So was Atlantis just the lost civilization of the Minoans? Destroyed by a volcano...

>Take your pseudohistory elsewhere you fucking pleb.
That's history as passed to Plato.
*chuckles smugly at you for not knowing this
*gazes in wonder at your compulsion you have to speak about things you don't even know the backstory of

youtube.com/watch?v=dQ8_qHZRu6o&list=WL&index=33&t=0s

Relevant, I promise.

And I suppose Ancient Athens was real, 10,000 years ago right?

Taking Plato literally is absolutely retarded.

>open video
>it's probably some ancient-aliens bullshit
>Aboriginal Australians and Gobekli Tepe
>close video

> Relevant, I promise.
> Gobekli Tepe
> built by abos

Fuck off, m8.

Unlikely. Several Greek historians and antiquarians knew of the Minoan civilizations; Herodotus even more or less accurately mythologizes their settlement of Sicily and Southern Magna Graecia.

Mycenaeans were. Minoans were different people.

>That's history as passed to Plato.
No it isn't, it's a story told by a character in a fictional dialogue. Plato never presents it as a historical story, and he never describes it as a factual thing that he learned firsthand. It's literally not meant to be taken seriously, and that obvious in context, which is why no one did until after the Renaissance.

You're thinking of Mycenaeans.

>And I suppose Ancient Athens was real, 10,000 years ago right?
Read this genius:
He assumed only knew that the Egyptian priests were talking about the people of the area of Greece. He just dropped in fictional names and places to fit the backdrop because he didn't have enough information to go off of either.The 9600 BC timeline fits in with a major warming period from the Quaternary ice age, the Earth would've flooded, and the sea level would've been lower before hand. So it fits with the climate.
>admitting to wanting to be ignorant of any evidence
Good to know lmao
Abo's? They only recorded it. It's like if there were a nuclear holocaust right now, the people that would survive would certainly be the backwards savages in lands not even developed enough to target. They'd go on painting pictures of flying birds and giant metal fish carrying people on their backs, leftovers long after those planes and ships have rusted and gone.
>and he never describes it as a factual thing that he learned firsthand
Again, it was passed to him thirdhand from the Egyptian priests who claimed it. Enough that edgy contrarian autists on Veeky Forums can assume it doesn't exist like filthy normies while ignoring any rationalization of it's existence. Just curious how many of you are atheists? The empiricism vs rationalism debate runs deep you know.

hehe

No I'm not, Herodotus recounts the journey of Knossos of Crete to Sicily to 'find Deucalion', his death, and the eventual waves of following Knossos settlers that colonized Sicily and lower Magna Graecia.

Francis Bacon.

I fucking knew it.

You do know that Greek sources were consistent about making shit up and attributing it to Egypt, right? Enough so that even the best surviving Greek sources on Late Period Egypt, such as Herodotus, are now known to have likely never gone to the country.

When Plato recounts information from Solon, several degrees removed from Egypt, he's making it clear to his audience that this is a fairy-tale of the type that antiquarians would claim.

this channel is fucking gold
youtube.com/watch?v=7H2-BawRLGwhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehbBl1xdpjY

Unironically the Egyptians passed the story that the Atlantians had a base in the Crimean sea. Notice the 30% R1B jump in the region surrounded by 0-15%.

>The 9600 BC timeline fits in with a major warming period from the Quaternary ice age
Ah yes, and I'm sure Egyptian priests knew what happened 9000 years before them, lol.

>admitting to wanting to be ignorant of any evidence
It's garbage. He completely ignores all chronology or archeology. Most of those symbols are barely similar.
>They only recorded it.
How if by then they were living Australia for 50.000 years without any contacts with the outside world?

Except the MidAtlantic Ridge was never above sea level and even if it had been, it would have been a barren frozen wasteland.

Minoans never colonized Sicily or Magna Graecia. How do you know he wasn't talking about Mycenaeans from Crete?

Good share, I've heard about this. I think that's where the boys who made Elder Scrolls came up with the idea for "tonal architects".
>Except the MidAtlantic Ridge was never above sea level and even if it had been, it would have been a barren frozen wasteland.
How do you know it was never above sea level? And yes, if Plato's account was right we were in the Quaternary ice age in full still, so that describes most of world actually.

