Can it be rational and/or intelligent to still believe in Christianity?

Can it be rational and/or intelligent to still believe in Christianity?

It's irrational and idiotic not to.

I'd like to know how honestly. I am not educated at all on theology. All I've heard was your standard Catholic line - believe it because it's true.
Never interested me enough to learn how educated Christians argue for god.

I have yet to see convincing arguments against the fact that there are inconsistent and competing faiths based on the same evidence- revelation.

How does one believe that Christianity is more correct than Islam or Judaism or any other religion where God allegedly told some group of people what his will was? They are at odds with each other, and being a supernatural matter it comes down to your environment of birth and random chance which religion seems the best.

There are countless other dilemmas. Why is there necessarily a personal god in the first place? How do you address the problem of evil? What about people born before or far away from the word of God? Why is the Bible, a man made compilation of texts deemed connected by man, somehow the irrefutable word of God? Why does it contradict itself so much?

etc etc

No

Yes Infact only the truly ignorant do not.

C.S. Lewis does a good job starting with nothing and getting to a deist position in "Mere Christianity".

I'd like to see your evidence that Jesus is not God, and I'd like to see your evidence that Jesus did not rise from the dead.

Lacking all such evidence, all you can plead is ignorance, and ignorance is never persuasive.

...

God revealed God's things to God's people.

The devil revealed lies to the devil's people.

It isn't really difficult; it's not the "revelation" that matters, but the person who is doing the revealing.

Case in point.

If you mean Christianity in the sense of the belief that theres a lot to be learned from Jesus and his wisdom, then yes. The actual contents of the Bible will help a lot in personal growth. Institutionalized religion though is basically submitting yourself to becoming a slave/going to boring lectures

Lewis' arguments can be thrown out, he claims that morality is objective.

Know a tree by its fruit. Jesus Christ is the most influential single human being in history and His teachings have shaped human culture more than any other religious figure. That a homeless Jew from a backwater Roman province who was executed as a criminal could have a greater global impact than every emperor or philosopher who ever lived is compelling evidence that it is powered by the Spirit of Almighty God.

intelligent yes but the arguments from christian apologetic don't have me convinced (apart from the pragmatic value of religion)

>How does one believe that Christianity is more correct than Islam or Judaism or any other religion
The ressurection

That's not Christianity. That's Judaism.

>Institutionalized religion though is basically submitting yourself to becoming a slave
how so

It is.

"But the most remarkable thing is this. whenever you find a man who says he does not believe in a real right and Wrong, you will find the same man going back on this a moment later. He may break his promise to you, but if you try breaking on to him he will be complaining 'It's not fair' before you can say Jack Robinson. A nation may say treaties do not matter, but then, next minute, they spoil their case by saying taht the particular treaty they want to break was an unfair one. But if treaties do not matter, and if there iis no such ting as Right and Wrong--in other words, if there is no Law of Nature--what is the difference between a fair treaty and an unfair one? Have they not let the cat out of the bag and shown that, whatever they say, they really know the Law of Nature just like anyone else?"

t. C.S. Lewis

Your status: #rekt

Jesus is God, and he rose from the dead.

There are no arguments in Christianity. Just believing the truth.

How is the Resurrection not a myth? Never been repeated, been claimed by all kinds of people, little to know evidence.

...

>Never been repeated, been claimed by all kinds of people, little to know evidence.

Is that the definition of a myth?

I'm not claiming it's not a myth I only stated it as the primary reason for Christians holding their faith as true against the others.

Most people believing in morality doesn't mean that morals are objective.

Lewis is pointing out that even if people claim morality is not objective they behave as though it is because even relativists will appeal to some kind of sense of justice when they get the raw end of a deal.

Without God, there is no objective basis for morality.

What you call good, in your opinion, I call evil, in my opinion, and neither of us have a claim to objectivity. We just have differing opinions.

What you refer to as common morality is you basically stealing your morality from God.

(most) people believe there is right and wrong
people have different ideas about what is right and wrong (even between members of religions)

Morality is more about good and evil than right and wrong.

People's beliefs rarely line up with their behavior and the fact is that regardless of whether someone claims to not believe in right and wrong they will feel "wronged" if someone abuses them.

Not rational but definitely intelligent

I believe it is rational to choose God, good, life and heaven over the devil, evil, death and hell.

In fact, making the other choice should be considered the most irrational choice a man can ever make.

