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I am not saying I lift for girls, but when did you come to the realisation as I have, that size, strength and looks, have nothing to do with attracting girls?

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soundcloud.com/musonius-rufus/rebel-yell-20170322-210-john-sevier-todd-lewis
dr.library.brocku.ca/handle/10464/1189
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when i began collage

By having an approachable personality you can have many girls approach you. Unfortunately if you have the (wana kill everybody) face like I do. People tend to stay away from you. Every now and then a person will finally approach me and realize that im actually a kind person. Smile more often, I cant do this because its just the way I am.

When i was ill for a year and a half and lost 20kg of pure muscle, my gf barely noticed and when i began dedicating myself to getting back in shape she really wasn't too concerned.

Subtle bait

>walk around college
>dyels with gfs everywhere
>most guys that obviously lift walk alone

reality is harsh

Girls are attracted to muscluar men because of biological reasons, no matter what they tell you. Stronger men (up to a certain level) signifies that they are healthy and that they can produce stronge and healthier children. Strong men can protect also women better than a male with low amounts of muscle.

But of course, just having a muscular body isn't enough to truly attract a girl. It only does so on a shallow level. If the girl notices that your personality or that your social standing is not what she prefers, she will stop being attracted to you, sooner or later. She will then turn to other men to "spice" her life up. But if your personality matches hers, a good body is increasing the chance of you two staying together in the long term. She might even like your personality, it depends on the girl. If so, the physique definitly helped you attract a girl.

And you don't even have to have a muscluar body to attract a girl, since the days of tribes are over at the moment. Having an attractive outgoing personality combined with humor is well enough to attract most girls.

Having muscles increases the chance of girls being attracted to you, but it does not replace your personality.

Not really, it increases the chance of some girls liking you, decreases the chance with others, and doesn't impact others still. If you are lifting to become attractive to girls you are an idiot.

Fatness absolutely impacts your game

No, you don't need to be strong but you need to be at least average in terms of body mass.

Most college girls are trash feminazis or on the verge of crazy so who gives

This.

Of course there are plenty of girls who prefer introverts but if you just go to logical level, outgoing and attentive male is more attractive ( especially to girls who themselves are outgoing - aka, girls you meet IRL, outside a work situation ).

An introverted guy who lifts a lot can be as unattractive as an introverted couch potato.

Also, there can be a massive difference between people one would like to fuck, and people one actually wants to hang out with.

Being fit has lead to a few other improvements in my life that ended up mattering more. I broke my jaw in high school and had some long term dental issues. Getting fit encouraged me to also spend a lot of time and money fixing my smile. The combination of the two gave me a lot of confidence and it has definitely been a lot better.

It gives me the confidence to talk to girls. I only care if a girl rejects me for how I look. I could give a fuck if it's because of my personality or something else.

A long time ago. All that matters is MONEY

It doesn't matter if you're an ugly piece of shit, if you have money you will get girls.

It doesn't matter if you're Chad, if you're a NEET no girl will enter into a long-term relationship with you

AT MOST you could fuck random girls from Tindr/clubs, no strings attached, while lying or not telling them about your real financial status.

Utterly wrong. The only impact muscles have on a girl is it changes the way other men act around you. Girls care about social standing and if you are high amongst other men they will like you; scrawny or built.

Men do respond to muscle so lifting helps raise yourself up against them. But women dont directly care about it at all.

*tips fedora*

rare pic of mark rippetoe

Having a gf in college when pussy is that easy to obtain is stupid. Those jacked guys sleep with waaaay more women, and don't have to spend very valuable time and money on a gf

> having a committed relationship is stupid when you can be a whore
hello goldberg

Think you missed it
>collage

............ ^^^^ so close


also a bit over a year ago.

girls ignored me and went for the charming, energetic, fun, social, confident, outgoing chubby males

When you're fit you're confident. Girls dig confidence.

Its more about the pecking order between men that is the real underlying factor. If you're stronger and you know you can whoop everyone's ass in the room and all the guys are sub-consciously cowering to your alpha-ness it makes you more confident. You don't need to be strong to be confident, your ace in the whole might be that you have a big dick, you have a nice smile, or you have experience with women. Repetition is a great trainer for confidence.

