>Ukraine declares independence after revolution
>imperially reconquered by USSR
>after having independence stripped away, have property and food seized by forced collectivization policies
>Not allowed to talk about people starving or you disappear
>Stalin continues to sell grain abroad as people starve
How is the Holodomor not intentional and Stalin's fault? It feels like Tankies just are trying real hard not to get a genocide attached to their name.
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tankies are retards. Even the guy who came up with the word genocide said that the holodomor was a genocide
>In 1953, in a speech given in New York City, Lemkin described the Holodomor as the "destruction of the Ukrainian nation" and as the "classic example of Soviet genocide," going on to point out that "the Ukrainian is not and never has been a Russian. His culture, his temperament, his language, his religion, are all different... to eliminate (Ukrainian) nationalism... the Ukrainian peasantry was sacrificed...a famine was necessary for the Soviet and so they got one to order... if the Soviet program succeeds completely, if the intelligentsia, the priest, and the peasant can be eliminated [then] Ukraine will be as dead as if every Ukrainian were killed, for it will have lost that part of it which has kept and developed its culture, its beliefs, its common ideas, which have guided it and given it a soul, which, in short, made it a nation... This is not simply a case of mass murder. It is a case of genocide, of the destruction, not of individuals only, but of a culture and a nation."
bump
>inb4 "b-but the fucking kulaks burned the grain! Ukrainians shooting themselves in the foot!"
Fuck off commies, if the government started fucking over your entire ethnic group and labeling anyone who doesn't bend over as enemies of the state, you'd also start trying to fight back. And besides, the burned grain wouldn't have helped the famine since Stalin would've sold it for well under the market price to make the leadership some extra pennies.
>muh 30 gorillion
Haha holy fuck and people act like the Holocaust’s numbers are inflated haha
Hahaha /leftypol/ deserting and not replying like /pol/ when they get btfo in a Holocaust thread
Ukrainians deserved it
It was intentional who’s saying it’s not?
Reminder that the Holodomor is widely recognized as genocide in the West outside of a few isolated (mostly russophilic) groups and the only denial comes from the Putin str00nk vatnik camp
You’ll get /leftypol/ low key denying it was because they don’t want genocide associated with communism like fascism.
how was it even possible too? in 1910 ukraine's population was like 5 million
Ukraine became Soviet before the USSR existed and was one of the founding countries of the USSR.
Most of the USSR leaders were Ukrainian.
Not only ukranians suffered, there were similar numbers of russians and kazakhs, not to mention other minor nations. So quite bitching about evil russians, and start bitching about morons who thought immidiate collectivisaion is good idea
I for one love the kolhoz 3 cheers for comrade stalin the one and true god king of the soviet republic.
brezhnev wasn't ukrainian though kruschev was. ukrainians like the cossacks fought against the reds and were the last to be defeated during the civil war.
Bump
en.m.wikipedia.org
The Ukrainians fought with the poles
>Ukrianians were a singular indivisible entity, because wiki shows yellow-blue flag on Polish side
>Wikibattle-posting
>Mobile-posting
shameful display
the "Holodomor" is literally a Goebbels propaganda story to justify the Nazi conquest of Ukraine and the actions of Ukrainian collaborators
>those Russikes control the weather with laser waves!!!
Kulaks deserved it.
>food shortages
>take away most of the food from a huge occupied region
>everyone starves
>hurr we don't control the weather XD
Krushchev wasn't Ukrainian, both of his parents were ethnic Russians and he was even born in RSFSR. It's a fucking urban myth created by buttmad Russian commies and stalinists. Brezhnev likewise wasn't Ukrainian either, the only Ukrainian was Chernenko and he ruled for like a few months before he died.
>burn food
>food shortages
couldn't see that coming
Ukraine independence was product of Brest-Litovsk, it was created by Germans and had no sense.
Stalin was retard who literally killed millions but one of the main reasons Ukraine famine was overzealous actions of local authorities who were composed of Ukrainians themselves.
Don Cossacks were never Ukrainian you dumb fuck.
No it's not.
>r-russophila
What do actions of a Georgian communist dictator have to do with Russians?
I bet you don't even get the problem, the problem is that Soviet actions were not directly targeting Ukrainians as a group. There was high mortality in Russia and Kazakhstan too.
For it to be a GENOCIDE, as opposed to just a criminal negligence/crime/whatever, you would have to prove Stalin had direct intent to destroy Ukrainian nation.
>export 4 million tons of grain while experiencing a food shortage
>famine
Whoa... who could have seen that coming.
Not that not burning the food would have help, since Stalin would have just exported it all or send it to the Belorussian SSR or RSFSR.
So it doesn't look like I'm talking out of my ass, here. Here is how accepted is the claim that Holodomor was a genocide of Ukrainians. Literally butthurt belt (inb4 only vatniks use that term!1111), Mexico, two SA countries, and Canada which has a huge Ukrainian minority.
Most problematic and most disgusting thing here is that Ukrainians don't give two fucks about this, they are only using it for nationalist purposes, in order to pin it on Russians as whole and present it as a Russian genocide of Ukrainians by jumping through burning mental hoops.
It wasn't genocide, go fuck yourself.
It was however a gross criminal act of communist government, whether intentional or not.
I'm centre-right and try (as much as I can, I recognise we all have biases) to base my opinions either on history or contemporary politics on actual evidence and reasoning.
I don't see much evidence it was a genocide. The fact Communism killed millions of people due to idiotic, fanatical and plain wrong ideas about economics and agriculture should be enough. There's no need for this "hurr durr it was a genocide or you are a tankie" nonsense, that is illogical thinking.
Exactly. Genocide is a clearly defined international crime. You can't just call everything a genocide.
By this logic, TYW was Swedish genocide of Germans. Ridiculous nonsense.
It was a genocide but it wasn't done by Russians but by kikes. Blaming Russians is the typical gatekeeper bullshit and some (((individuals))) in the Ukraine really, really want to pin it all on Russians while absolving people like (((Kaganovich))).
>kikes
What "kikes"? By then, Stalin pretty much had full control.
Are you arguing Stalin was a "kike"?
Maybe if the Ukrainian didn't manage to piss off both Red and White during the Civil War, they would have done better?
I literally just namedropped Kaganovich you illiterate nigger.
Kaganovich had no power on his own. He survived exactly because he was loyal to Stalin like a dog.
...
TYW?
60 million is a laughable claim for Stalin's death count. You don't need to exaggerate in order to make Communism look terrible. All you are doing is enabling imbeciles that want to make it look good by spreading silliness.
quality post
Thirty Years' War.
>Not that not burning the food would have help, since Stalin would have just exported it all or send it to the Belorussian SSR or RSFSR.
>we wuz retards, but it didn't matter anyway
Yeah sure...
Fuck off /leftypol/
Old map, nice try.
The blue is growing every day Ivan.
...
First, source for that.
Second, I'm not Ivan.
Third, I don't give a fuck about your childish nationalist delusions.
I explained my reasoning in the previous two posts, and literally every unbiased historian and legal expert will agree with it.
Famine in 30s was horrible and criminal and immoral act of communist government, but it's not a GENOCIDE of Ukrainians, and especially not RUSSIAN genocide of Ukrainians.
Now either address my arguments (for example by showing that Stalin had genocidal intent), or go away. Calling people ''Ivan'' or ''vatnik'' won't save you from the trouble of offering actual arguments, this isn't /k/ or /pol/.