Why is Nestorian history so underrated?

Christians of all stripes are being attacked atp. What I meant was the Syriacs moving in during a period of the church's weakness. Of course not much is known about this subject so what actually happened may be more complex.

The Chaldean Syrian church is the modern day continuation of the East Syrian Rite Assyrian Church of the East in India, after the majority of its followers converted to Catholicism or West Syrian Rite Churches. However, when a new patriarch was elected a few decades later named Mar Thoma I, the Coonan Cross Oath of 1653 was made stating that the Church of India would break off from the Catholic Church. This was largely because a request for reunification with the Church of the East in the Middle East was declined, resulting in a bishop who was to reunite the churches named Ahatallah being tortured and killed by the Portuguese in 1652. As a result, Thoma formed his own independent church and waited for a bishop from the Assyrian Church of the East to come and officially reunite them.
>However, unbeknownst to him, a Syriac Bishop came, and because he unknowingly thought he was an Assyrian Bishop, ended up allowing the Syriac Bishop to unite the Indian Church with the west Syrian Rite Syriac Orthodox Church, forming the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.
Soon after, Many members of that church joined a Roman sponsored Church known as the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (from 1923) that implemented reforms in an effort to make them return.
>However, some of the members of Mar Thomas Church knew the Syriac Bishop was not of the East Syrian rite, and waited for a Bishop to come from the Assyrian Church of the East. When Mar Gabriel, The Assyrian bishop finally arrived in 1701 the Chaldean Syrian Church was established, and broke off from the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church which they joined temporarily.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Syrian_Church

The Nestorians were Assyrians, right?

The Mar Thoma Church is truly unique. A West Syrian tradition with Anglican communion.

It's a more outdated term and possibly derragatory but it seems to be what is used when referring to their churches during the middle ages whereas Assyrian and Chaldean is used in the present. Both the Mesopotamian and Indian churches trace their founding to an apostle named Thomas. The Indian claims are probably more doubtful and likely to have simply been inherited with the East Syriac tradition.

History of Malankara Marthoma Christians Part1
youtu.be/6kBkba7Tr8g

Nestorius did nothing wrong

Pisslam ruined everything, that's why

Lack of readily available primary sources in the West.

Not familiar with any religion by that name, kid.

Well they may be available in the West just that it's all in Arabic or Assyrian Neo-Aramaic.

Really makes you think.

>Pisslam ruined everything, that's why
Actually in China, the Mongols ruined Nestorian Christianity.

Everything foreign became unpopular in China following Yuan rule that people converted out of the religion.

That map is extremely wrong. Notice how Western Sahara, Mauritania and Mali have no Christians to speak of despite this map purporting they should be centers of the Christian world by now.

Nestorians are like the RC Cola of Christianity.

Catholics=Coke
Eastern Ortho= Pepsi
OO= Sprite
Evangelicals= Mountain Dew
Mainline Protestants=Dr Pepper

What's rc cola?

We have one here at Georgetown

Very interesting seeing the syriac next to traditional Chinese

More like Sarsaparilla

Exactly.

I THINK THE GUY ON THAT THRON OVER THERE IS REALLY FAGGOT LIKE JUST SAYING

SIGNED GUKO

>The Nestorians were Assyrians, right?

The biggest followers of Nestorius's teachings were likely "Assyrians", along with Greeks and others. However, the ancestors of modern Assyrians and Chaldeans only became the undisputed leaders of the Church of the East hierarchy slowly after 1000 A.D. when lower Mesopotamia became a bastion of Arab and Jewish culture without many Christians, let alone Syriac-speaking ones.

It began to be used as an ethnic name for Assyrian people, and this is the sense which became "outdated" in the 1800s when Catholics were no longer a small minority among them, since the Catholic Church preferred not using the name Nestorian even before the establishing of a Chaldean patriarch. Nestorian.org is apparently an official Assyrian Church of the East website and there are several examples I can think of showing it's an actively used word. However, it is considered derogatory due to how it's been used negatively and dismissively by writers until right now. For instance on Wikipedia's page for the Mongol Empire it says they practiced "Buddhism, Islam, and Nestorianism" as if it was a Mormon-tier sect in terms of heterodoxy. I'd change it but I don't know how, someone should bring it up in the Talk page, though.

Of course, this is probably because the followers are a territorial minority where even the different groups descending from Nestorians have a sense of insiders and outsiders. As well as actual prejudice being another factor.

In any case, as was stated, 2/3rds of the current descendants of the medieval Church of the East are of South Indian origin and "Chaldean" and "Assyrian" are usually only applied to them in religious contexts.

its the center of the global christian population user, not a representation of actual population centers

>token black guy
SJWs strike again.

wtf I am a proddie now

What's a proddie?

