The more I read about the sinking of Titanic...

The more I read about the sinking of Titanic, the more I am convinced that captain Smith was the main culprit behind both the sinking itself and the magnitude of disaster in terms of lost lives.

I know that there's tendency to whitewash both the White Star lines and Smith himself, and blame the inadequate marine practices of the time. However I don't think that this stands up to scrutiny.

First of all, captain Smith is to be blamed for repeatedly ignoring warnings about icebergs and steaming at almost full speed through the icefield during most adverse conditions imaginable (no moon, calm sea). Smith is often defended by claiming that all steamers at the time did the same, but that's just not true. Other steamers in the vicinity either slowed down considerably or stopped altogether for the night. This included the steamers of White Star's main competitors- Cunard and Norddeutscher Lloyd. When they did continued to steam, they took special precautions. When Cunard's Carpathia raced to pick up the survivors of Titanic, captain Rostom posted several teams of lookouts in order to avoid bergs and growlers. In best case scenario for Smith, it was White Star's pathological corporate culture that dictated taking such risks and gambling with the lives of passengers and crew. But still, it would be Smith's duty, as the line's most famous and sought after captain, to stand up for safety. There were no safety drills, the only scheduled lifeboat drill was cancelled by Smith himself because our captain wanted to attend another Sunday mass. Lack of lifeboat training later was a crucial factor on speed and efficiency at which lifeboats were lowered.

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After the ship hit the berg, loss of life could not be avoided owing to the inadequate number of lifeboats. However, under more decisive and confident leadership the disaster could have been of magnitude smaller. During the sinking Smith however was seemingly paralysed. Necessary orders were delayed or never issued at all. Crucial information was not relayed to crew and passengers (even some officers were unaware that something is wrong until they saw lifeboats lowered). Issued orders were vague. For example, Smith never explained whether "women and children first" meant that men should be allowed if there were no women and children present in vicinity. As a consequence lifeboats were often loaded with less than half of their capacity. Moreover, with so many people on board with experience in woodwork (ship carrier a shitton of working class migrants), attempts could have been made to make some makeshift rafts with available materials (tables, chairs, wooden decorations, lifevests, ropes). Time was short, but at least it was worth a try and could have saved dozens more people. Again, nothing was done in this direction, even though makeshift rafts weren't unheard of in marine history.

Tl;Dr Edward Smith was the worst captain possible. At least he went down with the ship he doomed.

This is the stupidest fucking conspiracy theory on this entire damned website

What's the conspiracy?

And where's the conspiracy?

I.hate Titanic things in general, but good post OP.

All congressional opposition to the Federal Reserve died on the Totanic

It was all standard protocol. Tragic as it all is you can't really blame one person, it's easy to look back now and scrutinize.
It was just that, an accident, a one in a million type accident. People panic, ect...

>It was all standard protocol

Actually, judging by what other ships were doing, it wasn't.

>All congressional opposition

By this you mean that one guy named Strauss?

OP here. Bumping with one more thing.

According to Lightoller's (most senior surviving officer) granddaughter, the ship did not stop immediately. Instead it continued to steam ahead for some time (and take in massive amounts of water), because no one on the bridge thought that the ship might be in danger. They later failed to report that to the commission, because White Star lines could have problems with obtaining insurance.

Reportedly Lightoller told that to his family many years later.

>According to Lightoller's (most senior surviving officer) granddaughter, the ship did not stop immediately. Instead it continued to steam ahead for some time (and take in massive amounts of water), because no one on the bridge thought that the ship might be in danger. They later failed to report that to the commission, because White Star lines could have problems with obtaining insurance.

Lightoller's granddaughter is a novelist who was promoting her book when she made all these claims. While this doesn't mean that they are wholly incorrect or that she was being malicious, it's important to take a harder look at them. A site for Murdoch breaks down her claims along with what may or may not have been true: williammurdoch.net/articles_18_Patten_steering_error.html

>Moreover, with so many people on board with experience in woodwork (ship carrier a shitton of working class migrants), attempts could have been made to make some makeshift rafts with available materials (tables, chairs, wooden decorations, lifevests, ropes)
Are you a sailor? Have you ever been in the North Atlantic. I have, and you have no idea how ridiculous that sounds. Making rafts out of tables while the ship is sinking?

