I have problems with the “Could God have created a universe with free will but without evil” section of this image and its answers. It is very likely God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil to exist. One such reason would be the prospect of a world without evil. If no one could be evil, we would all just be mindless God worshipers (at least by Christian standards), so it seems that because we aren’t, God did not want a world like that.
>What did He mean by this?
A Christian would argue that God wanted people to come to Him on their own terms and/or wanted us to have free will. This begs another question: is free will a good thing? Well, arguing for the Christian side, I would say it is. Though we can (and more likely than not will) do bad things, free will entails a more engaging and definitely brings more happiness to humans (though also more pain, a great double-edged sword). One might then say “but if he allows sin then why does he preach against it?” Christian ethics are a great way to create a stable and trouble-free society, which is beneficial to all people. Pleasure-based ethics bring great happiness to the individual. The great part is, though, is that it’s all up to you. Some believe striving for a sin free life is better, and are happy in that sin free life, others don’t care about sin and are also happy.
I’m not arguing beyond this point, but I saw this in a thread and it got deleted before I could respond.
On the problem of evil
>If no one could be evil, we would all just be mindless God worshipers
why can't god make a world where there is no evil and we can willfully love him at the same time?
>it makes no logical sense
god decides what makes logical sense, he could do it if he wanted to
unless you admit god doesn't decide what is logical, which would mean logic precedes and is above him, which would make him not the master of the universe
What if the world is Good, but we humans just don't know what Good and Evil are?
god has given a fuck ton of books telling us what good and evil are
How can you willfully love someone without being able to also choose to not love them?
using this current logic we probably can't
why couldn't god have made it so we could?
every theist that sees this image loves to ignore pic related
Books that have been around thousands of years, yet humans today consider Good and Evil to be something entirely different than what our ancestors did. Not to mention differences between cultures and even individuals.
So who is in the right? If The correct view is not something rather vague and flexible there will only be one group of people, in one era that will have the right answer. While everyone else, including their own children will be doomed to an eternity of falsehood.
>humans today consider Good and Evil to be something entirely different than what our ancestors did
not if the follow the same religion
if you truly believe that the holy books are the word of god there is nothing unclear or flexible about what is good and what is evil
Logic was created by God for humans to understand His universe, I don't think he has to operate by his own logic, but instead chooses to so that he can become closer with his children.
St. Bonaventure explains that God created all things "not to increase his glory, but to show it forth and to communicate it," for God has no other reason for creating than his love and goodness: "Creatures came into existence when the key of love opened his hand."
Evil is something that is needed in the world. Because it is medicine for the soul.
so if god doesn't need to follow what we consider logical why couldn't he have made it so there is free will but no evil?
The chart is overthinking a simple concept.
Is god perfect?
Yes.
Does god need or want of anything?
No.
Then why would god do anything at all?
Evil in this line of thought is not restricted to human actions, but to all things that hurt us.
Why did god put us into a world with tuberculosis and mosquitoes and earthquakes and trees that did not bear fruits in sufficient quantities to feed us all ?
It's because he wanted us to suffer more than what was necessary.
The genesis makes it clear : god cursed humanity to a life of suffering here. And an afterlife of suffering for most of us.
Why ?
Because our ancestors exercised that free will to disobey. And the only way to escape that curse is to renounce your free will.
>so if god doesn't need to follow what we consider logical why couldn't he have made it so there is free will but no evil?
I said before that it's because God wanted to operate this way so that his children understand him. He wants to be closer to us and therefore acts and creates in a logical manner.
The entirety of Christian theology is about answering this question. There is no single quick and easy answer to it that I could make that works up to the character limit. I could copy paste the entirety of the Bible, the Catechism of the Catholic Church and thousands of encyclicals that touch on this but searching through that obviously takes too long for someone who wants a short cut to the answer of the problem of evil.
Seriously you would thing the only thing god would do is create another equally perfect god that thinks does and wants in the exact same way.
unfortunately for you that's deism and you are a heretic to all major churches
>because God wanted to operate this way so that his children understand him
can he operate in a different way and make us understand that different way?
>It is very likely God has morally sufficient reasons for allowing evil to exist.
