Serious question, why should someone who doesn't care about powerlifting, and only cares about strength, aesthetics and health do squats and deadlifts? They're very technical lifts that require a lot of mobility and flexibility to do properly. They're certainly great for gaining strength and muscle but there are other exercises that can hit the areas that those lifts hit, with less risk of injury. It's very difficult to get perfect form on these lifts and if you don't do them properly, there is a high risk of injury. Most people I see at the gym have terrible form. They just rip the bar off the floor without properly setting up and bracing themselves. These people are eventually going to snap their shit up. Hell even if you have perfect form you can still snap your shit up.
read SS and you'll understand otherwise if you roid then there's no point in doing them, just do bro splits
Thomas Adams
I came to this realization a while back too, op. maybe due to my poor form or weak lower back or whatever it was, back squats and conventional deadlifts were making my lower back feel like total shit, to the point where even getting up from a sitting position was awful. I realized that I really just wanted to get a stronger lower body and had no real attachment to the movements themselves, so I dropped them in favor of other movements that worked the same muscle groups, but are easier on my lower back. I'm now doing lifts I prefer greatly over back squats (I've always hated doing them) and actually enjoying myself
Nathaniel Gray
>why should someone who cares about strength do the two dominant lifts for building strength
wat
>They're very technical lifts that require a lot of mobility and flexibility to do properly. False, only standard hip flexibility is required, either way this is irrelevant for strength gains.
>They're certainly great for gaining strength and muscle but there are other exercises that can hit the areas that those lifts hit, with less risk of injury. Also false. If you're thinking of leg presses you're an idiot. Good mornings are great for hips but also extremely lacking compared to both squat and deadlift and arguably just as dangerous
I only squat 170kg but I'm hard pressed to find someone who knows what they're doing that's damaged themselves on less than 300kg squat. Deadlift is slightly more easy to fuck up but again, it all comes down to the person taking the time to do it correctly
Jackson Long
You realize standard form deadlift is a lower back exercise right? Sore lower back means youre doing it right. Doms will set in like any other muscle that you hit hard
Justin Cook
>Sore lower back means youre doing it right. Doms will set in like any other muscle that you hit hard
False, pain only comes when you're lifting too much weight or have shitty form with deadlift. Muscle soreness/DOMS is separate but also shouldn't really exist with a deadlift unless you're lifting too much
That said, deadlift makes your lower back stronger and safer, so his post is retarded regardless
Brody Evans
>why should someone who only cares about strength and aesthetics do them
>they're great for strength training
nice you answered yourself, now go ass to grass pussy
Ryan Myers
>False, only standard hip flexibility is required, either way this is irrelevant for strength gains. is this bait?
Eli Bailey
Squats and deadlifts aren't the only way to get stronger.
Ethan Wood
Lower back DOMS is my favorite second to chest and lat DOMS though
Landon Cooper
This wasn't DOMS sore though, this was "i think i slipped a disc or something" sore. my lower back was also abnormally straight/flat for a little while.
no. Deadlifting is pretty much the simplest compound lift there is. t. 250kg deadlifter
Jason Peterson
Nothing can give you the benefits of squats with lower risk of injury. Leg extensions are much more dangerous for knees and leg press is more dangerous for both lower back and knees while being less effective.
Reasons are that leg extensions put large shear forces on your knee and leg press locks you in to a position that gives you reduced ROM and causes spinal flection to compensate.
Benjamin Barnes
only watched about half but you have to be retarded if you don't think ankle mobility is a limiting factor in a deep squat for a lot of people.
Isaiah Ross
but they are the easiest things to do TO get stronger
Gavin Hernandez
False
Michael Mitchell
Risk of injury is very low and they are much more fun than the alternatives.
Jeremiah Lewis
see the timestamp, you fool
rip has coached thousands of people to squat and has encountered 4 people who could squat below parallel withins 2 days of training.
sure, if you want to squat muh ayteegee highbar you might need more ankle flexibility, but its not an absolute.
William Allen
4 people who couldn't squat below parallel*
Grayson Phillips
>second to chest and lat DOMS How the fuck do I get lat DOMS? I can't recall ever getting it
Thomas Torres
I get them doing diddlys sometimes. That's probably a bad sign though.