If you are funny and people are generally having a good time around you this gives you confidence. If you just don't give a fuck and are scrawny but comfortable in your own skin, as long as you aren't in the beta mind state you are fine. Not optimal, but way better than someone who is nervous.

What we are really doing when we lift is looking to become the alpha male around men. We don't wanna take anyone's shit, we wanna be cool, we wanna have the stories and the jokes for our bros. The girls pick up on this and it is really what they are attracted to.

That is my theory, I'm 28 and I've poured over this age old question many a countless night.

any girl who says she doesn't like muscles is an insecure landwhale purposefully looking for a weak male that she can manipulate because anyone would muscles would intimidate her and impose on her shit lifestyle.

That's an "it really fucking depends" statement if I ever saw one. Lean and toned, perhaps, but it's easy to see why something like pic related might be unattractive.

>Not really, it increases the chance of some girls liking you
Correct
> decreases the chance with others
These kinds of girls either have a low social standing themselves, or they think that you have to much of a high standing for them because of your muscle, so they worry that you will cheat on them once you mate. To avoid that from happening, they avoid you, because they feel that you are to good for them. This process is subconscious, and they might panic if you approach them.

And of course, if you're a huge bodybuilder, they think that you wont have time for them. But bodybuilding=/=having some extra muscle compared to the average man.

>If you are lifting to become attractive to girls you are an idiot.
Idiot would be a fitting term for you, as you can't comprehend basic human biology and brain patterns.

99% of girls love bigger muscles on men, because they signify strength and healthiness. Strength that can protect her from threats, and healthiness that can give healthy children.

It's the exact same things with men. Men love big tits on a girl, because it signifies to our subconsciousness that she is fertile and ready to feed your potential children. Men also like big hips on a girl, because it signifies that she is ready to give birth.

Tell me that you don't find a girl with big tits and a fat ass attractive. If you do so, there is something wrong with you. The same things apply to women of fertile age, they love big muscles. How the fuck can you be so ignorant?

Of course, these gay/lesbians/forklift fuckers etc... is not going to be attracted to the things named above, because they have a "unique" mental state. Maybe you fit in one of these categories?

Or, you might have AUTIZM and are to stupid to realise basic social interacting, making this whole conversation meaningless.

Not at all in my experience - most girls who go for muscles are 5/10s who cant get a popular or hot guy so they hide their lack of success by going for a muscular guy and acting like thats what they wanted all along.

Im not having a go, i lift 6 days a week and have done for 11 years now but im not going to argue against reality. Girls go for popularity and face, muscle really doesnt feature high on their list. Ive been in a relationship for years so i can ask female friends about their preferences openly and usually if muscle is bought up its "i dont really like muscles". Then out of my male friends its the PTs and frauds who have the most trouble with girls. Im 6'3 so guess thats what won me a hot girlfriend but it wasnt muscles.

> 99% of girls love bigger muscles on men
Literally the other way around

sure they do

I like how you develop your argument and I agree with all of it. However when you insult someone you're only going to reinforce the cognitive dissonance they might have and all will be lost. Ego aside, what's the point of a successful well founded argument if it doesn't get absorbed by the receiving party.

I'm referring to the last line.

>It's the exact same things with men. Men love big tits on a girl, because it signifies to our subconsciousness that she is fertile and ready to feed your potential children. Men also like big hips on a girl, because it signifies that she is ready to give birth.

I don't like these things on a girl.

Neither does 80% of Japan, or almost all of Ancient Rome where girls with small circular puffy tits were admired, and big tits were seen as comical signs of old age.

Personally I think Japan and Ancient Rome are the correct ones, and most guys in western society just think big tits/hips/ass are attractive because the media told them to.

No they dont, getting laid is literally just a matter of trying and talking to girls. I know 8/10 girls who are devoted to 3/10 guys, if lifting gives you confidence then that's good but as a guy it is literally all about just being confident and actually talking to the girl and expressing interest.

Not him but you sound like a genuine faggot.

Literally no-one cares

This is my gf bro, I'm gay for liking this?

(you)

post her dick

that actually makes a lot of sense but some reason it doesn't sit well with me

Just listen to this.
All you need to know, the whole manosphere distilled in one podcast,
soundcloud.com/musonius-rufus/rebel-yell-20170322-210-john-sevier-todd-lewis
You don't have shit taste sir.

