When did Eastern Europe started to lag behind from Western Europe/the Nordic countries? For example...

When did Eastern Europe started to lag behind from Western Europe/the Nordic countries? For example, how different were living conditions of an average 16th-century peasant in Poland, Sweden and England? Did peasants in Eastern Europe had fewer rights than peasants in Western or the Nordic countries?

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youtube.com/watch?v=R7DhI9grN0Y
youtube.com/watch?v=ibu-XGHUWYY
youtube.com/watch?v=TW_hcZCY6QM
youtube.com/watch?v=Fkr-U2yvYO4
youtube.com/watch?v=IwwXJ8u7eTM
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Liberty
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_in_Poland
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old-Polish_Industrial_Region
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_Poland#Economy
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It was stuck in the orbit of Ottomans, Austrians or Russians as buffer states for most of their history, they also had constant raids and all out wars fucking their shit up

industrial revolution

Is there a particular reason why you marked Moravia but not Bohemia as Eastern Europe?

Most of those lands were ruled by either the Russians or the Turks.
It's a mystery.

>No industrial revolution
>Perpetually assfucked by Austrians, Germans, Russians and T*rks
>Occupied by the Soviets
>No Marshall Plan aid
>Half a century of communist looting and oppression
They are catching up pretty fast though.
Much of Eastern Europe is already at Western levels of development. For example, Czech Republic is already richer and more developed than Portugal.

The other half of Eastern Europe is still shitholes though. (Ukraine, Moldova, Romania, etc.)

damn, leeching from the EU really worked

It's just a pic I found on the Internet, not edited by me
>Russia

But then again, Russia is a part of Eastern Europe itself? So why has Russia always been such a backwards country? I know that the Mongols are often as the reason for the culture of brutality in Russia, but what was Russia like before the Mongol invasion? Was it on par with the Viking countries?

Bohemia is not in Eastern Europe.

There's absolutely no reason to separate Bohemia and Moravia into two completely different cultural spheres. There's less difference between them than between England and Scotland.

EU money doesn't do anything. I speak from experience.

"Russia" was a bunch of principalities in the Middle Ages. The Moscovites, which were the most violent and overall shitty, established themselves as the leaders, conquering the rest. Even to this day the Russian mentality is the same. The people are cattle, the ruler is always right and human life (and their prosperity) is not that important. The most important thing is that "we stronk", which means the tsar and boyars live in riches while the peasants die in war and misery.

>Czech Republic is already richer and more developed than Portugal.
Czech republic was richer than Portugal for literally 90% of history. Communism was just a minor setback.

That part of Europe managed to close the gap somehow in early modernity (renaissance was very vibrant and interesting in those countries) but lost it due to Age of Discovery having no clear access to the ocean and in the end only Russia could expand freely (but not as effectively). Now we're in the transition period where the effects of the Age of Discovery should no longer matter but no one knows exactly when it will happen.

>renaissance was very vibrant and interesting in those countries
Not in Russia.

>the most violent and overall shitty

But back in the Middle Ages. wasn't that the case everywhere? Or did the ruling class in countries like England or France hold more liberal attitudes towards their inferiors?

>its another episode of murridumbs not knowing history is longer than last three hundred years

You should look into the history of Kievan Rus. They were far less brutal as a semi-tribal confederacy. For example, before the Mongols the principalities only had execution for slaves, but the hordes introduce their own judicial practices: aka execute everyone. It might've worked for a lawless clan-based society where personal relationships ruled, but not for the feudal Rus society.

They didn't even have serfdom like in the West, so you can tell the society was far more just. Supposedly with the Christianization of the Rus the elite also imported a lot of the customs and practices of the Byzantine court, including all the pleasantries like mutilating rivals, exiling them to monasteries, and new torture techniques.

What's the deal with Polish, Hungarian, and Czech people getting mad when you call them Eastern European? They insist that they're "Central European".

If it's supposed to be a cultural term then it's false because those countries consider themselves part of the western culture.

If it's just geographical then what about the Nordic countries? The capital of the Czech Republic is west of the capital of Austria. So if it's just based around the old Cold War era understanding then of course people don't want to be associated with that.
And then there's the entire shape of the continent. If we take that Ural mountains are the eastern border of Europe then the V4 are way away from that and neatly in the middle. It'd be like calling Kansas a state located in the western or eastern US.

literal centre of europe is located in north eastern part of poland

They have very little in common with countries like Russia, Bulgaria or Albania. Treating Eastern Europe as some homogenous blob is retarded.

Read "Tragedy of Central Europe" by Kundera

Because the word Eastern is scary and it implies you're far removed from "normal European white people".

There's like 20 places that claim to be the center of Europe based on different methods of measurement. Almost all of them are in Eastern Europe though.

t. IQ 89

It's getting so ridiculous even Russians are claiming to be "Central European".

No.

Russians are just butthurt, because people work so hard to distance from them.

