ICF over SL/SS, despite the accessories?
I see what you mean about redundancy, but surely all of that exercise isn't totally wasted.
I'm pretty dyel though, so that's why I'm asking.

It can produce unnecessary amounts of fatigue that will impede progression on main lifts, especially as your lifts go up.
And you should be getting maximal growth on a LP anyways, as you are progressively overloading the muscle every training session

So yes, it can lead to less total growth

Posting real rip

I'll look into it some more. If got decent lifts; 255lbs bench, 405 dl, 300 squat, and 200 clean. But I'm looking for a program that'll let me build some more mass.