Mainly because women are a meme and its such a waste of time to play the social big dick card just to get the opportunity to work hard for a girl for the rest of your life. I've had a gf for years and i literally keep friends around, go to her friends' parties, go to nightclubs etc for the sole purpose of establishing that "im confident and have a high social standing", otherwise, as smart as she is, i just know she will end up losing interest.

I just want to look after my health, work and enjoy being at home. I've never really enjoyed socializing.

There's more masculine features in "her" face, than your entire body

when I was 21. Friend called me fat and I was super self-conscious.
i thank him every time I see him

This. Im a newly graduated doctor and in shape and attractive but i always have a suspicion that that doesnt really matter to a girl, so my girlfriend will just see some sub-90 iq chad from work still clubbing every weekend in his late 20s and be enamored by how popular he is.

It sounds like you want to suck his dick

I think she's quite attractive.
On the other hand, single angle, cosplay (heavvvvy makeup, wig, etc). But the girl displayed in that picture is attractive.

The general gist I agree with, I prefer smaller breasts to big ones (better aesthetic), but almost all breast sizes are good anyway so I don't really like to argue about it.

On another note, even though it's only been posted in one or two other places (with the GF claim as well, admittedly) I highly doubt she's your girlfriend, if you're even the guy in the picture at all.
Why?
Hover-hand, unless my eyes are fucked. It's likely a dude asking to pose with a cosplayer. If it really *is* your girlfriend, congrats.

Be careful, user. I sense great cuckoldry in your future.

Its as unlikely with her as it could be with anyone, she's about as good a balance between independent, intelligent and attractive as ive ever met. I just feel that no girl is really above the flawed thinking.

Being in a relationship and having girls try everything to get with you because of it really taught me that to girls social desirability is literally everything. If a girl is into you and goes out with you, you are +10 to them - same with social standing elsewhere, yet ive really never been too bothered with it.

>Literally the other way around
We are not talking about bodybuilding.

We are talking about a man with average muscle amount in todays society, compared to a man that has a little bit more muscle than him. Not extremly ripped or a fat powerlifter, just "toned" as the girls would call it.

See the picture attatched to this post, which one is average fertile female going to be more attracted to?

It doesn't even have to be the same person, place a skinnyfat person compared besides a ottermode person, and the majority of females will prefer the ottermode male.

Exceptions apply, low social status female, lgbtq, feminists, etc... Will not prefer the ottermode, but at the same time. the average male isn't attracted to these kinds of females anyways, so the equation is balanced by nature her self.

Good point, people on Reddit and sites with a post-voting system etc shit their pants and will dissmiss the entire post because of this. Fortunately, we are on a site were these terms are common, and most people don't pay to much attention to them. Except for the boards with Reddit invaders trying to change the Veeky Forums culture, as seen in /v/, /co/ etc, where they come from specific subreddits in large amount, changing the narrative.

Indeed,when someone shows ignorance to what you are knowledgeble about, while sounding like a overweight feminist, your vocabulary can expand quickly, hehe.

>I don't like these things on a girl.
As previously mentioned, could possibly be a social outcast and feel intimitanded by high ranking females with big tits and big hips, as you feel you aren't good enough for her. Or autizm, lgbtq/ dog dicks etc...

Cont....

Neither because he's not white

> getting fake abs surgery

She sees you as a provider. That's my main concern. The relationship might grow stale and you'll find your self at a "sex-counselor" trying to "spice things up". Either way, I wish you all the luck.

Nah, she's been working for years ahead of me due to degree lengths and in a great job, she earns more than ill earn for several years - although ill eventually overtake her.

I have no problem being the provider though, if i had my way once we start having kids she'd stop working and just look after them.

>Neither does 80% of Japan.
Japanese people on average, compared to us in the west, have smaller bodies, thus smaller muscles, tits and hips. Thus, they feel attracted to what is average in their soceity, smaller muscles/tits/hips than us in the west. Their population is isolated from the outside world to a large extent, and they also have ethnic homogeneity, which causes them to be attracted to what they are surrounded by.