>someone claims to not believe in right and wrong
My main point is that people have different beliefs about what is right and wrong. Let's not get caught up in arguing about whether there is a small fraction of people that believe (and act) as if there is no right or wrong. We can agree that basically everyone believes there is morality.

>I believe I am rational
sounds like faith to me

Faith is the human ability to believe what you have not seen. Everyone has faith, in different amounts, and everyone uses it to get through their life. It's not a religious quality, but a human ability.

And yes, by faith I can know Jesus rose from the dead, even though I was not an eyewitness to the event.

Yes choosing which beliefs are right and wrong is ultimately a matter of faith but my point is that human beings are hard wired to acknowledge the "right" and "wrong" as transcendent categories that actually exist in reality and are not mere social constructs.

As the original user asking...
I think ignorance is more convincing here. We just don't know and I don't how the burden on proof isn't on the people supporting Christianity.
I'm not evangelizing atheist or agnosticism, just saying that's where my brain always goes and saying it's my job to disprove Jesus seems bizarre, arbitrary and clearly designed to be an impossible task.

There are two people. Both are ignorant.

One remains ignorant, noting he is ignorant.

The other goes out into the world to collect information and evidence in order to rid himself of his ignorance.

What you're dealing with here is Law, God's Law. Ten Commandments kind of stuff.

And ignorance of the law has never been and never will be a valid defense.

>it's my job to disprove Jesus seems bizarre, arbitrary and clearly designed to be an impossible task.

And yet that is your conclusion. That you have disproven the divinity of Christ Jesus, and his resurrection.

Based on literally nothing.

Read Josh McDowell's "Evidence That Demands A Verdict" and "More Evidence That Demands a Verdict."

The information is out there.

You have to develop an appetite for it.

Do you make an effort to familiarize yourself with the doctrines of every other religion?

Yes, including studying comparative religions at the university level.

It changes nothing.

>I'd like to see your evidence that Jesus is not God, and I'd like to see your evidence that Jesus did not rise from the dead.
Wtf im a mudslime now
Quran said Muhammad and he totally ascended to heaven on borak and therefore it's true (and it's everyone's job to prove otherwise)

*Muhammad is a pretty cool guy

No, unless being pathological liars or having cognitive dissonance count as rational/intelligent.

The muslims have the unique distinction of being the only people in that part of the world to deny the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

By a guy who lived 600 years after the event.

True son of the father of lies you are. Your daddy must be proud. Oh, no, wait, he hates you intensely and wants you to share his horrific fate.

there's a 99% chance he's an atheist y'know

How can a man be a 99% fool?

Argumentum ad populum isn't enough to prove us wrong, my polytheist friend :^)

I stay away from religion threads most of the time because you retards don't even care about basic logic there. However, even then when I just curiously lurk at them, twice I've witnessed Christians being dishonest with their attempts to win debates and to proselytize. Must be nice having to invent lies, dodge the questions or be intentionally obscurantist every time your flimsy faith being in danger. It's like a switch-on, clear as day whenever you change attitudes.

Wrong attack, numbnuts. A man 600 years after the event has absolutely no chance of being an eyewitness to the event.

And there are many eyewitness accounts to the event.

And virtually every Roman, Greek, and Jewish historian of the time recorded the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

Only your demon possessed madman denies it.

There are two spiritual fathers. God, who is not your spiritual father, and the devil, who is. One of the names of the devil is the father of lies, as he invented lies, and speaks nothing but lies.

You think Christians are dishonest when they tell you the truth because you are a reprobate.

Careful you don't fall off that high horse, friend. It's a long way down.

>Wrong attack, numbnuts. A man 600 years after the event has absolutely no chance of being an eyewitness to the event.
The Holy Quran was given to humanity from Jannah by Allah (exalted may He be) Himself, not written by barely literate cultists like your Bible.

>And there are many eyewitness accounts to the event.
What they saw was altered later - for source, see Quran

>And virtually every Roman, Greek, and Jewish historian of the time recorded the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
All of them were (and still are) sinful and misguided, think about it - why would they say Isa (PBUH) didn't ascend to Heaven? Because that would say God Almighty favours Him. They portrayed Him as weak and full of doubt (Elloi, elloi, lama sabachtani?) Besides, they also made up Trinity - God is ONE.

>Only your demon possessed madman denies it.
I will pray for you that you may stop YOUR madness and be saved by the Grace of Allah, friend.