Nolan Perez
They require minimal flexibility, are the two most natural human movements, use more muscles than almost any other single movements and along with the push press are the greatest tests of overall body strength.
The only reasons you shouldn't squat or deadlift is if you have a severe injury, or degenerate or chronic condition that prevents you from doing so without pain.
Stop being a fucking vag.
Luke Gray
being able to squat below parallel /= being able to squat below parallel with heavy weight, proper form, and no biomechanical compensations
Ian Lopez
How can I learn proper form for squats? I love squats but yesterday when I squated 17.5 kg I got a pain at the base of my spine ,I'm thinking it's because my back wasn't neutral but I don't know how to check my own form to keep it neutral
Evan Cooper
Record yourself.
Owen Brooks
>Doms shouldn't exist in deadlift
U wot? Thats the number one complaint with diddy's, that's why everyone foamroles the fuck out of their back. This nigga knows, trips confirms
A slipped disc would put you in a wheel chair dawg. It sounds like you might've strained your back muscle tendon's and given yourself tendinitis if it was that intense. I did that to my triceps doing dragonflags and it felt like someone took a hammer to my arm for weeks. The muscle insertions run right along your vertebrae so it can feel like spinal pain when it's still technically muscular pain. Neither is ideal but a strained tendon isn't a big deal if you give it rest. Probably just lifted too heavy senpai, diddies need slow, gradual progression. Even if it feels like the big primary muscles can handle it, you should start low and increase slowly; there's a bunch of stabilizing muscles that need to catch up to your massive lower back and hamstrings when you first start to dl.
Charles Howard
>with heavy weight its easier to squat below parallel with weight, if anything >proper form so you think rip is making them squat with shit form just to boast about them being deep squats on a youtube video? >biomechanical compensations nice buzzword you retard
Wyatt Ward
I'm not in a gym right now and I don't have weights at home but looking in a mirror while squatting bodyweight I see that my hips stop moving just before I hit paralell which rounds my lower back a bit ,is this normal? What can I do to correct this?
Caleb Morales
Compound lifts are the most effective exercise for natural strength training and bodybuilding because they train a variety of muscles at once and can be repeated multiple times a week. Nattys need to train each muscle multiple times per week because the physical exertion from exercise only stimulates muscle growth for 48 hours following the workout.
If you use fraud you can get a full week of benefit hitting one muscle, so bro splits work too.
Jose Taylor
That's buttwink, you can fix it by working on ankle mobility. Also watch this video.
If you got pain from 18 kg then you do some unloaded bodyweight squats to improve form. Getting pain at that weight is very unusual because it's barely even loading your spine/back.
Make sure you are keeping your back straight through the whole exercise. If you're twisting your back around, flexing and extending, then you're liable to hurt yourself.
Hudson Peterson
Ass to grass.
Julian Butler
>squat >They require minimal flexibility HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA 90% of the human population is lacking the flexibility to perform the most simple of squats, they require ALOT of mobility, please don't open your mouth on this subject again
Anthony Collins
>90% of the human population is lacking the flexibility to perform the most simple of squats [citation needed]
i get that, its a good sign bcus its meant to hit your upper back too
Elijah Nguyen
Nice source you got there m8.
You.obviously have no idea what you're actually talking about. Don't open your mouth on the subject again until you've educated yourself at least a little bit.
Ethan Murphy
90% of overweight untrained Americans maybe. Even they can reach it with some work. Anyway mobility is important for more than just squatting ability .. everyone should be interested in staying flexible whether or not they lift
Jonathan Baker
How the fuck would dead lift not give you back doms. What muscles get used to straighten back up? Not pain but soreness like any other muscle
Noah Hernandez
>What muscles get used to straighten back up? >straightening during a DL Welcome to snap city.
Brandon Torres
technically you only get DOMS from the eccentric part, which doesnt really exist for the erectors in the deadlift
Elijah James
Biggs what do you mean honestly you have to bend over slightly to grab the bar. Your not standing straight up and you have to bend back some.
Josiah Stewart
it's a good sign as long as you're not feeling doms in your biceps after diddlies.
Brody Diaz
No, but they can't learn how to do it bythemselves, so you can't say that it's a simple movement for modern humans.
Yes, a couple of 1000 people can squat after training mobility for 2 days with a strength coach.
But take 90% of the people of my office, ask them to squat down, and you will see that modern humans have very tight hips, back problems and limited ankle mobility.