> Ancient Rome are the correct ones
The majority of people living in ancient rome were not homosexual, because they did not stop having children. The culture of the higher upperclass and some parts of the peasants were homosexual though.

>and most guys in western society just think big tits/hips/ass are attractive because the media told them to.
No, that's what soceity is pushing you to think, because certain people benefit from having a weak and sexually confused population.

Males with low testosterone levels are attracted to females with low estrogen levels, it's nature.

Similar to how certain white males with low testosterone levels seek asian females with low estrogen levels.

>inb4 cherrypicked pictures of asian females with big ass/tits
On average they don't, and that's why the average low social standing guy from the west, seeks out the asian female.

Certain black males with high testosterone levels seek white females with low estrogen levels.

Of course, these theories are all rules of thumb applied to countries with a relative homogeneous populations, they aren't as accurate in places like USA or Brazil, becuase of the ethnicity situation.

I dont think males with low testosterone are attracted to women with less oestrogen - its rather that they feel less strong attraction in general. Testosterone increases desire for secondary sexual characteristics, like breasts and big asses, and increases confidence and competitiveness. So high test men will desire and compete for the most fertile, attractive women.

Low test men dont have that competitive streak or the real desire so they opt for less challenging women to obtain, boyish women.

damn she's an 8 at least

be a good lad and post some naughty pictures of her

you realized that this didn't sounded bad right?committed relationship at young age is bullshit and stressful as fuck, i'd rather fuck as many girls as i can, making friends and partying than watching netflix movies cuddling the same girl everyday

That's not true. If your type is boying women having higher test will only make you like them even more.

That's why most fags have normal testosterone levels but they still like men.

Yeah hedonism is cool! Who cares that promiscuity is directly correlated with lack of marital success later in life, greater depression and worse health, i just want to party now!

Higher testosterone quite literally causes a greater desire for secondary sexual characteristics, which in women are breasts and hips/ass. So no.

Any evidence to back up your claims?

Seconding. It's late and I'm too tired to actually search for this. I can imagine it being true, but on the other hand I don't give much of a toss. I like shapely, I also like that pic posted earlier.

No hes 100% right, I've only been with 3 women and I'm pretty sure I'm going to Marry the girl that I'm with. I'll never cheat on her but I defiantly regret not whoring around more when I had the chance.

No I'm not insecure about the amount of people she's slept with either since the number is less than me, for sure.

dr.library.brocku.ca/handle/10464/1189
sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0018506X08002298

Come back to me when your relationship fails. Wishing you had slept with other people is the biggest red flag imaginable.

Those show a correlation between higher testosterone and desire for feminine sexual characteristics. They don't mean anything in the context I was talking about before.

I wanna see evidence where a guy's type is boyish women and then his testosterone increases and his type suddenly changes. As far as I know this isn't possible because attraction is cerebral not hormonal.

Not him but 3 previous partners is literally the point at which marriage success rates plummet and they are more likely to fail than succeed. So to say you've slept with three and still wish you had slept with more is really telling.

It showed a correlation between testosterone and larger breasts and larger hips to waist. Which is exactly what everyone has been saying.

>As far as I know this isn't possible because attraction is cerebral not hormonal.

Google the effects of birth control pills. Oh and that one drug that was taken off of the market because it had the side effect of making people gay.

*and preference for larger .....

that's bc no matter how good you look, no amount of lifting will fix the autism or that dish rag of a personality you got.

>Google the effects of birth control pills

That's women.

>Oh and that one drug that was taken off of the market because it had the side effect of making people gay

Haha what? I'd be interested to see that but I can't find anything in google.

Second is irrelevant since it's about face. Investigating first.

First is also dubious, unless the search function is broken "secondary" is only mentioned once. The context is men in *general* preferring the large breasts low hip/waist ratio. I can understand it if what you're talking about is exposure of testosterone during development, but I can't find the specific location in this study that's relevant, and the PDF pages are loading too slowly to properly search. 'Nor do I have enough time. Do you have a page reference?

It quite clearly lays out that finger lengths are associated with a preference for female body types. The differing finger lengths are the result of testosterone.

Those with finger lengths indicating a high serum testosterone are more attracted to women with larger breasts and a small waist, large hips.

