Can you really abandon a war and then claim you didn't lose it?

Can you really abandon a war and then claim you didn't lose it?

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pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/30/vietnamese-see-u-s-as-key-ally/
tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00927678.1977.10554150?journalCode=vasa20
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The thing is, America COULD'VE won. The Tet Offensive so hugely ruined the NVA and Vietcong, that they would've eventually come to the negotiating table, and the government would likely have collapsed. But the US is shit at war and didn't capitalize on its victories.

i never contest that we lost in vietnam, but people saying the american military got btfo by a bunch of farmers are objectively wrong

Can you quit a job and then claim you weren't fired?

The US lost,

Anyone who says otherwise has some sort of personal identification with a US "win loss" record or something equally retarded

We were stabbed in the back by communist sympathizers and fellow travelers in the rear who seized upon every setback, every death, as a way to twist the knife a little bit more and break the national spirit to resist communism and defend our allies around the world. "The war can't be won", they said. We can't shed blood around the world, they cried. Better red than dead, they whispered. The inevitable triumph of communism is a good thing, they swore in their hearts. And they succeeded, because the average American for the first time began to waver.

We lost the war, it's just that the war was at home.

Tet ruined the VC, but the NVA was stronger than ever by 1973.

You don't lose a third of your country to enemy conventional forces because you're winning a war.

>military originally oriented towards a conventional battle against the north
>get rolled by gorillas
>reorient your military towards counterinsurgency due to US guidance
>finally overcome the cong
>NVA totally untouched
>USA leaves
>NVA rolls over a military completely unprepared for a conventional war

WE (USA) dropped the ball by not smashing the North. There's no place for half measures in this world. You either try to win or you stay the fuck home.

Those last three bullet points are wrong

>realize that all that beating the VC has bought you is a Korea style stalemate
>Nixon begins to pull out troops
>if they can't win with all the help we've given them, they don't deserve another drop of American blood
>still lose 22,000 KIA during the pull-out phase, because Nixon is trying to give the South the best possible chance of survival
>south still loses hideously in Laos in 1971 and barely holds the line against the Easter Offensive in 1973
>US pulls out with a "good luck morons" as their final goodbye
>by sheer luck, Watergate happens before the inevitable final collapse so the GOP gets to blame everything on Democrats

But the NVA were beaten back to a stalemate and even lost territory during the Easter Offensive in 1972 and its aftermath continuing into 1973. The NVA would have been pushed entirely out of South Vietnam by ARVN forces if ARVN continued to receive US aid, and possibly direct US air support; however, it was extremely clear by 1973 the US had lost the will to even fund ARVN units let alone use direct US air power.

do you actually believe this?

give us a break user. we want a discussion not freikorps tier platitudes.

read a fucken book

NVA had majority support in the South by the time Americans pulled out.

You can't hold a country forever, without support of the people who actually live there. It was just a matter of time. US intelligence knew it, McNamara knew it, and by the Watergate scandal the people were aware of it as well.

The strategy in Afghanistan of 'hears and minds' is a testament to lessons learned since the Vietnam War.

>NVA had majority support in the South by the time Americans pulled out
>mfw the hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese that were sent to "re-education camps", or faced famine conditions thanks to half-assed collectivisation

gg faggots

>The strategy in Afghanistan of 'hears and minds' is a testament to lessons learned since the Vietnam War.
>*negotiates with the Taliban, after ostensibly invading Afghanistan for the purpose of removing the Taliban from power*

What did Ameriburgers mean by this?

You do realize that like a month prior to the Tet offensive Westmoreland declared the Vietnamese were broken? That's why it was a big deal, all the intelligence they had said it was broken before Tet and then it launched its biggest offensive yet

This is mostly nonsense.

Yes, a lot of people in the cities were sent to camps, but the majority of country was rural and quite support of communism and the NVA.

Ho Chi Minh was also a hero that almost everyone looked up to, while the South only had a bunch of bumbling corrupt generals and some house nigger christcuck put in power by the French.

These.
America lost, but I wouldn't say militarily.
They lost some 60,000 men for almost destroying a whole country and killing/getting killed some 2 million Vietnamese.

The war ended in 1973. Paris Peace accord. So yes, yes they can claim that.

It wasn't so much a support of communism as it was being sick of blacks and white cunts traipsing around your country and burning your villages

more like,
you're pissed off at all your coworkers, so you start doing a shit job, then when you start catching hell for it you incite violence among your coworkers
your boss has a heart attack, people start dying so you gun down the whole office, set it on fire, crash out a window and hop in your car
the one guy you kinda like escapes the flames and comes with you back to your place for beer and pizza

>but the majority of country was rural and quite support of communism and the NVA.

Reminder that VC/NVA cadres killed pretty much anyone that supported an independent South Vietnam in the parts of the countryside they controlled

Also
>while the South only had a bunch of bumbling corrupt generals and some house nigger christcuck put in power by the French.

Friendly reminder that Vietnam is increasingly becoming the bitch of the US

pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/04/30/vietnamese-see-u-s-as-key-ally/

Talk about losing the battle but winning the war

>Be fanatically devout Church of the Childfondlers in a country where 90% of people are Buddhist or thereabouts
>Persecute Buddhists, who coincidentally are 90% of your country's religious make-up
And nobody ever asked him "nigga, WTF is wrong witchu???"

I unironically believe removing Diem was a mistake.