Is this fucking thread real? Do we really have so many /x/-tier retards here?

>the MidAtlantic Ridge was never above sea level
it easily could have been if you want to invoke the potentially catastrophic effects of glacial isostasy. The Earth is not a rigid body and it will deform when subjected to forces or to changes in surface loads, including ice sheets several miles thick.

besides that's not the point, look at the east coast of what is now the USA and the Caribbean and then consider the possibility of more islands in the Atlantic being exposed.

pic semi-related

sad

Yes.

>samefagging after getting btfo by everyone else in thread
EMBARRASSING!

I just wanted an actual talk about the Atlantis myth, and its historical basis, if any. What the hell is happening?

People can't stand it when other people have shitloads of geographic and cultural information to share and all they can do is sit there with there thumbs up their asses and tarnish a good thread, the only one productive in over.... Well in ever.

in case you haven't noticed, the quality of threads changes drastically on the weekend. don't forget to wear protection (i.e. sage)

> How do you know it was never above sea level?

Science.

> look at the east coast of what is now the USA and the Caribbean

Civilizations don’t start on islands, they start along river drainage basins.

>there
>inb5 their*
Bottomline is every day I'm more sold on the idea that R1b antlantoids ruled the Atlantic thousands of years ago. We wouldn't have empirical proof because very little would survive from a period of a single reigning empire.

...
Alright, did you know those also existed in America and the Sunda shelf?

The Hudson is a good example.

>Science.
bahaha you can't even say what kind or how, why even bother humiliating yourself??
>Civilizations don’t start on islands, they start along river drainage basins.
First off, that's a select sample size. Second off, you don't know if Atlantis was a drainage basin itself. The Egyptian legend says the seas were navigable, so it stands to reason islanders would've had more potency in world affaris if that cultural clue is true anyways.

It was the Mycenae Empire, and they're coming back baby

>Mycenaean shill
Why though?

pic related may be illustrative of the isostatic effect of ice sheets mentioned
here

Because you're a fucking moron. The oldest R1b came from Europe and he was a pure WHG living some 14.000 years BP in North Italy. No, he wasn't super advanced.

Because it's only a matter of time until Dr. Hell finds the army of Mechanical Beasts hidden beneath the isle of Bardos.

...

whoa good share
Huge disparity of content posted by you and the guy above you. Unfuck yourself.
Afraid I don't get that reference

Jesus, you again? You keep trying to shill the same shit in the threads, and you keep getting BTFOd. Why can't you just admit that you're wrong? Plato made it up.

You don't post any content. There is literally ZERO evidence that an advanced civilization existed 10.000 BC.
And of course you can't explain why R1b appears in Western Europe only after Yamna migration and the subsequent Bell Beaker migration.

>Plato made it up.
Do you not even read the threads?
It's recorded by Plato, but it doesn't originate with him. You don't even know the first thing about the subject yet you want to talk about it.
>There is literally ZERO evidence that an advanced civilization existed 10.000 BC.
Yes, and here's why: The last structure that would survive today is the Hoover Dam. It'll last about 10k years at best. Cars will rust away in a few centuries, they'll have decomposed. Same for almost all structures. The Hoover Dam was actually built to last 10k years, there is important art and astrological signs put into it so future civs can see it. There would be little to nothing in the way of material proof anyways.
>Yamna migration and the subsequent Bell Beaker migration
Which direction did they migrate? East to west. Where is R1b strongest? West to east. Whoa, that was hard.

>keep getting BTFOd
believe me I would know if that were true

>R1b appears in Western Europe only after Yamna migration

"a male known as Villabruna 1 (or 1,215,433), within an Epigravettian culture in the Cismon valley (modern Veneto, Italy), who lived circa 14,000 years BP and reportedly belonged to R1b1a (R-L754),[3]"

>believe me I would know if that were true
Yeah you're not. He doesn't have any idea where the story even came from, he just thought it was cool for a story and that was it.
>"a male known as Villabruna 1 (or 1,215,433), within an Epigravettian culture in the Cismon valley (modern Veneto, Italy), who lived circa 14,000 years BP and reportedly belonged to R1b1a (R-L754),[3]"
heh, blowing them the fuck out

> Alright, did you know those also existed in America and the Sunda shelf?