There were no standard practices though, it was just whatever the captain thought was a good idea. Standardization of maritime safety only came about after the disaster, with the safety of life at sea (SOLAS convention) which is the foundation of maritime law governed by the UN today.

why would steaming ahead cause the ship to take on more water than if it wasn't moving

>However, under more decisive and confident leadership the disaster could have been of magnitude smaller. During the sinking Smith however was seemingly paralysed. Necessary orders were delayed or never issued at all.

I'm going to copy a comment here from Encylopedia Titanica because it addresses this myth more eloquently than I could:

I have to disagree that Captain Smith acted as if he were in a daze. In my view, he acquitted himself quite well after the iceberg.

He appears to have moved his ship closer to the shipping lanes where, presumably, distress rockets would have been more effective. Remember, it was 1912 and more ships were not radio-equpped than carried radio receivers. Prudent seamanship required getting Titanic within visual range of the shipping lanes before the flooding made moving the vessel impossible.

Smith made a thorough sounding of the ship, which early on gave the appearance to be floating on its pumps. Despite this reassurance, he ordered radio distress calls but not rockets. In effect, Titanic could manufacture an unlimted number of radio distress messages, the actual number only being cut off by the eventual foundering.

However, Captain Smith did not waste distress rockets on an empty horizon. One rule of pyrotechnic signals is not to shoot them until you see a potential rescue vessel. Californian was not seen immediately, and the decision to first use the Morse light after spotting that ship was prudent in view of the uncertainty of what was being seen. Had Californian been steaming across the horizon, I am sure that the firing of rockets would have begun immediately. Under the circumstances, however, Captain Smith showed good discipline in the use of his limited pyrotechnic resources. Once a rocket was fired, it could not be used again.

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E.J. Smith's biggest decision of the night was also the hardest of his life. It was to not do do the one thing that most people would think was imperative under the circumstances. Smith prudently chose not issue an "abandon ship" order.

He knew the panic that had resulted on other sinking ships and wanted to avoid it for as long as possible on Titanic. The 700+ lives saved may be in large part the result of maintaining order on the boat deck. This meant that only those people who were smart enough to go to the lifeboats...and who found their way (a problem for third class)...were available to board. Rather than wait, Smith got the boats down and saved those people he could. It was a gut-wrenching decision that saved lives even though it was counter-intuitive.

Captain Smith's shining hour came when he realized that he had to let die those who he could not save, and instead he had to concentrate on the few people that he had the resources to save. If he had acted from his heart--and ordered "abandon ship"--instead of from his head and logic, the chaos might have limited the survivors to no more than a lucky handful.

Smith's instructions for the lifeboats to "row for the light" (apparently Californian) was also smart leadership. The mission was impossible, the light was too far away for a lifeboat to reach, let alone reach and return. However, ordering the boats to row toward the light was an effective way of geting them away from the ship, away from the eventual panic as it foundered, and away from the scene of possibly 1,500 people dying on the water that he knew was coming. The captain undoubtedly knew the boats could not reach that light--he just wanted to give them a target to organize their efforts and prevent panic from occuring within the lifeboats as Titanic foundered.

Captain Smith wisely stayed within his cadre of officers and seaman. He knew that his very presence could be a catalyst for panic within the passenger accommodations. It was best that he face questions from passengers because everything he might say or do (or not say, or not do) could incite panic.

Smith worked closely with his officers and seaman and that helped keep order among the efforts to launch lifeboats. (Ask Captain Erik about how dangerous this procedure can be.) It was a stunning accomplishment of seamanship to launch 16 boats from the slanting decks...then rig and launch collapsibles...all without serious incident. Smith's presence seemed to instill confidence among men who by doing their duty knew they might be sacrificing their lives.

Given the limited options facing him, I believe that Captain E.J. Smith performed extremely well that night during the hours after the iceberg. His actions were not perfect, but at least he did not lower himself in the first lifeboat and run away like a captain a few years back

--

I will also add that Smith was involved in launching at least 6 lifeboats and towards the end was helping passengers find their way to the boats.