God doesn't exist to serve mortals. That's like bacteria expecting you to serve it.
>can he operate in a different way and make us understand that different way?
God's will is the same as God's power, so there is no opposition to either. Again, all of Christian theology is about answering this question, there is no one simple answer to it.
What even is that picture
if he can make one world with free will and without evil then why doesn't he?
>god wants his children to understand him
>the entirety of Christian theology is about answering a simple question
Does not compute.
With infinite wisdom and goodness God freely willed to create a world "in a state of journeying" towards its ultimate perfection. In God's plan this process of becoming involves the appearance of certain beings and the disappearance of others, the existence of the more perfect alongside the less perfect, both constructive and destructive forces of nature. With physical good there exists also physical evil as long as creation has not reached perfection.
Choosing not to love God IS evil.
There still is the possibility of understanding him, even though it is complex. The alternative argument would be that he doesn't need to use logic at all.
I mean, if god wants to understand, he could make us understand perfectly without any effort.
It sounds like theologians answer to that is that he wants us to understand but doesn't want to communicate clearly ?
The shitty girlfriend joke is in fact their argument ?
>What even is that picture
IDK, it has words, numbers, and symbols on it though. You seem to make declarative statements about intergalactic superhuman entities which would imply you're not illiterate.
Some theologian has probably already answered the graph and your post, OP.
Basically, part of your graph is a paradox. And theological paradoxes have already been addressed. I can’t remember by who. Probably Aquinas
God doesn't mind evil existing for our 80~ years of life, because there won't be any in our eternity in Heaven.
Our lives on Earth simply aren't the most important part, to him. And perhaps he thinks people living lives where bad things and tragedies happen is better for us, in the long run, so that we can better appreciate our immortal lives in Heaven. Maybe he sends every soul through a few times, to live wealthy, to live poor, to be aborted, to live to be 103, et cetera.
This is all coming from a non-religious guy, though.
God does not really care about evil in the laymans terms we understand it (negative emotions). God is violent himself and created the world with evil and has this evil principle in himself as well, but he goes beyond it because his freedom is fully realised and Abolute. Our freedom is conditional because of good and evil actions , we can never fully realise fully our freedom which is to be good because we suffer the shadow of death. Gods freedom is beyond our actions in instances of our lives, this is why in Abrahamic thoology the notion of having your soul being saved is so important.
>There still is the possibility of understanding him, even though it is complex.
No. There is not. All you can offer is speculation that hardly reach the plausible level after a lot of work.
You are aware of it. Why pretend otherwise ?
So in other words evil is needed for this universe to exist
Could God have made a universe without evil being necessary?
Not that guy. But, on the contrary, what is evil is for a human being to genuinely believe something such as, 1) that certain human beings are condemned to suffer in hell for eternity because they do not believe in a particular omnibenevolent god, and worse, 2) /that it is good and proper for human beings to be so dispatched, on such a god's watch/. The "muh tradition, muh faith" defense of such a god is reprehensible and execrable, in every meaingful or useful sense in which those words can be applied to observations of the world.
This is not to say that you yourself hold this /specific/ view, but it is common enough that it deserves explication to its adherents, my philosophical opponents, and is an important practical, specific negation of the false claim which you have just made. When you tell me with a straight face that god is good and such-and-such people go to hell (assuming hell as some sort of a positive, real place where everlasting suffering of some sort takes place, and not mere non-existence), /and that it is right and proper that this should take place/, what you do is, you demonstrate to me that you yourself have a completely depraved moral sense which has absolutely no bearing on anything that actually matters, anywhere, and that not only do I not have to listen to your opinions on any sort of moral conduct whatever, but moreover that I should generally either ignore or initially assume to be false any such future opinions from the adherent.
Belief in god, insofar as it entails the common Abrahamic notions of hell, is evil. And it is no sort of a defense of such belief to point out that most humans are wired for some sort of religion (they are). Rather, all that this means is that humans are /weak/, and not as of yet /good enough/ beings to be able to do without god.
>There won't be any evil in heaven.
That's another point where Christian logic breaks down.
So God gave us free will because of he loves us (and that makes sense because of reasons).
Free will means evil.