Sure, in the South China Sea, as I posted here (there’s a much better map showing speculated river systems and possible locations for ancient civilizations but my hard drive recently took a shit and I lost everything and now can’t find the map again. Heres a link to a gif life that’s too big to post:
atlantisjavasea.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/sundaland-in-the-last-glacial-period.gif)

And no doubt there are all kinda archeological remains along the submerged N.American coast (see: Solutreans) but there’s no evidence at all for any kinda ancient civilization in either North or South America nor the Caribbean islands.

> Second off, you don't know if Atlantis was a drainage basin itself.

Again, even if there were (small) islands above sea leave along the MidAtlantic ridge, they would have been frozen Arctic wastelands incapable of supporting anything more than a handful of Eskimos

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1f_9s-3Xd-AfRasuLGc_8s4IHpnLzBZwbvfxne2X09bQ/edit#gid=998207542

Now explain why there is 0 R1b Y-DNA before 2500 BC in Britain.

>Again, even if there were (small) islands above sea leave along the MidAtlantic ridge, they would have been frozen Arctic wastelands incapable of supporting anything more than a handful of Eskimos
Where are you getting the temperature ranges from? You ass? Like the R1B claim?

I just mentioned that. He had no Steppe ancestry, nor was he advanced. He was pure WHG living in Northern Italy.

>solutrean
Wrong.
The most probable explanation is the bering migration.

>see: Solutreans
Another meme.

>sample size of 171
roflmao bahah oh shit this is too much
>nor was he advanced
How is that a prerequisite?

>Afraid I don't get that reference

In the anime Mazinger Z from 1972, an evil scientist named Dr. Hell found in the mediterranean island of Bardos an army of 20 meter robots, apparently built by the Mycenean civilization who tried used them to protect themselves before the Great General of Darkness defeated them. He revives these machines to try and conquer the world, only to be stopped by Koji Kabuto piloting Mazinger Z.

t-this? Also there's all kind of talk about submerged structures in the Caribbean resembling those of the Mayans. Taking the recent lidar findings into account I would say there's probably more we don't know about, and more that we'll probably never be able to learn.

>they would have been frozen Arctic wastelands
no more so than southern Europe at the time, maybe much better if you take the changing climate zones into account.

>anime
I'm glad we can talk without being seen together.

So your have no proof of such a civilization existing.
>The last structure that would survive today is the Hoover Dam
Sounds like pure bullshit.

>roflmao bahah oh shit this is too much
Retard.
Anime is less embarrassing than ancient aliens Atlantis bullshit.

Actually there were several waves of migration over Berengia and along the coast by boat. The Americas were inhabited for thousands of years before Clovis, and potentially longer than that.

>Sounds like pure bullshit.
google.com/search?ei=SBiJWrCCIY_7zgKYtpb4Bg&q=how long is the hoover dam supposed to last&oq=how long is the hoover dam supposed to last&gs_l=psy-ab.3..33i22i29i30k1l4.5332.11345.0.11419.43.41.0.0.0.0.272.4908.15j24j1.40.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..3.40.4859...0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i20i264k1j0i20i263i264k1j0i22i30k1j0i22i10i30k1j0i13i30k1j33i21k1j33i160k1.0.OxESS-54zSA
>So your have no proof of such a civilization existing.
I don't have an one of their ornaments or a tablet if that's what you're saying. Which it is. Because you're a brainlet empiricist.

>quora
>reddit
Great source. We have stone tools from 3.3 million years ago but literally every single remnant of our civilization disappears in 10.000 years.

>Anime is less embarrassing than ancient aliens Atlantis bullshit.
It really isn't user.
>makes up bullshit about R1b
>he thinks it young
>he thinks it spread east to west instead of looking at the information spoonfed to him
>clearly making up shit the whole way through
>thinks a sample size of 171 is extensive enough to post as evidence
>didn't know where Plato even got the story from, he just thought he'd repost pasta he saw on another Atlantis thread
>can't even google the Hoover Dam
>is an empiricist incapable of any thought higher than animalistic sensory imputs

> Where are you getting the temperature ranges from?