And here's the fucking crux of the issue. Me and the other user thought you were talking about active testosterone levels in a fully developed male because of the way you were phrasing it, not early exposure in the womb. Yes, I can sure as hell see early hormone exposure affecting your sexual... everything. It affects your orientation, for one thing.

It's not just in the womb, it's throughout all developmental life. Finger lengths are different in children who suffer hypogonadism. Sure, blasting an adult with testosterone will probably never change his sexual preferences, seen as those are mostly established in childhood - but the point still stands that in a natural setting the effect of high testosterone is an interest in curvier women.

High *developmental* testosterone, then. (Didn't take childhood into account. On the other hand, we aren't usually talking about children when we talk about sexual preferences.) That really needs to be specified or people will think (as we did) that you mean giving an adult man a shot of T will suddenly make him love huge tits and asses over previously liking lithe and relatively flat.

I enjoyed this interaction

Well yes but in any natural setting a person's testosterone will be consistent with itself across a person's life. If they had high testosterone growing up that will last through adulthood. Of course it will drop off as usual, but from a higher point.

So a high testosterone person will predominantly like certain female characteristics as a result of this hormone.

There are exceptions, like those whose testosterone lowers due to illness, or those who inject exogenous testosterone. I certainly never meant that changing an established adult's hormone levels will change preference aside from dampening or intensifying their existing taste.

Never came to that realization.

Getting fitter may have never "got" me women directly, but it absolutely gave me access to higher quality ones to get. And made the sex way better after I got them, too.

Fetal testosterone that you are exposed to from your mother, is different from the testosterone you produce yourself throughout your life.

Foetuses start producing their own testosterone before they are born and as i said, finger length is the result of testosterone produced up until growing has finished.

That's all I (and the other user too, I'm fairly sure) disagreed with. Developmental period hormones will certainly affect your preferences (along with other factors, of course.)

I'm broke as shit. I live with a half asian goodess, and fuck her on cam for money. She resents dudes who throw cash at her, and sucks my dick daily. There is a girl for every guy.

> goddess
> has sex on cam for thousands of strangers
right ok

I must have a very strange life or live in a strange place

>Going to uni, getting laid is quite impossible and it was much easier before. Actaully got approached back before
>Been lifting for some time, got more action when i was a hungry skelly

I mean i dont know wtf is up but it seems selfimprovement is causing all my issues, it wasnt good exactly before and i could get laid anytime i wanted (except when i had a gf) but it was alot better
Now in uni and being fit made me a fucking incel and life just isnt about to turn around anytime soon

Why cant it just be as simple as i want it to be, bros?

that's just weird

maybe you got uglier as you got older or your body is not aesthetic? or maybe it's all in your head?

I didnt get uglier, quite the opposite
I had problems with zits when i was younger and i used to have a shaved head all the time but now im clear of zits and i got nice hair
My bod...well im on Veeky Forums so im not happy with it whatsoever but ive only heard good things

maybe the bald look suited you better

So, will the girls choose the built high standing guy or the scrawny one?
Your point is dismissed.

They also valuede tiny 2 inch cocks. Just look at their statues. I'm thinking you are trying to convince yourself :DDDDDDDDDDDDD

This is kinda true. I say kinda. Having broad shoulders and a small waist, a six pack, or a strong butt is aesthetic to women, they just don't notice the details such as your triceps or your chest definition as much as men do.

This

I've realized that I have a resting bitch face.
My brow becomes furrowed and I frown more when I get lost in thought so I look angry.

Smile more. Chad smiles because his life is good so if you smile it'll look like you're life is good.

Happy>Face>Height>Frame

your standards are low user.

How does it feel knowing that your gf has a strong jawline than you do?

yeah dude that's totally your gf that you're hover-handing in that picture

No. What matters is the amount of POWER you have. Of course someone who's rich naturally has a lot of power over people. However if your social skills are very good and you know a lot of people and have many friends, there's no way women won't want you. The benefit of lifting and looking ripped is of course being able to socialize better thay way as a result of being more confident and looking better, thus gaining you some power over people. OFC the women you get with financial power are gold diggers compared to the ones you get with social power obtained trough hard work, glory and honor. Tbh I'm a virgin and should know nothing about this stuff but this is how it has to be