Also making a call for people with experience in woodwork to make makeshift rafts would have increased the panic to a countless degree. Then you have people fighting over tables and life vests in an attempt to save themselves or their families. Or people fighting over what few makeshift "rafts" could be made.

and then there's the question of how are you even going to get these "rafts" into the water. I don't know how high the freeboard (distance from water line to deck line) was on the Titanic, but it was probably 50 feet or more. You can't just wait until the ship has sufficiently sunk to the point where the water is on deck, because the ship sinking will cause an inescapable vortex.

Kek

Exactly. If the collapsible lifeboats couldn't remain upright in the water when they were on the waterline as the ship began its final plunges, how would makeshift rafts cobbled together from rope and tables not get sucked in, broken or even "just" tossed about like the collapsible that ended up upside down? And how are you going to get these makeshift table and chair rafts away from the ship, to avoid the suction?

timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1912/04/16/issue.html

>Moreover, with so many people on board with experience in woodwork (ship carrier a shitton of working class migrants), attempts could have been made to make some makeshift rafts with available materials (tables, chairs, wooden decorations, lifevests, ropes).

Why don't people just jump out at the last second when an airplane is about to crash?

As the first user said in response to the OP's posting, at least he went down with the ship unlike that cowardly Italian faggot in 2012 when the Costa Concordia partially capsized after hitting a sharp rock. Smith had fucking balls, he owned up to his mistake, he could have been a complete coward and just flee for his life. But no, he took it like a man. I'm a faggot myself, I don't have the courage like he does. I'm a washed up mess of a man.

Smith was truly an exemplary captain in terms of response to this disaster and in ensuring his officers and crew did not do what statistically crew does in ship sinking which is board the lifeboats themselves and make it every man for themselves. Whether or not he chose to "go down with the ship" rather than simply not surviving is debated, but at least he prioritized passengers over himself.

Fuck, the Wilhelm Gustolf's FOUR captains survived while 5,000 children died. The captains were the first motherfuckers on those lifeboats.

>As the first user said in response to the OP's posting, at least he went down with the ship unlike that cowardly Italian faggot in 2012 when the Costa Concordia partially capsized after hitting a sharp rock.


Or the captain of that Korean ferry who escaped while living hundreds of kids to die.

Fun fact: there are rumors that the captain was wanking himself at the time of disaster, instead of watching treacherous currents. Which is why he was only in his underwear.

One thing OP, Smith's record on other ships wasn't too good either. As an example, he was captain of the Olympic when she collided with the Hawke and resulted in pushing back the Titanic's maiden voyage from March to April due to repairs of the Olympic.

>living

leaving, fucking auto-correct.

>at least he went down with the ship unlike that cowardly Italian faggot in 2012 when the Costa Concordia partially capsized after hitting a sharp rock
While he probably evacuated earlier than he should have going down with the ship is not actually an expectation of a captain. But creating a maritime accident is a crime, and the captain almost always goes to jail even if he had nothing to do with what happened. Like the Exxon Valdez's captain was asleep when the disaster happened, but he still went to jail along with the mate on watch who actually crashed it.

>Are you a sailor? Have you ever been in the North Atlantic. I have, and you have no idea how ridiculous that sounds. Making rafts out of tables while the ship is sinking?

Admittedly I am not a sailor, but the possibility of making rafts was raised during the inquiry. There were reportedly ideal conditions. The sea was extraordinarly calm, while lots of stuff on board could float. Charles Joughin, one of survivors, actually reported that, while still on board, he saw swimmers clinging to floating chairs. Seeing that, he threw as much chairs as he could find into water.

The point is that rafts didn't need to be sturdy. The actual goal was not to let people die of hypothermia before Carpathia arrived onto scene, i.e. two hours after the sinking. Anything that floated while letting people sit on it without much contact with water would suffice.

By the way, Smith was told by radiooperators that Carpathia was due to arrive at around 4am. He again failed to relay that to crew and passengers.

>he still went to jail along with the mate on watch who actually crashed it.

Wut?

Captain Hazelwood was fined and sentenced to community service for negligent discharge of oil and cleared of all other charges.

>that video where you can see the hands a few of the kids trapped inside banging on the windows as rescuers float nearby, unable to help them

>By the way, Smith was told by radiooperators that Carpathia was due to arrive at around 4am. He again failed to relay that to crew and passengers.

How do we know this?

One of the radio-operators survived.