A Protestant.

Catholics=Coke
Eastern Ortho= Pepsi
OO= Sprite
Evangelicals= Mountain Dew
Mainline Protestants=Dr Pepper
Islam = Water

I'm interested where they kept their secret treasure.

Ebionites = original Coke formula before Paulines removed the cocaine and made other changes to the recipe

Bump

Because it's nothing but an inability to grasp the hypostatic union that is the Son of Man and the Son of God, Christ Jesus.

This

>Islam = piss
ftfy

BRAINLET!
It's a Statistical Centre of Gravity.
If you have a bunch of Christians in Europe, a bunch in sub-Saharan Africa and a bunch in the Americas, the statistical center would be somewhere between those locations.

That's fucking reatarded lmao

Continuing from this postMost of the current Nestorian churches seem to have at some point been in communion with the Catholic Church before splitting off again.
>The Chaldean Syrian Church's current Metropolitan, Mar Aprem Mooken, has argued that the church represents a direct continuation of the Ancient Church of the East hierarchy in India. However, Mathias Mundadan sets the church's origin within the 19th century autonomy movement within the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church. For over two hundred years the Syro-Malabar Catholics were under the authority of the Portuguese Archbishop of Goa. This arrangement led to resentment from some members, who wanted more autonomy for their local church, resulting in a formidable and sustaining autonomy movement. In the 19th century this movement's leaders made repeated pleas to both the Pope and the Patriarch of the Chaldean Catholic Church (an Eastern Catholic church in communion with the Pope) for their own bishop and liturgy.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldean_Catholic_Church

Dissent over the hereditary succession grew until 1552, when a group of Assyrian bishops, from the northern regions of Amid and Salmas, elected a priest, Mar Yohannan Sulaqa, as a rival patriarch. To look for a bishop of metropolitan rank to consecrate him patriarch, Sulaqa traveled to the pope in Rome and entered into communion with the Catholic Church, after first being refused by the Syriac Orthodox Church. In 1553 he was consecrated bishop and elevated to the rank of patriarch taking the name of Mar Shimun VIII. He was granted the title of "Patriarch of the East Assyrians", and his church was named the Church of Assyria ("Athura") and Mosul.

Mar Shimun VIII Yohannan Sulaqa returned to northern Mesopotamia in the same year and fixed his seat in Amid. Before being put to death by the partisans of the Assyrian Church of the East patriarch of Alqosh, he ordained five metropolitan bishops thus beginning a new ecclesiastical hierarchy: the patriarchal line known as the Shimun line. The area of influence of this patriarchate soon moved from Amid east, fixing the See, after many places, in the isolated Assyrian village of Qochanis.

The connections with Rome loosened up under Sulaqa's successors: The last patriarch to be formally recognized by the Pope died in 1600, the hereditary status of the office was reintroduced and, in 1692, the communion with Rome was formally broken, with this part of the church once more rejoining the Assyrian Church of the East.

One can safely say that the people of Qochanis and the surrounding Nestorian tribes who were expelled from Turkey after WWI never really practiced Roman Catholicism. Unlike in India, where the prior beliefs were all condemned, only the lists of saints and such seem to have been changed in the early Chaldean Catholic Church. Probably because it wasn't imposed.

Because christianity is boring.
I know poeple will meme about it but rick and morty has a few valid points about it.

hegelian dialectic of
chinese buddism
+ nestorian christiandom
= ???
profit

t. brainlet

Well guys, it was a decent thread while it lasted but the Veeky Forums people are here, goodbye!

Eurocentrism

So is Nestorianism still a thing today?

t. doesn't know anything about christianity

The fact that currently it is quite a minor part of Christianity and not particularly well known is not really helping.
I am sure that pictures of their churches and some maps could spike the interest for the thread at the least.

It's Ck2 meme tier Christianity. You can speak of robust doctrinal differences between Orthodox, Catholicism, and Reformed; all you have with Nestorianism is
>MUH communion with Rome
>MUH communion with 11 other minor branches of Orthodoxy
You might as well ask why Serbian Orthodox history is so underrated, those people at least have some presence outside of thier heimat.

It's unique. It's the only classical apostolic church to not feature icon veneration and no theotocos and preserves the most conservative dialect of literary Aramaic still in use. It's traditions don't seem to have much Romano-Hellene influence if any either which makes their existence and development even more amazing.

>Mentioning Reformation
>Ignoring Oriental Orthodoxy, which is separate from Eastern Orthodoxy
>Meme pic with Protestants
The only meme tier Christianity is Reformation, which is nothing else than a bunch of heretics that didn't got wiped out, like previous heresies were.

It's interesting how Manichaeism and Nestorianism were both popular throughout Asia and were both followed by Uyghurs. Nestorianism may have survived because of Islamic doctrine considering Christians as people of the book.

