Could Japan have beaten the USA?

Could Japan have beaten the USA?

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no
they didnt have nukes first off
second off their primary method of fighting was kamikaze and sneak attacks
theres 0 chance

No.

Only in some different universe, where the US didn't have the same resources or manpower. Maybe, at a stretch, in a colonial war 30 years prior (for instance, in 1914-17 the US army was even smaller than the UKs') they could have done, but not in the 1940s, but that's still discounting resources, technological superiority, and potential manpower.

this is what happens when you fuck with the eagle
youtube.com/watch?v=jjz1OUi2ypM

Even if we have a vastly weaker U.S., we still have the rather glaring problems of

>Large commitment to a stalemated war in China drawing up enormous amounts of manpower
>A ridiculously dysfunctional government where the army and navy hate each other, and both of them have colossal problems in things like "not giving a shit what the government tells them to do".
>An economy that is completely dependent on overseas imports in a war where you have no clear doctrine on how to defend the ships moving this stuff around.
>No ability to project force to the enemy's mainland; and a severely limited ability to do so to even their forward bases.
>A strategy that is based around wearing down the enemy's will to fight but opens up with a move virtually guaranteed to send that will to fight skyrocketing.
>A fascination with overly complicated plans for naval offensives, ensuring that force remains dispersed.
>A refusal to send experienced pilots back to train others, thus ensuring that institutional skill growth remains glacially slow.
>In fact, an overall system of face-saving and honor that ensures that it becomes extremely difficult to institutionally learn anything, especially from mistakes (which we can't admit that we make)

Japan was totally, utterly, and completely fucked. It's not even a David vs Goliath scenario. It's a toddler vs Goliath.

Ignoring the OP's question, how could Japan get a good result for itself after the US oil embargo, as things were at the time? Using the full benefit of hindsight.

No, their entire plan for colonialism was to avoid an outright war with the us as much as possible. The smart generals and higher ups knew the war was lost the minute the battle of midway began

Tuck tail and get out of China and the South Pacific islands that weren’t gifted from League of Nations, no other way possible

Certainly by 1941 there is absolutely no disagreeing with you. I agree with you entirely on a basis of a large scale war. Only thing I'd wager differently is if it were some pointless low key colonial clash, much like the Spanish-American War, would the Japs have stood a chance, with battles like that of Tsingtao they proved that, but on something as grandiose as WW2, they wouldn't have stood a chance.

Your best bet is to probably try to call the U.S.'s bluff over the NEI, attack the Netherlands, and hope that FDR can't get the sort of internal coalition together to declare war on you back. If they do, try to get a face saving peace ASAP, and without the pearl harbor surprise attack, you won't have the same impetus from the populace to stamp Japan into a mud puddle.

But even this could fail and fail badly. But it's probably the best you've got at that point.

No, Japs were only good at picking on countries weaker than them

When squaring off against a developed, western power they stood no chance

The truth is that I think that if Japan had waited a little longer to settle well in China, to depend on the Chinese resources conquered could have given the US more fight.

Based Japan. Yo bitch.

Japan could of won if they were the first to develop nukes, and they'd're launched them on the USAs.

What is NEI?

Yes.

In the same way it's possible that unicorns might exist.

>toddler vs Goliath.
More like a zygote with asthma vs The Hulk.

The entire thing was basically one massive suicide attack to satisfy the ego of militarists and follow a self-destructive code of "honor."

Netherlands East Indies. Nowadays Indonesia. It's where Japan got the overwhelming majority of their oils during the pacific war historically.

This

>only good at picking on countries weaker than them

This is how literally every military ever operates. Nobody but an idiot goes around picking fights with somebody stronger than themselves, and such idiots rarely survive for long.

Well it is very well possible that many of the decisive battles could have been won by the japanese which could sway the war

Which decisive battles? How could they win them? And what stops the U.S. from reacting to such a decisive loss by just building more Essex carriers and roflstomping the Japanese anyway?