Do you have the quote where he says Smith didn't relay this to anyone?

How is saying the captain was responsible a conspiracy?

Did the rescuers not bring glass-breaking devices?

I don't know that I'd call it a conspiracy, more a theory. But saying "the more I am convinced that captain Smith was the main culprit behind both the sinking itself and the magnitude of disaster in terms of lost lives" is pretty ridiculous in that it's taking the actions and consequences of dozens of factors and dozens of people (ranging from the ship's crew, operators, officers, builders, White Star Line itself) in the palm of one single man. Not to mention the theory uses the "Smith was in a daze" myth.

I personally believe that if the titanic was sunk on purpose, it was because of JP Morgan. His rivals were on the Titanic.

Excuse the terrible screencap, but the ship was sinking rapidly (it sunk moments after you could see the hands on the windows) in extremely choppy water and at an angle where even if they somehow managed to break the glass, there's no guarantee they'd have been able to get anyone out.

The Titanic was sunk by a U-boat in an effort by the Germans to preemptively destroy the Anglo-American upper class so that they would have difficulty financing the coming war.

plausible, google u-boat commerce raids
although u-boats probably weren't fully developed at the time

bump

The front of the ship was ripped and steaming ahead would put even more pressure on the very same part of the ship

Words from a Titanic survivor:

>Think of it! A few more boats, a few more planks of wood nailed together in a particular way at a trifling cost, and all those men and women whom the world can so ill afford to lose would be with us today, there would be no mourning in thousands of homes which are now desolate, and these words need not have been written.

Although, horribly, the strict but uncompromising initial lifeboat regulations that were introduced because of the Titanic disaster contributed to the loss of life in at least one sinking: the SS Eastland, which was not designed to carry that much additional weight from more lifeboats (as well over 100 lbs of mandatory rafts). The ship rolled on its side and over 800 people died in 20 feet of water, in reach of the docks. Victims were mostly women and children (about 320 children killed in all) who were accompanying their husbands and fathers on a business-sponsored picnic trip. 22 entire families were killed.

Words from an Eastland witness:

>God, the screaming was terrible, it's ringing in my ears yet

>Wilhelm Gustolf

Wilhelm Gustloff, but, yeah

Mfw I am watching the sea hunters episode of that right now

And this was supposed to be a cruise ship built for National Socialism. Is this what Nazism looks like?
Fuck the children, the captain is first?

>Doesn't zig zag and has navigation lights on
Was the Captain retarded or something

Does Seahunters have the clips with the quotes from the survivors who were interviewed at some point years later? I can't remember where I saw those. I'll never get over the one who said that, after the disaster they could never--to that day, and they were elderly in the interview--look at ducklings because of all the children who were too light for the top-heavy life jackets. The jackets flipped them head first into the water, and they drowned with their legs kicking in the air.

Or the man who, as they clung to the rails of the sinking deck, took his pistol and shot his children and his wife. There were no more bullets left for himself so he simply let go and fell into the water.

From what I understand they assumed they wouldn't be targeted because there were civilians on board. Apparently they forgot the defense that Germany had used... how many times? in targeting ships carrying civilians during both wars--that traveling on a ship carrying any sort of ammunition or soldiers during wartime (and this ship was carrying some Nazi officers and officials) carried inherent risks and it was to be expected that it would be targeted.

I was only half paying attention to it but it had a german sailor from the escort ship and a dude who was a kid at time, but the survivor said he remembered adults in his boat kicking the hands of people who were trying to climb out of the water to get into the boat
The Captain should have known that there would be russian subs or aircraft in the area and knew that the russians wanted revenge for what happened during Barabosa

All four Captains were hauled in front of courts, but punishment was sort of hard to dish out because of the collapse of Nazi Germany.

Those four men would have been fucking hanged.

Gustloff was a troopship. It was armed with AA guns and on top of that carried a shitton of uniformed personnel. It was a legitimate military target and the Soviets had right to sink it without warning.

If anyone is responsible for the disaster, it was those assholes who crammed civilian refugees into that ship. The Soviets had their own fair share of war crimes, but the sinking of Gustloff actually wasn't one of them.

Spasibo comrade! Your extra bread ration is waiting for you!

Then death, and gulag for all relatives!