It created the biggest meme of the medieval era, so its got some worth

Elaborate for the sake of keeping potentially interesting thread alive.

Baptists = grape soda

Literally the first post in the thread states there are 10 million descendants of medieval Nestorianism and where they're from. It's two ethnic/religious groups known in the West as Assyrians and St. Thomas Nasranis. One speaks (Syriac) Aramaic, the other speaks Malayalam. The doctrinal Nestorians are mostly among Assyrians, but the 2nd post in the thread shows an interview with the leader of Nestorianism in India and pretty much representative of its present state as a whole. So it's all in the first three posts.

>those people at least have some presence outside of thier heimat.

>heimat
>home, homeland...country of origin

The principal seat of Nestorian churches was Chicago, Illinois from '40-2015. Half of its followers had not been in their "heimat" of southeastern Turkey for 20 years by 1940, and most didn't return.

>preserves the most conservative dialect of literary Aramaic still in use.
Jewish literary Aramaic may be older.

>It's traditions don't seem to have much Romano-Hellene influence if any either which makes their existence and development even more amazing.
Actually, there is some. After all, Nestorius was Greek. They translated many Greek works so they must've been using them.

>I am sure that pictures of their churches and some maps could spike the interest for the thread at the least.
There are many pictures of Kerala churches allegedly built by the medieval Church of the East. Less Middle East pictures, and some of that's being destroyed right now. Here is an allegedly very old Kerala one, prior to Nestorius.

>Nestorius was Greek

[Citation needed]

Syriac hymn in Eastern Syriac
youtu.be/svjBl5Mh93I

Our Father in eastern pronunciation
youtu.be/36GYBTzJyAU

western dialect
youtu.be/QqLZr11JhMM
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Aboun.ogg

comparison video
youtu.be/rE1SlpmkwdA

Babylonian Aramaic is related to Syriac both being eastern dialects as well as surviving Jewish Aramaic languages.
Some communities in the Levant preserve western dialects like in Maaloula, Syria.
aramaicnt.org/articles/he-who-lives-by-the-sword/

The part after 3:12 in the first link is generally considered its own chant, see youtube.com/watch?v=GO5Q5fw0jA0

This is another dialect (pronunciation) of classical Syriac

I like the part after 8:30 in this liturgy.

>Paste link
youtu.be/WqZ6kXWMDeM?t=510

Wut? Why the fuck is the global center of Christianity moving to the muslim parts of Africa? Is it implying, that Mauretania and Mali are about to be converted to Christianity?

You've never heard of Prester John, the based Christian king on the other side of the world who is fighting the good fight against the heathen?

It's an average, not the highest cluster of christians. There are a fuckton more Christians in Latin America and NA and Europe are converting away. Nigeria does have alot of Christians and Africa is a primary target of evangelization

History is written by the winners and the Nestorians lost

Who won?

The Muslims, the Hindus, the Confucians, the Buddhists and the European Christians

A much larger proportion of the people of 'Nestorian' descent have turned Roman Catholic than people of Eastern and Oriental Orthodox descent. That can be seen as "losing" although apparently John Paul II went to Kerala and they officially supported "restoring" their heritage.

Overall, though, I. S. I. S. is what's making them lose. Especially if you include Catholics and others of Nestorian descent.

They never really had an empire to begin with so they didn't really lose to anything rather they just had their culture destroyed by a hostile force. If anything it verifies the genuineness of their faith.

Also considering people will say that America lost against Vietnam and the Taliban it would be fair to consider Nestorianism's enemies to have lost if eliminating them was their goal since they have endured to the present unlike other sects.

Their missionaries still lost though, most of the bishoprics outside of India and their traditional regions have since long shut down. Not everything in history is about wars and empires.

Its decline in central and east Asia was like Britain losing America, it wasn't the main area.

Nestorian churches really declined in the 19th century, when the Chaldeans of Iraq became Roman Catholics. That combined with persecution made Nestorianism go from a significant and powerful part of the Middle East to what it is now. It's alleged that European powers strongly encouraged Catholic conversion to bolster their diplomatic status with the Ottoman government. Here is a Chaldean cathedral consecrated in 1981. Probably the process of Latinization and 'de-Nestorianization' is still ongoing or being attempted.

De-Catholization also took place. Who knows what the future may bring.

They didn't become roman catholic, they became eastern catholic, HUGE difference. Eastern catholics are basically eastern christians who recognize the supremacy of the pope, thats about it. That church looks nothing like a roman catholic church if you ask me.

Like technically now they're spread out more than ever. Their situation may have been even more anemic in previous periods.

Considering their history there's an ever-present chance that any side may choose to unite with the other.