At one point god will end this world because it is evil, send most of humanity to he'll and the rest to heaven.
There won't be any evil there.
Which implies that there won't be free will either.
Or that God, by saving individuals according to his Grace and damning the others, will create a new world... with free will and without evil...
He did. He made the heavens.
could he have made earth so too?
reminder that if he is all knowing he knew from the start that humanity would end up in earth
You’re basing your entire argument off of your feelings. What you feel is right or wrong.
Ergo, your argument doesn’t actually have anything to back it up.
You think you know what evil is, but clearly you don’t.
Side note, people choose to go to hell. It’s good to pity them and to try to prevent them from choosing hell, but it’s no one’s fault but their own.
>send people to hell
People choose hell
>if there’s no evil in heaven, that means there’s no free will
No, it means that heaven is filled with people who choose not to be evil.
>So in other words evil is needed for this universe to exist
*Whoooosh*
>Could God have made a universe without evil being necessary
Yes but there would be no point in that, would there? Unchanging perfection is literally just God. He doesn't need to create himself because he already exists.
>No, it means that heaven is filled with people who choose not to be evil.
can i choose to be evil in heaven?
Maybe that's the reason why there are separate Earths and separate heavens? I mean, the point is, this is a trial. If you can make it to heaven, you have succeeded, if you go to hell, you have failed.
That’s an irrelevant question.
>Yes but there would be no point in that, would there?
why wouldn't there be a point?
>So God gave us free will because of he loves us (and that makes sense because of reasons).
>Free will means evil.
You have free will because you're animals and all animals are bound by natural law.
Souls are judged by divine law.
Abrahamics are know-nothings - they're sickos - disgusting pigs. God wouldn't go near them with a 1000 light year pole.
>why wouldn't there be a point?
Why would God create himself, unchanging perfection, instead of creating creatures that start out imperfect but eventually could become perfect?
no, it's not
the fact that i chose not to act evil on earth doesn't mean i'll stay like that forever as long as i have free will
will i be able to use my free will to conduct evil?
>Why would God create himself
who talked about creating himself? i'm talking about creating a different universe
That's fine but you still got told, deal. I win and further responses are void, for the reasons already given.
(protip: any other definitions of good and evil apart from the one I'm using are also void, as thus being both /meaningless/ and /useless/.)
You’re baiting me, aren’t you? That, or you’re quite literally retarded. Like, diagnosably mentally handicapped
>people choose to go to hell
why does god make people gay then send them to hell?
You wouldn’t commit evil acts in heaven. Ergo the question is irrelevant. It’s not a matter of whether or not you CAN. You simply would not. No one would, in heaven.
>strawmanning
Shoo shoo, atheshit
>You wouldn’t commit evil acts in heaven
Why? don't I have free will? What would stop me?
Say I get murdered and go to heaven, then after years my murderer dies but has regret murdering me and goes to heaven too. Will I be able to hate him?
>giving a real life example is strawmanning
this is why no one takes religious people seriously
>who talked about creating himself? i'm talking about creating a different universe
A perfect, unchanging universe. That essentially is God.
homosexuality in itself is NOT a sin
committing homosexual acts is
>No, it means that heaven is filled with people who choose not to be evil.
No. Heaven will be filled with sinners. It is not possible for humans to choose not to be evil (not to sin).
Upon entrance into heaven god either changes them to make them able not to sin, or deprives them of free will.
If the former is possible them he should have done so at creation, and given us a real practical moral choice.
>people choose hell
Salvation and damnation isn't up to us, and most of the unrepentant sinners never chose he'll over heaven specifically. Hell is the (hidden) consequence of other choices.
Not this "born that way" back again...
You wouldn’t hate him. You have free will, but you wouldn’t want to be evil or do evil.
Show me the verse or part of the catechism that says gays automatically get sent to hell.
Pro tip, it’s the homosexual acts that are sinful, not the person’s existence.
no, that is not god. god created the universe, he is not the universe
why would i not hate him? he literally murdered me?
i would be considered saintly for not hating him, but it is normal human behavior to hate your murderer
>it's not BEING gay that sends you to hell, it's acting like yourself that does :-DDDD
Since when can one will away his emotions ? Do we become able to do that in heaven ?