Sure, they can learn how to squat after 2 days with a coach, but that's not really "simple" exercising, that's being trained as an athlete by a coach. NOT a simple exercise.
There has been many injures at my gym lately, because people do squats/dl with bad form, as they think its a simple lift that everyone should do.
There are safer and better movements if you want to train your back and legs, only powerlifters should do these movements with heavy weight.
Not even perfect form can prevent injury at 130 kg plus, see this thread for example:
>
Dominic Baker
it's anterior pelvic tilt aka butt wink and it will hurt your lower back. start with making sure your chest is raised and your looking at a point forward and above your head. this will keep the upper half of your spine stable. secondly make sure you are doing low bar squats not high bar squats. thirdly work on flexibility in the deep squat position. no wieght just work on keeping your lower spine neutral by squating with hips first and pushing your knees away from each other.
Henry Rodriguez
Fucking bullshit maybe western people who sit all day...being able to squat is a basic human movement
Camden Brown
>Not even perfect form can prevent injury at 130 kg plus, see this thread for example: Wrong thread, this is the one i was refering too:
Hunter Bailey
most of the population of the planet squats more and has less back pain than the west. dont confuse america with the world.
Carson Robinson
>clueless
Ryder Foster
>implying your office represents in anyway the modern human except for the couple hundred million westeners... The squat requires a normal amount of mobility every human should have if you can not squat you are dysfunctional
Jayden Reyes
So many fucking pussies in this thread. Go do your machine and dumbell workout, I look forward to you making another thread in a years time complaining about shit genetics when your back and quads look like utter dogturd. You'll then tell everyone it was your 'genetics' that prevented you from attaining a remarkable body when infact it was because you were a raging faggot.
Not kidding here either, anything technical with you people and it's the end of the world. If you apply that to every aspect of your life no wonder you're fucking depressed and your friends are miles ahead of you. Special snowflakes everywhere, quit being a massive pussy and squat, bitch.
Cooper Anderson
>squatting to shit in nature = squatting with weight lol
Colton Gutierrez
There is no differnce on mobility requirements for a weigthed squat compared to an unweighted one
Nolan Green
>I'm a weak pussy who doesn't actually want to be strong: the thread
Kevin Anderson
good job moving the goal posts. yeah, squatting requires coaching or reading SS. even if you have awesome mobility, you still need to learn to squat. its not a natural movement, it never was. 3rd world squatting usually involves a rounded back.
so your point doesnt stand. if you get coaching or carefully read SS, you wont have to gain flexibility to squat
Chase Diaz
>implying weightlifting back squat= natural human squat
I feel like this is misleading. if you go and look at pictures of 3rd world people and whatnot doing the natural squat, you'll see that even they, people who use the position on a regular basis, tend to have rounded lower backs and whatnot. mostly because it's not a position one naturally takes to lift anything substantial; people squat down to rest, look at shit, etc. the weightlifting back squat is a more technical movement than the natural squat, and serves a much different purpose
Aiden Sanders
They're not technical lifts at all. Snatch and cj are technical as fuck
Luke Lee
because they go ATG/ have no weight on their back. I've been hiking with a heavy pack and sqatting is the most comfortable way to move. it's sitting that's unnatural.
babies and kids can squat they just stop doing it and lose flexibility. but wieghted or just squatting to rest your legs on the trail the joints are moving in the same path its just how i hold my spine and my depth that changes.
Brandon Collins
Thanks a lot for the help that video made me realize I have awful ankle mobility should I do shallow squats with low weight while I gain mobility or should I do something else?
Eli Hernandez
>They're very technical lifts t. brainlet
Brody Phillips
actually there is fucking dumb Veeky Forums posters this is why i never leave the generals
Aaron Wilson
imagine how hard it is for lanklets and ppl who have long femurs short torsos etc.
Jayden Bell
If you hit your posterior and anterior legs and your lower back there's no reason to back squat or deadlift
Anthony Hernandez
i do deadlifts because i enjoy them. what more is there to say?