>twice I've witnessed Christians

You lack the spiritual discernment to tell Christian from non-Christian.

In fact, your entire post lacks any relevant content. Maybe you should continue to avoid all religious threads, if this is your contribution to them.

the quran was written after Mohammad died, and was enforced by Uthman. It contained, and still contains, abrogated suras, satanic verses, and the influence of Mansur.

It's a joke to say it is an eternal book, yet had to be changed, and altered, and contains absolutely lunatic scientific errors in it.

>Grace of Allah

Satan lacks all grace, saves nobody, and you should call him Ba'al, as your ancestors did.

Are you ashamed to worship as your ancestors did? Are you ashamed of Ba'al worship, when you yourself participate in it?

Or maybe you should all stay away completely from Veeky Forums and move to /x/, if you want all threads to become psychiatric therapies for self-induced schizos.

It amazes me that intelligent people can believe the bible. I dropped it 12 years ago in the middle of my teenage years because my 14 year old brain was enough to see it was bullshit.

How the fuck can grown ass men still believe in this stupid fucking fairytale?

They are not grown adults, mentally. That's why.

One thing. Give me one thing your adolescent brain found in the bible that was wrong.

you're the children covering your heads in the dark for fear that the numinous will reach you, not us.

>the quran was written after Mohammad died, and was enforced by Uthman. It contained, and still contains, abrogated suras, satanic verses, and the influence of Mansur.
Why would great Uthman and Mansur lie about God and doom themselves to the eternal fire, being muslims themselves?

>It's a joke to say it is an eternal book, yet had to be changed, and altered, and contains absolutely lunatic scientific errors in it.
Like the Bible? Oh right, every contradiction in the Bible does not exist because apparently divinely inspired apostles can't speak different things, even if they don't make sense when compared... or that out of countless gospels, only 4 are true because a bunch of old dudes obsessed with prosetylizing said so... or how Comma Johanneum was a later addition and considered \divinely inspired by the Roman Catholics until proven to be false :)

Because they worship the devil, not God.

The bible has no contradictions; the quran has at least 6 ways that man was created, and they are mutually exclusive.

Not to mention sperm being kept in a man's spine.

>When the muslims ruled Europe.

kek

>Comma Johanneum

Origen cutting it out of the Textus Alexandrius does not make it false.

It makes Origen a heretic.

>the fact that there was no more proof for this being true than other myths
>that people find it comforting to believe in life after death
>that good people never exposed to Christianity would still go to hell

>What is a metaphore
You, Christians, as misguided and hateful as you may be, should know it well :)

So, nothing. You found nothing in the bible that is wrong.

I know what a metaphor is. Is a metaphore like a metaphor?

There is a price to be paid for forgiveness that allah never pays. And never promises. He is a trickster, a deceiver, a plotter and planner, and nothing you can do can ensure your way into paradise.

You re still a teaneger

...

He'll find out the hard way.

Oh okay how about the first page of Genesis? The order of creation is wrong. Oceans on Earth existed before the sun and then the land came out of the water? Are you fucking kidding me dude?

Almost no one I know in their 20's is religious, it's just not normal around here.

Maybe in your backwards ass fucking cornfield Jethro

false assumptions. He's not that famous anywhere but in the middle east and europa.
Famous in the sense that many people were driven by their faith to believe in him. There are still many Hindus and Buddhists, etc.

You should know by now that English is not my primary language ;)
Allah (ASWT) is the most merciful, and I hope you will see the Truth sooner - as you will see it later
I must go though, it's almost past half 9 o'clock, and I need rest to be productive at work
Allah be with you, friends :)

This has got to be shitposting

I love Kierkegaard, but yes

>I'd like to see your evidence that Jesus is not God, and I'd like to see your evidence that Jesus did not rise from the dead.

Faggot you're the one making claims, so you're the one that must produce the evidence. Also Occam's razor, and stop believing in spooks, *tips fedora*.

It is, and Allah is the same as YHWH.

Quranism shows you how similar the God that created Jesus and Moses really is.

/thread

Even if he was the most influential single human (not true, in fact there's some theories he might not have even existed due to disagreeing sources in the gospels) this would in no way require any supernatural input. *Someone* has to be the most influential human in all of history, of course, the person who is, probably has a widely followed religion.

belief - faith more precisely - and rationality are at odds with each other.

Rationality is an illusion, as demonstrated by neuroscience, as ironic as that sounds.