War of the Roses General

ITT a general discussion of the war. Three questions to get it started :
Who do you think was the best commander of england at the time?
Who was the best ruler for england?
What was the most important battle of the war?

>"Hey fellow Englanders, let's fight to decide which branch of this same French family should rule us!"

If the Plantagenets were French by 1455 we may as well boil this arhukentvdown to it's most ridiculous conclusion and call them all Georgian.

>best commander :
Edward IV, he won each battle he fought, against some pretty crazy odds too
>best ruler :
compared to her useless husband and both york brothers, Margaret of Anjou was the smartest and best served ruler of the period
>most important battle :
Wakefield 1460, where both Richard of York and his son Edmond Rutland died, giving the york faction to his other sons Edward and Richard

My hearth

about him, what would it have changed if he had died, let's say, ten years later? His son was still a total idiot. I think he would have had a bigger impact on the Hundred Years War but eventually the succession of Edward III would still have gone to shit

The war was lost while he still lived.
One of the reasons for that was his own political mistakes and his disastrous involvement in Spain, so that did spell trouble if he had become king

Don't listen to Tudor propaganda
This guy was a good king

bump

Lancastrians were usurpers.

And so were the Yorks and all the other Plantagenet kings
Godwinson was the last true king

>Normans
>being a thing by the time of Richard III

>implying
Everyone after him and his son is a usurper

>he thinks the Plantagenets were Normans

They were Angevins (from Anjou)
And yes, they were "a thing" until the Tudors took over

then who was the best usurper of them all?

The one that made them believe they wanted him to usurp the king and the English refuse to recognize him as a conqueror

What does that have to do with the fact that Normans weren't a thing by Richard III's time?

Empress Matilda, mother of the Plantagenet Henry II, was the daughter of Henry I, who was absolutely Norman.

>Angevins are French
>Tudors are Welsh

But Henry Tudor was at least 1/4 French and Mary was 1/2 Spanish.

>Richard was a good king
Let's see what he did : fought off a rebellion that collapsed on itself due to a bit of rain, then lot crushed by the next rebellion
Where did it go well? I know Shakespeare was Tudor propaganda but shit, he doesn't have a good case

>tfw they even had for some time a glorious habsburg king

Explain.
Because they were Caucasians or is there an actual Georgian link to Anjou?

He was a just lawmaker who stood for the common people. Many of his reforms and actions continued for many years (he did stuff like protect people from fraud with new laws, translate to English books of law, he further centralized governance). Northern England loved him, when he died in battle the city of York officialy deplored his death.

Pretty much most negative things said about him were Tudor propaganda and later sources derived from propaganda.

picture a timeline where he impregnated Mary and England became another Habsburg domain

>Dutch Revolt decisively crushed
>all the free money now used for improving the spanish homeland
>victory of the Catholic League in France, and might fall under spanish influence
>Spain, Portugal, Italy, the Benelux region, England and Germany ruled by the same dynasty and France neutered
>ending the protestant and calvinist heresies
>maybe rolling back the turkish gainz now with all of western europe unified

t-t-that really sounds a-aweful

He was a good admnistrator, but compared to Tudor he was much less effective at holding the country. Hell, Tudor himself had to face a bnch of pretenders but he kept them at bay. Even propaganda-wise, he could have demonised the Lancasters or Richmond. And for a tried and tested battle commander, Bosworth was just a mess. He was the worst of the York brothers, just the last one to survive to get the throne.

Because they're Caucasian. If they're French hundreds of years later because that's where their ancestors came from, you might as well follow those ancestors all the way back.

And a few months later York threw open their gates and threw a massive party for Henry and gave him lavish gifts.

What would you do if you were York?

Not try to spin it so that they eternally loved Richard and always stuck by him? The level of bullshit they came out with to try and secure the lucrative tourist cash (oh and his corpse too) following the discovery was fucking sickening.