Kevin Thomas
lower back pump is kinda painful thu
Lucas Moore
>So why do them if you're not a powerlifter.
because it's fun
Adam Moore
that's kind of my point, though. Babies are able to squat the way they do because of because they almost all (I make this caveat because there may well be lanklet babies i don't know of) have great leverages to do so. Once they start growing, they lose this leverage, which causes the back rounding apparent in pics of 3rd worlders squatting. As for your what you say about squatting with a heavy pack, I feel like you've made my point for me; you have to adapt the movement in order for it to be comfortably load-bearing and safe. I don't think anyone's saying its necessarily difficult to learn how to squat for weightlifting, just that it is different from the natural squat and that if one were to tell an average person to squat by unracking the bar and just squatting with it (I've seen this as a description for how to squat high bar before), they're probably going to snap their shit up.
Ayden King
I must admit you make a good point. Is there really no aesthetic gain from deadlifting or squatting?
Owen Watson
itt >rationalizations for being too much of a faggot to hit the most effective lifts
Lincoln Foster
here's certainly gains to be made by doing them, just none that are exclusive to them.
Kayden Allen
You can usually tell when someone hasn't been doing compounds, they tend to have less impressive physiques (at least for naturals).
strength = aesthetics
Elijah Young
it's comfier to round your back when squatting for a prolonged time. that doesn't mean you can't tighten your core lift your chest and do exactly the same movement with your hips, knees and ankles. Humans have squatted since before we were humans. It's the healthiest way to sit and shit. humans can squat, if you can't you have a disability or have been lazy for way too long. If a human can squat then a weighted squat is the second easiest lift to learn.
my point about the heavy pack is that squatting is the best and most natural way to lift it. even an untrained person knows that sqautting back to pack, strapping up and then standing up with a straight back is easiest.
tl;dr squatting is natural and 90% about hips knees and ankles. if they're mobile you can do any type of squat easily.
Cooper Gonzalez
Someone pls respond
Evan Gonzalez
How can you substitute for deadlifts tho?
Nolan Garcia
hard doesn't mean technical are you legitimately retarded?
Gavin Nguyen
do ankle mobility drills and squat when you can, hold it at the bottom and ease your shins forward. when your ankle mobility is enough to just break parralel in the squat that's all the depth you need, you don't need to go atg. however i wouldn't do half or quarter squats if your program says full squats because the former focus oin your quads too much and can lead to injury.
Wyatt Ramirez
with something like sumo or trap bar deads or jefferson deads. i'm not saying to completely abandon the movement, just choose a variation of it that is the most comfortable for you. if you aren't a power lifter, there's no real reason to be wedded to conventional.
Aaron Davis
>They're very technical lifts that require a lot of mobility and flexibility to do properly.
This just isn't true, m8. They're very simple movements (not easy, simple) compared to a lot of silly shit I see people doing in the gym.
You don't need to take yoga to squat or deadlift.
IMO, Properly executed compound movements have prevented many more injuries than they have caused.
I could be full of shit though.
Easton Hernandez
again, i feel like you're still proving my point. maybe this will clear a bit of the confusion up: I'm saying that the BACK squat is not a natural position humans have taken to lift weight.most of the natural reasons people squat in the low/atg position and have done so is for reasons other than to pick something heavy up off the ground; it's a great movement to shit or look at some tracks on the ground, but it's not the go-to movement. The go-to heavy lifting movement is much closer in my eyes to a zercher squat or a front squat. your point about the heavy pack goes along with this; the back squat movement can be used to carry moderate loads (say, a pack or another person), but the optimized position to pick up really heavy shit keeps the weight off of the spine.
Brandon Price
yeah, it's ego lifters that injure themselves
I believe that people who say you don't need squats are just not willing to do full ROM squats because they cause a lot of DOMS and need focus.
Landon Martin
go-to movement for heavy lifting*
Ryan Phillips
That's stupid. What you said makes SQUATS really difficult for lanklets. Diddlys are easymode with lanklet proportions especially with long arms. Source am skellington
Camden Wood
Even the heaviest lift (deadlift) puts weight on the spine, it has to, the force will go through the spine however the bar is held. Back squats or fronts squats or zercher is down to the individual person but they all aim to put the center of mass as central to the body as possible and backs are better for super heavy loads because the arms are weaker than the upper back. I'm not sure about your poitn at all.
Natural to me means compatible with human biomechanics. No weightlifting is really natural, it's an artifical stress, we do sets and reps and programs to induce muscle growth. Squats use most muscles because it's an important, natural movement pattern.