Why aren't we able to do that now ?
So you are saying God should’ve created humans already existing in heaven? Kinda defeats the purpose of giving them the choice to choose him.
>deprives them of free will
Are you deprived of free will when your body makes you seek out food and eat? God’s presence would influence humans upon arrival to heaven. That doesn’t remove free will.
>hell is the (hidden) consequences of other choices.
No. The fact that we are discussing the existence of hell is evidence of it not being hidden.
Christianity, and Christ’s purpose on earth, is/was to warn us of the dangers of hell.
If a person doesn’t choose God, then they’re choosing to send themselves to hell.
Are you incapable of forgiving others? Do you seriously think you’d still be incapable of forgiving others when in the presence of divinity?
>he murdered me
And now you’re in heaven, which is better than anything you could’ve had on earth. Why would you be mad that he killed you? So mad you couldn’t forgive him?
>acting like yourself
If your sexuality is the entirety of your personality and persona, you may need to take a step back and rethink a few things.
Some people are born with a predisposition for alcoholism. That doesn’t mean it’s okay for them to be alcoholic.
God is a non-contingent basis for the universe. We don't know much about his qualities other than he is perfect and unchanging. If God created something which is perfect but unchanging, then he didn't "create" anything, but just existed.
Sounds like you de facto do not have free will in heaven.
If he wanted to be closer to his children why didn't he create a universe that would more efficiently bring his children closer to him?
Why does god have to be all powerful?
>will away emotions
We’re just talking about hate, here
>do we become able to do this in heaven?
You wouldn’t have the emotions that are a result of a lack of God. Like hate, lust, etc.
>why can’t we do that on earth
Because we aren’t directly with God.
I’m sorry you’re not understanding it.
>If he wanted to be closer to his children why didn't he create a universe that would more efficiently bring his children closer to him?
Jews chose to wreck the planet - "Christians" and Muslims joined in with that.
Monotheists don't worship that which is God, like Jesus said. Monotheists worship rape, murder, vandalism, genocide, and their ego-trips.
That’s like saying
>if it’s illegal to rape and murder people, then you don’t have freedom
It seems what you're saying is more like you're incapable of NOT forgiving someone in heaven.
You know, because you lack free will in heaven.
That chart depends on the presumption that humans, a being that lives within the universe God created for 0.0000000001% of it's total lifespan have a solid enough grasp on the true nature of reality that they are able to make value judgements about the actions of an immortal being that can view the entirety of creation.
Do you believe that is a reasonable presumption? I don't. I think it's sheer arrogance to think that we understand the tapestry of creation well enough to tell what is good and evil. You're acting like a child who complains their parents are evil for not allowing them to eat candy for dinner. The child doesn't understand that the parent is doing what is in their childs best long term interest, much as God is doing for us.
How compelling.
So you're saying God's will in heaven is literally identical to man made laws.
Many people still murder regardless of laws against it. It seems no human souls contradict God's will in heaven.
>created
there's the problem with your theory
>Are you incapable of forgiving others?
Why is it irrational to hate him? I have free will don't I? What would stop me?
>If your sexuality is the entirety of your personality and persona, you may need to take a step back and rethink a few things.
Having gay sex doesn't make it the basis of your persona any more than having hetero sex does.
If you don't think sticking your dick in another mans ass is inherently immoral then frankly the bar of your morality is set so low that it would be appalling to other people let alone a being that is literally goodness incarnate.
>ROFL U JUS DON GET IT
>NOW LET ME INSULT YOU FOR THE REST OF MY POST
Be silent, subhuman cretin.
>It seems no human souls contradict God's will in heaven.
Because sin is anathema to God. You can't get into heaven in the first place if you're stained with sin, by definition the only people who get to heaven are the ones who reject sin to the point where they are actually able to be in Gods presence without getting incinerated.
Analogy=\=literally identical
Are you at all willing to understand or are you utterly convinced that your side is right? Because you seem bound and determined to think that not wanting to commit evil means you don’t have free will. Which means you either have a childish understanding of free will, or you’re just childish and not even attempting to understand.