Plenty of people did, there was a plan by Lansdale to send Diems autistic brother to Harvard so he had something to do and wasn't it Vietnam stirring up the Catholics and Buddhists, Harvard shot that plan down

Reminder that Buddhist monks were still burning themselves to death due to communist persecution after the war - but for some mysterious reason it's hard for Western journalists to get pictures of religious oppression in communist states. Not that those journalists would've really cared ("if they didn't want to get persecuted, they should stop being cunts 2bh")

tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00927678.1977.10554150?journalCode=vasa20

>Friendly reminder that Vietnam is increasingly becoming the bitch of the US

The US today, is not the US of the past. Just check the demographics. Meanwhile, Vietnam is still run by the Vietnamese and whole. That is what this war was about for them. International Communism and Domino Theory were both memes.

He was surrounded by yes-men and propped up by American support. He lost democratic elections, but was placed into power anyway.

Honestly, Diem might have been the single biggest mistake of the entire war.

It was par for the course with the Reds, I mean you can't expect anything good out of those retards.
What I'm on about is that the 'good' guys were almost equally retarded when it came to actually protecting the people they were supposed to be ruling over.

>That is what this war was about for them.

Ah yes, that's why they embarked on a program of collectivization after the war, and generally toed Marxist doctrine whenever available. Right.

>Domino Theory were both memes.
>Laos falls due to NV supported communist guerillas
>Cambodia falls due to NV supported communist guerilla
>"Well, uh...Thailand and Malaysia didn't! DOMINO THEORY BTFO"

>What I'm on about is that the 'good' guys were almost equally retarded when it came to actually protecting the people they were supposed to be ruling over.

Reminder that the "Buddhist" crisis was over
>A
>FUCKING
>FLAG

Literally fucking Norn Iron-tier tardery

>yeah we left but we totally could have just flooded them with nerve gas if we weren't pussies so there

OH WOW HAHAHAHAHA

>*inhales*

HAHAHAHAHAHA

All the Indochinese commies were already in existence before an independent Vietnam, they weren't going anywhere. At the same time the Sino-Soviet split meant there really wasn't any unified communist thrust into SEA, the Malayan communists had failed already, Suharto was BTFO the commies in Indonesia, Thailand received funding from the Soviets to kill communists

Communists were supportive of self-rule in all former colonialist nations, while Capitalist nations preferred the continuation of colonial rule. It is not that hard to grasp. Same story all over Asia and Africa. Had the French decided not be total dicks about being defeated, Ho Chi Minh would have never turned to Communist support.

That's all well and good but if your the same country that fucking invaded Poland your moral high ground was lost long ago.

Americans achieved their objective of stopping communism from spreading in Vietnam so they won

You don't have to kill all enemies in conventional warfare in order to win.

Achieving the objective is winning.

>Americans achieved their objective of stopping communism from spreading in Vietnam so they won
The absolute state of Veeky Forums.

i think user is heavily emphasizing "their objective" desu

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Yeah, they lost alright

>America lost almost 60,000 lives so that Vietnam could have McDonalds
Truly the land of the free and home of the brave

To be fair, I think it's mostly Bongs and Yuros who bring up the win loss thing as mattering and a strike against US supremacy, ie "HAHAHA you guys lost to farmers with pitchforks". Most Americans seem to admit that the war was a loss, but one of material and lives, not a more significant loss of land or a colony they actually owned. In the long term, containing the Chinese was the only important thing, and with the Chinks retardedly attacking Vietnam later on they sent them right back into the US's sphere of influence anyway.

By definition, no. The purpose of war is to achieve a political objective, and if the objective was to secure South Vietnam for "democracy" (i.e. western capitalism) then we utterly failed.

Also, people saying we won the war militarily are idiots. The US military failed to secure the countryside and counter the VC, which was the core military objective throughout the war.

>so butthurt they had to fund the genocidal Pol Pot just to spite NVA
Should have supported Ho back then and told French to fuck off

But then how will the CIA learn to funnel heroin funds so it dosen't need to rely on government funding?

Yeah and Vietnam lost 850,000 to end up having McDonalds

Truly worth it

The end result is the same
If you don’t turn in your homework it doesn’t matter whether you could have gotten 100 points you didn’t turn it in so you get a 0

They lost, but they COULD have won if they just killed everyone in vietnam or something

The united States signed the Paris accords in 1972 and left and then the north Vietnamese invaded sometime after.

Did the French and English lose world war i because Hitler came barreling across the border in 1940?

The united States won the Vietnamese war deal with it.

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>tfw the NVA liberated Cambodia from US funded Pol Pot.
Makes you think.

They got gommunism so who really won, uma delicia

When the Paris Peace Accords were signed, the NVA controlled a third of the country. See

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Yes, it’s called a white peace.
The US didn’t give a penny in concessions to the communists, just got tired of playing whack-a-mole after 20 fucking years.

half of those killed Vietnamese were Southern Soldiers you nigger

The oddest thing from the war is how many Viets ended up in Texas. I have to imagine it happened because of an extra-large amount of texas soldiers talking about it like some kind of promised land

The US couldn't have invaded North Vietnam without causing WWIII.

>Yuros
It's ironic, because the French actually were btfo by farmers with pitchforks.

k/d ratios don't determine winners
why would you trade 60,000 men for 2 million vietnamese if we didn't get anything out of it