For there to even be a chance of (small) islands to be above sea level along the MidAtlantic Ridge, sea leaves would have to be at their absolute lowest that means during the worst of the ice age, which means those islands (that were never above sea level anyways) would have been frozen solid and incapable of supporting even assbackward Eskimos, let alone an advanced civilization they way Atlantis was described.

> Like the R1B claim?

I’m not the one making those claims. Try to keep up.

> The most probable explanation is the bering migration.

The now accepted theory of human migration from Asia is that it was a maritime migration, in small boats hopping along the ice pack and coastline, which makes far more sense then slogging on foot across the frozen tundra.

And this theory works even better for a Solutrean migration from Europe to the Americas, as there is archeological evidence that they used boats.

> t-this?

Yes, thanks for finding it.

> Also there's all kind of talk about submerged structures in the Caribbean resembling those of the Mayans.

Yes, the “Bimini Road” but if that’s man made, it would have been created much later.

> t-this?

Yes, thanks for finding it.

> Also there's all kind of talk about submerged structures in the Caribbean resembling those of the Mayans.

Yes, the “Bimini Road” but if that’s man made, it would have been created much later.

>Because you're a brainlet empiricist.
So how do you think your claims should be supported? Your feelings? And you're seriously going to act like people are unintelligent for not taking you seriously?

>give him a link to google
>he immediately looks up reddit and quora
>then he blames someone else for his poor choices
Self incrimination you actual retard

atlantis was probably a lost colonial city state like taranto/carthage/syracuse which turned into a mythical civilization through oral/written tradition over time.

>he thinks anything other than his eyeballs has to be feelings
>literally incapable of conceiving of any evidence that isn't related to his immediate environment

there are other candidates

>>they would have been frozen Arctic wastelands
>no more so than southern Europe at the time, maybe much better if you take the changing climate zones into account.

It would have been north of the UK, which was a frozen wasteland at the time.

>And this theory works even better for a Solutrean migration from Europe to the Americas
Except there's absolutely no evidence it happened, and the presence of pre-Clovis cultures in the Americas negates a huge chunk of what made people think of the Solutrean hypothesis in the first place. Really, all you have to go on if you want to take the Solutrean hypothesis serious are very superficial similarities in tool types that were used tens of thousands of years apart, and that's super flimsy. There's a reason archaeologists don't take it seriously.

>Bimini Road” but if that’s man made
It isn't.

>For there to even be a chance of (small) islands to be above sea level along the MidAtlantic Ridge, sea leaves would have to be at their absolute lowest that means during the worst of the ice age, which means those islands (that were never above sea level anyways) would have been frozen solid and incapable of supporting even assbackward Eskimos, let alone an advanced civilization they way Atlantis was described.
Look up the longitudinal lines. Seriously. It sounds like you're arguing against Thule instead of Atlantis.
>I’m not the one making those claims. Try to keep up.
It was a calculated risk since there was no way of knowing.

Yes. Solutrean hypothesis has no basis.
>"Other authorities point to the greater similarity between haplogroup R1 subclades found in North America and those found in Siberia (e.g. Lell [11] and Raghavan [12]), suggesting prehistoric immigration from Asia and/or Beringia, deriving from two major Siberian migrations. The first migration came from middle Siberia with the founding haplotype P-M45(x Q-M3). A second migration came from southeastern Siberia (Lower Amur/Sea of Okhkotsk/Kamchatka region) with the founding haplotype P-M45(x R1-M173), delineated by the RPS4Y-T marker, and took place at 7,000–9,500 years before present. Significant frequencies of RPS4Y-T are found in several northern Amerindian and Na-Dene populations (Bergen et al. 1999; Karafet et al. 1999), and in Lake Baikal region and Mongolia (Karafet et al. 1999), but is absent in Europeans (Bergen et al. 1999), reaching its highest frequencies in the populations of eastern Siberia. The P-M45(x R1-M173) subhaplogroup essentially seems to connect the population of eastern Siberians with the North- and Central-American Na-Dene and the surrounding Amerindian speakers. The RPS4Y-T diversification lends toward east Asia. The data correlates well with previous conclusions about the maternal migrations into Americas.[13]"

>"R1-positive P-M45 tested populations: Udegeys, Koryaks, North- and Central-American natives.[13]"

The first one seems to have happened in 26000BC by P individuals who stayed in Alaska due to the LGM.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluefish_Caves

These people then migrated south after the deglaciation process let them reach the rest of North America and finally the other subcontinent c. 17000BC.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Verde

Then the second migration seems to have happened in 7000BC. It seems that horses went extinct near that era too.