The only ones that matter are Midway and Leyte.
Thanks bro.

>The only ones that matter are Midway and Leyte.
They would not enable Japan to defeat the U.S.

combinedfleet.com/economic.htm

At best they help buy some time, but time isn't on the Japanese side. The longer the war last the more the overwhelming industrial and institutional advantages that the U.S. possesses come to bear.

Absolutely not
They got themselves involved in a war of attrition against a state that had infinitely more resources
They even relied on American resources in the first place

>literally SIX MONTHS after the war starts
>Japan gets smacked so fucking hard in ONE BATTLE that the IJN never ever recovers
>the USN and USAAF dominate the Pacific from then on
>the war just turns into digging Nips out of smelly jungle islands where they dug in
Japan never really even put up a proper fight desu

>The longer the war last the more the overwhelming industrial and institutional advantages that the U.S. possesses come to bear
And if Tojo, et al had heeded Yamamoto's advice saying the same, the Pacific war may never have happened.

Yes, they had Justice on their side, and they were also planning on liberating their Asians brothers from the Tyranny of the western imperialist

Tojo had no real power over the military. At best he could sort of direct it.

Hell, the navy covered up the Battle of Midway so thoroughly that only Hirohito and some admirals were told. Tojo only learned they lost the battle seven months after it happened.

Well they certainly succeeded in liberating millions of unwilling women from their virtue

No, the US crushed them using 1/5th of its total war effort. They might have beaten Britain and the other European powers had America stayed neutral but ofc they went full banzai and attacked the worst target possible, and then torpedoed the whole Axis when Hitler foolishly declared war on the US too.

where is the nanjing attack force

Ehhhh, Germany was already doomed.

Was busy gearing up with Unit 731 Research force

no, japan thought they were tough after pearl harbor but the USA literally fucked them during the war. japan had no chance lmao

Is there a source for this picture?

>le americans were the reason of germany defeat maymay

EVERY
BLADE
OF
GRASS

I can assure you this is the original

>English
>giving the french any credit
>french
>giving the English any credit

I'm sorry your racist, xenophobic, stereotypical viewpoints have been crushed. This is the reality.

KARA BOGA

I disagree, both sides were nearing collapse, and without the Americans there is no D-Day. Likely the war would have gone on for years longer than it did.

FREEDOM'D

This is a nonsense question. They were on the verge of surrendering. All they wanted was a guarantee that the emperor wouldn't be a war criminal, innit.

They shouldn't have started it then, should they? In b4
>abloo bloo bloo the US oil sanctions were stopping them from genociding the Chinks!
Don't care. Start shit, get hit.

Yeah. Bloody civilians guilty by association.

Yes.

Had they focused on their long-range submarines (Cruiser Submarines Type B) rather than on aircraft carriers and battleships, they could have won.

These submarines could have operated in the South Atlantic (with several of them in the role of resupply boats) and disrupted the shipping of resources from South America and Africa to the US.

The Allied war production was almost completely dependent on these imports. Cut for example the import of manganese to the US, which is vital for high quality steel production, and the US Navy would never have been able to build all those carriers, battleships, cruisers, destroyers, etc.

The South Atlantic was always the Achilles heel of the Allies but few realized this at the time.

How does one conceal the loss of four aircraft carriers and thousands of sailors exactly?

>Tojo only learned they lost the battle seven months after it happened.

is this for real
what the fuck

And when the allies cover their convoys with protection? Corvettes, destroyers, airplanes? Stuff that you can't hope to fight with Cruiser B subs? When you're operating some 5-6 thousand miles from your closest bases of operations in the Marshalls, how are you even going to FIND these convoys, let alone mass in sufficient numbers to overcome their defenses? German U-boats operating at much shorter distances in much greater numbers against far more weakly defended (and clearly more vital) convoy shipments were unable to even stop the British from accelerating the continual increase of their war economy. What makes you think Japan can do better operating in much worse conditions?