Explain to me what makes you believe that you have adequate knowledge and perspective to be able to judge the immortal creator of the universe. How did you manage to learn so much in ~20 years that you're able to tell that "God is like, totally evil man" despite the fact that God understands literally everything about reality and you don't even understand an infinitesimal fraction of it?
>Because free will is anathema to God.
Thanks for clearing that up. I'm glad you agree with my statement that humans have no free will in heaven.
Your post=!a worthwhile analogy
>I have free will don’t I?
Yes, but you wouldn’t WANT to hate him. Why would you even hate him? Seriously, so what that he killed you? Why would you think that that is a bad thing when you’re in heaven?
>having gay sex doesn’t make it the basis of your persona any more than having Herero sex does
You, or the guy I replied to, brought up gay sex as “acting like themselves.”
Not them but, it seems like you weren’t asking questions with the intent to further your understanding, you were just being a shitposting retarded?
>Are you at all willing to understand or are you utterly convinced that your side is right?
I could and do now ask you the exact same question.
>not wanting to commit evil means you don’t have free will.
Because you lack the ability to want to commit evil in heaven.
Because your free will has been stripped from you.
But feel free to continue using hilariously petty and pathetic insults in place of arguments, it really helps your case. I'm sure God is quite happy with the way you're handling this discussion.
I'm saying that if free will doesn't imply evil, then the choice could very well have been made without allowing evil.
If it is god's influence that prevents people from doing evil in heaven, then he could influence us right now.
We wouldn't lose anything in the process, since anyway it is the only thing that purifies us in the end (and not our choices and experiences), and since choices can be made under it (assuming free will exists in heaven).
Every way you take it evil is not necessary and should not be so common if god was good.
>The fact that we are discussing the existence of hell is evidence of it not being hidden.
Its existence is hidden. There is no way to perceive its existence. And everything about it is unclear. Only its name is known.
As for the ways to enter It, they are obscured too. Who can know who will be saved ? All Christians answer : only god.
Your claim has been proven wrong again and again, why do you keep making it? Not choosing to sin=\=not having free will.
Why are you incapable or unwilling to understanding that?
That doesn’t mean your free will has been stripped from you
>I'm glad you agree with my statement that humans have no free will in heaven.
I don't. You seem to be misunderstanding the difference between not having free will and not exercising your free will to commit sin. There is a difference. Choosing not to commit sin is just as much an act of free will as choosing to commit sin. The people in heaven are people who exercise their free will to not commit sin because the people who do choose to sin don't end up there in the first place? Get it?
I'll dumb down the explanation a bit more if you still don't understand, but it should be pretty simple.
Evil is a result of free will on earth. If God made us to already be in heaven, then we wouldn’t have had the opportunity to choose him.
>Because your free will has been stripped from you
This is an incorrect conclusion. You don't seem to understand what free will entails.
God wants humans to have free will. He wants people to worship him willingly. Evil is a necessary sacrifice in order to achieve this. If this is false, why would he free the slaves from Egypt? He could basically just say that the Pharaoh was His voice and that the slaves should worship the pharaoh's/God's word without question.
God removes emotions from us when we enter heaven ?
That's like saying that chemical castration preserves the free will of would-be sexual criminals.
And if these emotions are unwelcome and to be removed why didn't he do so from the start ?
Why wasn't he with us in that way from the start ?
Asked and answered. Read the thread
Why not ? Free will means that we can choose.
Why couldn't we choose god from heaven ? Actually, would you not agree that souls in heaven are perpetually choosing god ? How else could they love him ?
No it hasn't, you've been making claims without even a sentence to defend those claims. I have.
On earth people can choose to sin, even when they don't.
In heaven, no human soul is even capable of making that choice. Evidence to support this: There has never once in all of eternity been a single recorded occurrence of that choice being made in heaven by a human. Ever.
How compelling.
Free will entails the capability of committing both good and evil.
In heaven you are only capable of committing good.
Because your free will has been stripped from you.
Your impotent accusations against me instead of actual arguments are getting tiresome, and I don't predict your behavior is going to improve over the course of this thread. I hope for the sake of your soul you learn humility at some point, user.
Could God have made it not necessary?
I don't see it, point it to me or copy paste.
Heaven and God exist outside of time.