No connection to an ocean so its trade potential wasnt as good as West Europe.

hungary was very wealthy and prosperous, but russians saw that this shifted

When Muscovy conquered Novgorod

Actually the propaganda in Russia right now is that they're the super unique Eurasians.

It's a Cold war era bullshit. It's completely retarded to consider 60% of Europe Eastern and divide the rest 40% in Western, Northern and Southern.

Pretty sure the concept of "Eastern Europe" is older than the Cold War. Poland was already considered "Eastern Europe" before WW1.

What was the East border of Europe then?

Was it considered eastern by the people themselves?
Never seen it. But if it's true it could be just how French or British scholars looked at the land divided between Germany and Russia. It's their perspective that doesn't have to be treated as accurate.

Poland was moved a bit to the west after WW2, though.

Still the only objective criteria by which I can see the reason behind calling Poland eastern is that it was under the control of an actual eastern country for some time (including years 1944-1989). But still geographically central. I think people that don't like being called Eastern Europeans just think it implies that they're not considered part of the Western culture.

I've never really understood why Easter Europe often isn't considered part of Western culture. Is it because they (mostly) weren't under control of Rome? If so, then why would you include Germanic nations and Scandinavia? I feel like this is just an old remnant of the Cold War that doesn't really apply anymore, especially in regards to nations that have a shared literary and religious history like Poland.

Anything beyond Prussia was considered "Eastern".

It has to do with the fact that historically, its political and economic development was different. Enlightment ideas never made it into Eastern Europe, and by the early 20th century there was already a large gap in living standards and wealth, even before communism. There was also no tradition of democracy, unlike say, France or the Netherlands.

In the 1950s-1980s Southern Europe, which was also considered a separate thing, merged into "Western Europe" as development and democracy took root there, but Eastern Europe's catching up process was stunted by communism until the 1990s.

Its to do witha lot more than that, remember that germany isnt really in western europe, its centrial europe, that poland and czechia are totally part fo aswell

In part its to do with the iron curtian but also eastern slavic culture and that nationalism took a lot longer to result in nation states in the east than it did in the wast

>nationalism took a lot longer to result in nation states in the east than it did in the wast
but that's wrong kiddo

>Enlightment ideas never made it into Eastern Europe, and by the early 20th century there was already a large gap in living standards and wealth, even before communism. There was also no tradition of democracy, unlike say, France or the Netherlands.
None of this really applies to Poland though, hell it could be argued that they have one of the older democratic traditions in Europe, and they fought directly against the spread of Communism in the 20's. Sure they adopted Enlightenment ideals relatively late, but they did adopt them.
Before I'm accused of being a Pole, I am neither Polish nor do I have any Polish blood in me. However, I find it incredibly odd that Poland is rarely counted as being part of Western culture, given that it tends to have more in common with the West than East in nearly all ways but language.
Even then, I find the East/West cultural divide in Europe to be sketchy at best, as I think there are very few modern European nations that don't have a clear root in Greco-Roman culture or have yet to adopt ideas born out of Enlightenment thought. The biggest modern divide really just seems to be economic, a divide which has been rapidly shrinking (for most countries at least) since the fall of the USSR. I wouldn't be surprised if in 50-100 years most if not all of Eastern Europe is counted as part of Western culture.

Easter, Western, Central, Northern, and Southern Europe is much more a cultural, political, economic, and even religious divide than it is a geographical one.

>Enlightment ideas never made it into Eastern Europe
I agree but only because I have Russia in mind. Countries west of Russia are a different story entirely. Although there was no enlightened despotism there I don't know if that's a problem.

>There was also no tradition of democracy, unlike say, France or the Netherlands.
Weirdly enough there was no tradition of democracy in HRE but there was in P-L Commonwealth. Yeah I know feudalism was also a thing but there were many aspects and nuances of the "golden democracy" that addressed that. And even before that because we're talking about the tradition of democracy. Back when the union was only personal and not real there was already a rule that stated that the community had the right to decide its own allegiance. In practice it meant that even pagan Samogitia couldn't be traded off just like that by whoever (there was an actual case with Sigmund of Luxembourg from 1412 about that piece of land).

thats a bullshit divide

You could say that Enlightment took a couple decades longer to flourish in Poland but I don't think an actual consitution (that reformed the mistakes of the noble democracy and was considerably more egalitarian) can be called nothing. Although it was just a culmination of the process. Culture and architecture that was popular at the time was also comparable with the one found west of its borders. And there was no Peter the Great who had to "westernize" the country.

>Enlightment ideas never made it into Eastern Europe
Maria Theresa, Josef II and Catherine the Great were considered enlightened absolutists.

>Enlightment ideas never made it into Eastern Europe

which eastern europe?

>cultural, political, economic, religious divide
>he says while lumping Hungary in the same group as Russia and Bosnia

So you pick and choose whatever of some 5-6 things to divide the regions?
Also what the fuck is the political divide between that so-called Eastern Europe (Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, the Balkans) and the rest of Europe?

here, i tried to fix it

Does Moldova count as a Balkan country or not?