I know, that's what I meant by the last line.. The CCC in 1600s was only differentiated by loyalty to the Pope, but now rosaries are widely used. So there is extra influence that like I said is gradual. They're still part of the Roman Catholic Church, and not just tied to it, if I'm not mistaken.

Yep the longer eastern Catholic churches are in communion the more there individual traditions and practices start to deviate.

Inauguration mass in a Syro-Malabar church
youtu.be/rACyNMX4LS8

>They're still part of the Roman Catholic Church, and not just tied to it
In most regards they could be considered churches in their own right, they are still a part of the catholic communion though just like the russian orthodox church is in communion with the greek orthodox church.

In the video posted here Mar Meelis Zaia says the dispute with Nestorians was rooted in miscommunication due to difference of language.
Even so they have been called the Persian church. West Syriacs might have greater influence from the West which demonstrated in their use of miniature Greek letters to indicate vowels. The East Syriac script uses diacritics like Hebrew and Arabic.

>it's the reason Franco-Mongol alliance was idea that almost happened

Since there is apparently some interest in this subject, just wondering, would anyone honestly be interested in a translation of this video: youtube.com/watch?v=bSDRTptunxQ

It's a historical speech by ACoE Catholicos Dinkha about the Assyrian Genocide and the life and death of his predecessor who may have personally led battles during those events. I can't do it today, though.

jelleverheij.net/monuments/Patriarchal-Church-of-the-Church-of-the-East-mob.html

Nice pictures, also seen in that video

>but now rosaries are widely used.
Eastern Orthodox Churches use prayer beads which are almost identical to rosaries, if they aren't rosaries themselves.

What exactly are you referring to by de-Catholization?

Also, bump

what's the difference between Assyrian, Syriac, and Chaldean?

Bumping this question

>rick and morty has a few valid points about it.

>assyrian
"Nestorians". Reject wording of Ephesus
>chaldean
Assyrian uniates
>syriac
Oriental Orthodox. Reject wording of Chalcedon

I partly answered this in .

You just described the difference between "Nestorianism, Catholic and Jacobite". The two sets of words aren't necessarily interchangeable.

These three words (A, C, S) have become popular among their own cultural leaders to describe the three main ethnic branches. There is no consensus about the names, but in Western usage all three names apply to all of them, Assyrian being the ethnicity, Chaldean (as a synonym for Mesopotamian rites) being the religion, and Syriac being the language. As I noted in that thread, the main name for themselves as a people (not just ethnically/nationalistically) is Syrian, and this is a medieval Christian classification equivalent to Franks or Latins or "Roman" Greeks. It continues to be used with an implication of Christianity. Syrian can also mean "Assyrian" by way of referring to"East Syrians" i.e. Mesopotamians only, but they are separate words in their language. Anyway, this reflects their rather pro-clerical nature which puts "Nestorian history" in another perspective and explains why they had no empire.

"Syriac" is used to refer to a group which is predominantly but not exclusively Jacobite / Syrian Orthodox. They are the most separate group, the other two being in permanent contact, while this one has never been "Nestorian". It seems that they reside within the area of the Roman Empire and the other two don't. A prominent feature of this group is their dialect of the language which reflects a difference in the classical language, Western and Eastern Syriac. I believe that using " Syriac" this way is recent, and there is an even more recently used word, Aramean.

"Assyrian" is used for the people descending from large tribal units in deeper Kurdistan and Azerbaijan areas, i.e. not living near Arabs unlike the other two groups. They are predominantly Nestorian.Some became Eastern Orthodox in recent history(and there are E. O. in the other groups too).1

Here It wasn't just the Nestorian Assyrians that lost members throughout their history but most of the current dioceses appear to have split from the Catholic Church after previously having entered into communion.
The number of Nestorians may have been much reduced during this period of schisms and new unions.

>i.e. not living near Arabs unlike the other two groups.
Well the endurance of both groups has partly been attributed to inhabiting mountain locations like Maaloula in Syria.
The western Syriacs took up jurisdiction over regions in the Levant closer to the epicenter of the Christian movement so today the last remnants of western Aramaic speakers are members of it.
Perhaps during early Christian periods Aramaic speakers of all backgrounds in the Levant may have perceived a viability in the Syrian churches and became members. The eastern liturgies are believed to be related to West Syriac ones and are categorized as Antiochean rites.

2 ... "Chaldean" refers to people of the Nineveh Plains and near northwestern Iraq, who became predominantly Catholic in the 19th century, and tend to be even more clerical and less nationalistic than "Assyrians". They traditionally have many agricultural and pastoral communities exclusively comprised of themselves, but I don't know about now due to I.S.I.S. Also, "Assyrians" were expelled from their areas after WWI and took refuge in these areas among many others, and now it is vulnerable.