Then the last migration wave of Inuits happened since 1000AD

the mid-Atlantic ridge is west of Spain, not north of the UK.

lmao right?? Also checked m8

Dude, you're the one rejecting established science and scholarship in favor of apparently deliberate misreadings of ancient texts and pseudohistory.

>And this theory works even better for a Solutrean migration from Europe to the Americas, as there is archeological evidence that they used boats.
It really doesn't. There is 5000-6000 hiatus between Solutreans and the Clovis culture. All genetic evidence also points out to Siberia.

>thinks a sample size of 171 is extensive enough to post as evidence
For archeology is a very big sample. CHG is 2 samples, ANE is 1 sample, EHG is 3 samples.

It also shows perfectly that R1b is an invasive haplogroup that arrived only some 2500 BC and by 1700 virtually replaced all local Y-DNA haplogroups.

>second migration came from southeastern Siberia (Lower Amur/Sea of Okhkotsk/Kamchatka region) with the founding haplotype P-M45(x R1-M173), delineated by the RPS4Y-T marker, and took place at 7,000–9,500 years before present.

interesting, this is correlates with the Maritime Archaic almost perfectly

>let alone an advanced civilization they way Atlantis
This is important, because the people arguing against Atlantis itt are really arguing against a bunch of stereotypes it seems. The most advanced feature Plato assigned to Atlantis in his own writings which were inspired by the Egyptians was that they had stainless metals. That's it. It makes sense too, the year is 9600BC and everyone is in the stone age still. That means Atlantis is advanced because it's in a bronze age with stainless materials("Orichalc"). So no flying fish statues, but relatively far ahead.
>For archeology
Pathetic.

meant for

>2500 BC
This part got btfo way up in the thread m8.Squandered trips, disgraceful.

>they probably didn't even know that the Minoans existed
You can't be serious. The entire labyrinth myth takes place in Crete and the very word "Minoans" is based on a famous Cretan king in Greek mythology.

Disagreeing with a theory isn’t disproving a theory.

And that’s not even factoring in the overwhelming politically correct pressure on academia to insist that human migration to the Americas _only_ came from Asia (despite evidence suggesting otherwise).

I'm basing it on the location of Iceland and the speculation that the islands would have been around there but it's irrelevant anyways, as there NEVER WERE any MidAtlantic islands.

1. Cromagnon were I2 haplogroup individuals, no genetic evidence of such beings in Americas.
2. Solutrean lived in 20000BC. The earliest clovis evidence is from 11000BC.
3. The fact that there were humans in Alaska in 26000BC demonstrate that paleo-siberians had also boats.

The bering migration is the most probable explanation, boy.
>"Archaeogenetic research in 2017 established, however, that the Maritime Archaic people had nothing in common with the Inuit, nor with Beothuk Indians, who later inhabited the same area after the climatic conditions changed[1]. A study published in Current Biology compared the mitochondrial DNA of 74 individuals, 19 Beothuk, 53 Maritime Archaic, and two Paleo-Eskimo, and found that these populations were not at all related."
Are you people schizo or smth?

>I'm basing it on the location of Iceland and the speculation that the islands would have been around there but it's irrelevant anyways, as there NEVER WERE any MidAtlantic islands.
Did you just ignore half the thread?lmfao you really were arguing against Thule

>and found that these populations were not at all related
We're all Africans user.

A single R1b living in Northern Italy 14.000 years ago has nothing to do with Bell Beakers invading Britain 2500 years ago.
Oh, and apparently one sample is good enough, but 171 samples proving something else is not extensive enough.

If you are going to use racial classifications you better go back to your shithole, boy.

>despite evidence suggesting otherwise
What evidence? There is no evidence.

>better go back to your shithole, boy.
Wherever you are is my shithole.

There never were any MidAtlantic Ridge islands, this is Ed “man as old as coal” Conrad tier stupidity.