>estonia
>nordic

Originally yeah but it was pretty heavily russified.

Did commoners have any franchise in Poland?

Austria, Hungary, Czechia, Slovakia, Slovenia, parts of Croatia and parts of Poland, this should be a group separate from everyone else. They share history, religion, culture, architecture, cuisine, even genetics. Basically everything apart from language.

Cuase Portugal and Greece share a fuckton of cultural, political, economic and even religious characteristics.

>can say Prussianized
>can't say Russianized
Weird.

Well they couldn't elect a monarch or take part in parliamentary proceedings but the nobility wasn't a closed group either.

People were getting land and titles (coat of arms) through service. I think that's how Tatar nobility came to be.

Romania was piss-poor during the Soviet era, they are pulling through now. (Unlike Ex-Yugoslav countries)

Ex-Yugosalv here, it used to be different just a few decades ago. Going there during the 80s felt like visiting Africa.

yeah
then you looked at poland who was even poorer than romania during communism and you realise that its possible to pull through

Poland did not exist before WW1

>hurr fucking durr

...

Nobody thought East Prussia is "Eastern Europe".

> When did Eastern Europe started to lag

Steppeniggers.

Communism

Because those terms are used to indicate what's good or bad.

Northern Europe = best
Central Europe = best
Western Europe = ok
Southern Europe = low tier borderline shit
Eastern Europe = shit

>all those Arab states
And their only contributions are shitting up other nations. At least Turkey made Mount and Blade.

>its political and economic development was different. Enlightment ideas never made it into Eastern Europe,
You know jack shit about central Europe and Poland then:
youtube.com/watch?v=R7DhI9grN0Y
youtube.com/watch?v=ibu-XGHUWYY
youtube.com/watch?v=TW_hcZCY6QM
youtube.com/watch?v=Fkr-U2yvYO4

youtube.com/watch?v=IwwXJ8u7eTM

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Liberty
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_in_Poland

>butthurt polish biased links
Yep, nothing to see

You're idiots. CENTRAL EUROPE = Germanosphere.

Great migrations

Bohemia is eastern germanic

So is Moravia then.

Eastern Europeans ARE the steppeniggers. Or was that your point?

WE

BYLY

Funny thing is that it was Moravia that was always "Germanic". I don't consider it a good thing, though.

Peasants in Eastern Europe were essentially made slaves in the 17th century with the advent of the Second Serfdom in areas east of Elbe, as the lower population density led to societies dominated by the manorial elites rather than urban elites. If you have academic logins, I can link a great paper on the subject of Brandenburgian peasants being stripped of their essential rights in return for nobles granting the elector a right to a personal army.

KROLAMI

CÍSAŘI, TY KURVO!

Arabs did their part in the early and high middle ages.

Must be hard to recover when you´re cheap labour next to the german border

Is that all you got retard?
Watch the last lecture.

>>No industrial revolution
Not really.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old-Polish_Industrial_Region
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_Poland#Economy

Slavs, slavic diaspora and slav controlled countries are Eastern. Germanic are northern. Romance are southern. There are exceptions but this is generally the rule.

Nah, the first terrible video was enough. No more wasting time.

Do we still define German compass directions as France, Switzerland, Austria and Denmark?

Why do you keep posting this ugly TÜRAN bitch? If you want to make poolan look good at least post some Nordic woman.

Remember, already during the viking age the slavs were cucked by vikings. The slavs must have been far more numerous so how they did it is a huge mystery.

slavs and vikings would get along

>Early on in the ninth century, a group of Swedish Vikings, otherwise known as the Rus, entered the area today known as Russia. At the time the area was largely occupied by several groups of disorganized Slavic tribes.


>The tribes found themselves constantly at reckless war with one another until they finally called out for guidance. They said to themselves, "Let us seek a prince who may rule over us and judge us accordingly to the law." They henceforth went to the land of the Rus and said, "Our land is great and rich, but there is no order in it. Come rule and reign over us." (Roesdahl, p. 287). A Rus chieftain named Rurik came to the region and set up a kingdom in Novgorod in the time around 860 AD. The new kingdom thrived, and just a short twenty years later, a successor of Rurik conquered Kiev, a city over 600 miles south of Novgorod. The once jumbled region quickly became unified and seeds of a new empire had been created.

and then they integrated into slavic culture instead of trying to spread their own
so everyone was happy at the end

Maybe. Or the cultures blended. We cannot know

>Polish, Hungarian, and Czech
because catholic A-H empire was a thing for 400 hundreds years while Iron curtain ended after 40 years but Burgers think history started in 1776.

>When your entire group becomes nobles because you mutilated some Germans in battle of Grunwald
Best system

They cant be steppeniggers user, they don't have enough horses, how can you be a steppenigger without 5 horses for every person. As a steppenigger I feel insulted by your claim.

This guy gets it.