For that matter, I'd like a citation on how the shipping from South Ameirca and Africa to the U.S. was vital to the American war effort.

None of the axis powers in any combination could have bean the US or the British Empire in any combination; the best they could have hoped for was a peace agreement.

>France

All they wanted was to keep all their Asian holdings, to keep their emperor, and to deal with their war criminals themselves. None of these were acceptable demands

I think that Germany with the help from Japan's navy could have definitely defeated Britain.

But that would require nips to care about helping Germans all the way across the world while they are dealing with their own empire building and for the US to still remain neutral about this whole crazy shit.

Yes definitily. They shouldve postponed their war for one and solidified themselves in asia. The raw materials from their chinese aqcuisition alone (provided proper organization) couldve ensured an appocalyptic buildup of military equipment and resources.

They should have also conscripted millions of chinese and completeley avoided the islands.

Nivite tge defeated german scientists over and also avoid war with soviets. Even if it costs you korea.

Basicallt they should have started their war in thr 40's, sent one massive shockwave of millions of armed drugged up chinese to zerg rush every major port harbor on the west cost, panama and southern atgentina.
Followed by the entirety of the japanese invasion force. Focus on securing major indusrrial areas on the american mainland and have the engineers use them to mass produce shitty engined metal boxes with guns on them by the hundreds of thousands.
Zerg rush even more chinese in a generally easter direction. Basically nullifying the threat of guerrilla warfar since the entire country will have a chink somewhere in it.
Utilize that brief perion of attrition to unleash bio weapons and to have japanese troops take city by city. Each time using unnarmed civilian prisonars as a meat sheild for the beginning of an assault.
The americans will either be forced to be more like the ussr or they should be conquered within 3 years.

They kept the secret from everyone except admirals and Hirohito and reassigned surviving sailors to faraway posts in SE Asia.

> postponed the war
> raw materials from China
> conscript Chinese

mate...

A huge part of it, yes

>They should have also conscripted millions of chinese and completeley avoided the islands
pic related would have to stop the western warrior

Didnt have to start the war immediately. Could easily have negotiated several amicable surrenders of territory without losing a logistical advantage.

Chineseslaves (already alienated from american /european deal making)work hard. putting them to work in mines. Have them start producing weapons, munition, fuel, vehicles
And theres god damned plenty of matetial in china.

Chinese can easily be conscripted and given shitty smoothbore weapons. You think white americans can tell the dufferenece/would even care when they see 100s of thousands of them pooring out of whats left of sanfransisco?
No the whites will do what they always do with nonwhites, theyll shoot them when they can.
Forcing the Chinese conscripts into situations where they have to fight back.
The fact that they wont have access to maps or local knowledge of supplies and food and shit also means launching a rebellion against japan while in america and also being attacked by muricans makes it a death sentence.

Its a very practical possibility.

If the US hadnt joined the war against germany its very likely the Ostrofront would have ended in stalemate.

But they tried to subdue the Chinese, failed to do so quickly enough, were embargoed and therefore had to attack.

Your entire plan rests on the premise that the Chinese wouldn't fight back.

Never in a million years could Japan have landed any significant troops in the mainland USA even with a sneak attack.

You do realize that what those subs would destroy would have been drops in a very large bucket.
Long story short your plan is retarded and it wouldnt have amounted to anything

Chinese puppet soldiers already performed miserably against their Chinese counterparts. What makes you think they'd stand a chance against even a few divisions of the US army?

Yep, and even if they did they would get torn to pieces within days.

>Get trade embargoed
>makes it harder to enslave china
>autistically invade another large population, high land mass country with better weapons and is thousands of miles further
>it was their only option

Astounding logic mein kaiser

they killed over 300 burgers with a force of ZERO.

>already bogged down in a massive country with a hostile population
>'lmao lets do this again'
still smarter than most of IJA high command tbqhwyf

It was certainly possible. They would have had to develop different comm procedures but an attack could have been done rather pleasantly in the same way britain pulled off its argentina raid but with ww2 era technology and half a million ships instead of a few planes.

First off manchukuo soldiery wasnt meant to be victorious. Their function was fulfilled and it was more or less defensive.
The same can be said of the chinese conscripts.
The massive numbers of them the surrender and or get meatgrinded is meant to cause dissaray and to keep serious firepower away from real military assets. I.e. japanese soldiery/ equipment

The simple fact is the US will have a tough time even communicating with them let alone directing them one way or another even if they arent chaotically attacking /surrendering/ breaking into houses looking for food.
Their function will be fulfilled.
After a period of consolidation the japs just round them up and send half a million more shit ships filled with them and start round two, only this time they have the western seaboard.
And strategically important argentine panaman ports.

>be Private Nip
>invade America
>realize Americans are more prosperous, freer, and have more fappable animated cartoons than your shitty country
>entire invasion force defects to the Americans within hours

>freer

having no foreskins isn't a bonus, paco.

>parents are free to choose whether or not to follow religious law and circumcise their the sons

Boy, you sure proved me wrong.

>paco

Don't have a drop of Spanish in me.

the fuck kinda delusions are these?

just like how well the uboats worked right

>son, you're a free man
>so give me back my foreskin
>sorry son, we decided israel needed it more than you

so free

My platoon defends Kanto from the wh*Tes advance. My gun is ready, my katana is oiled, and I am writing haiku. I embrace my brothers and kiss the photo of Emperor Kurohito.

I shoot the wh*Tes until I'm out of ammo, then I fight with my sword, then I fight with my fists. The wh*Tes are far weaker than me me but we are outnumbered. I finally fall, and the wh*Tes still shoot at me from a distance like cowards.

Wh*Te dogs are gettig closer. I draw my knife to commit seppuku, and plunge it into my belly. Then my second is shot, and I collapse to die a slow and painful death. As my life fades, I see a light, and my ancestors welcome me to the homeland, Africa. I have arrived, brothers

>just like how well the uboats worked right
They worked quite well against the bongs, lad.

Nah. jmss.org/jmss/index.php/jmss/article/view/236/251

Why the fuck did it take Nippon so long to try and conquer China?

this is the quality shit I come to Veeky Forums for

the only way for Japan to come up with some form of victory is for a far more successful Pearl Harbor forcing the usa into a quick armistice

Even if every single ship in Pearl Harbor is sunk, how do you force the U.S. into a "quick armistice"? You can't threaten the U.S. itself, and the Americans have virtually unlimited potential to build new ones.

Even if Germany with both the Japanese and Italian navies couldn't have dealt with the Royal Navy

The Japanese destroyed the bong navy quite easily when they went up against it. The bongs proved themselves incapable of modern naval warfare, basically. Absent the US they would have been doomed in your scenario.

Europowers were pissed they horned in. On their turf so they tried choking their supply and funding the chinese like they always do.

Yah.

If you have something to say, lad, you should say it. Posting dead links really isn't saying anything.

>No, Japs were only good at picking on countries weaker than them
The same you can say about the USA.

Why is it that neo-nazis are inevitably always amerimutts with zero drops of germanic blood, but there are just as many japs defending Imperial Japan as there are weebs doing it?

Japan wasn't doing that well against the Chinese, and they weren't armed and xenophobic to the degree that Americans were in the 40's.

Because post-occupation nips were allowed to have national pride, modern Germans still aren't allowed.

The Japanese destroyed that portion of the bong navy that could be spared to defend colonies literally on the other side of the planet while Britain was facing off against Germany right across the channel.

>German surface fleet
>a concern for the British in 1942

>The Japanese easily destroyed whatever the bankrupt and incompetent bong navy sent out.

FIFY

Was it a major concern should it come to battle? No.

Did it mean they still had to keep a great deal of the fleet in Britain/Europe generally to act as a deterrent? Yes.