What do you honestly think of /fraud/ers

Do you guys look down on recreational steroid use? Is it generally frowned upon?

Other urls found in this thread:

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1768197/
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1768225/
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10332567
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7728810
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1917226
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10834358
youtube.com/watch?v=XhHwAW-yDnY
twitter.com/NSFWRedditGif

I don't really care. But yes of course roiding is frowned upon by most people.

I definitely do.

I understand if you're like a pro athlete and need to remain competitive, but guys just doing it because they wanna be alpha male chad or whatever are kind of pathetic.

There was one guy in here last year around this time who was bemoaning how he just kept losing gains no matter how hard he worked out after he quit using gear - only to find the reason he quit was because his dick basically stopped working. Yet here he was, crying on a japanese knitting board or whatever because muh gainz tho.

It's your body and do what you wanna do, but it's still kind of retarded.

It's frowned upon by brainwashed Americans largely due to the way they're brought up.

The whole "pledging allegiance" every morning and being told you can be anything you want to be provided you stay true to yourself and don't cheat is the reason.

Obviously in reality most of life is pure blind luck, but the remainder is massively helped along if you lie, cheat, and bullshit your way up in life. Just look at your president, and for the record, I have no issue with Trump.

Then because so many places, like here in the UK, import so much of American culture, that attitude spreads over here too. Again, I have no issue with us importing American culture. It works great. Take music for example - the US invents a genre, the UK makes it good, the US takes it back and makes it a bit better, both sides merge, everyone is happy.

But the downside is people look down on the likes of steroid use.

Why?

I can't be bothered going over the same old arguments, but the obvious one is "cheating".

Cheating who?

If someone said to you "I'm flying from New York to London" would you accuse them of "cheating" because they didn't decide to swim?

Unless you literally are cheating by doing it as a professional sportsperson (though it's rampant even there) there is no valid moral reason why steroids are "bad".

Again, I also think it's jealousy. Which is madness when you realise anyone can achieve a body like Zyzz with some time, effort, knowledge, and gear.

I want people to take as much steroids as possible. They will serve as lab rats so we can improve on them and make them safe for everyone.

>but guys just doing it because they wanna be alpha male chad or whatever are kind of pathetic.

but what if you've been lifting for a long time and want to take your body to that next level? Not out of vanity or "to look like chad" but because you really want to make mad strength gains and improve your overall look? I just dont get why people talk so much shit about roiders yet the only people that the masses admire are people on gear. Seriously, who is natural and is widely popular in the fitness community solely based on their appearance?

Its just like women, women will tell you they dont want a guy on steroids or a guy thats "too big" yet once they see them in person its niagara falls

As per my post above, this is not a valid argument.

Firstly, his "dick stopped working" due to his own stupidity. Anyone with half a brain cell can prevent this and even then it's so rare I assume your story is a lie.

The main argument is why do you care? It's none of your fucking business. Again, why not take a shortcut? You do it all the time.

Lol, babo is like 4'9

ITT dyels who think they have the right to tell others what they put in their bodies using their own money

Agreed.

The misinformation out there is insane. To the point that the only reason kids DO fuck themselves up using gear is due to this misinformation.

And I'm not just talking about shitty internet forums, the official UK government "drug advice" website is bordering on the dangerous with their advice on steroid use. We're fucking paying for that.

The issue isn't that they are cheating. It is that they lie about it.

When you fly from New York to London, you dont go around saying that you swam from New York to London.

Additionally, steroids being illegal doesn't really help its cause.

>but the remainder is massively helped along if you lie, cheat, and bullshit your way up in life.

probably the biggest redpill statement honestly. And that becomes very true the older you get. I mean seriously, the ONLY kids in my football conference in highschool that went on to play D1 football were confirmed gear users.

also

>Just look at your president
dont let the UK's liberal media brainwash you... trump is the truth

Well obviously who wants to openly disclose that they are on steroids? Its precisely the reason why people lie about use because normies think "oh my god what a loser cheater!"

My biggest problem isn't the bodybuilders who use it to get huge and compete, its the dumbass college kids who think they need to take it instead of training hard enough. That being said as a dumb college kid, it still seems appealing to be able to reach those goals much quicker by using gear. I feel like most people look down upon it because they're jealous they're not getting the same results and wish they could take it

Well I'm relatively open about it.

I mean, I wouldn't use it as an opener in a conversation, but if someone asks I'll tell them.

Agreed though, people lying is annoying. But that's having a problem with liars, not steroid users.

Like you say, the legal thing doesn't help, nor does people's backward attitude towards them, so you can hardly blame people for keeping quiet.

Worth pointing out too that in developed nations steroids are actually legal.

>It is that they lie about it.

I tell anyone who asks that I'm on gear. I tell a lot of people who don't ask.

This is part of the problem. When I was 14 and first started lifting I thought I could look how I wanted natty if I just "worked hard enough", dudes at the gym all lied to me.

Now I tell people, even teens if they ask, yes I take steroids and so do their heroes.

In regards to the Trump thing, you didn't read the bit after that.

I said I don't have an issue with him. But you can't deny he got to where he is (in business nevermind becoming president) by doing a bit of shady dealing. We all do it, every one of us. Some just do it better than others.

You've made A LOT of assumptions about argument and basically attacked a strawman. I'm getting the impression you've encounter a lot of ill-informed people who criticize steroids use for poor reasons, but not all of us are that ill informed.

My argument has nothing to due with culture or "cheating" and more to due with the fact that in the process of achieving a better "body" you wind up fucking yourself up. Steroid use is not healthy, and there is literally encyclopedias of empirical evidence showing just that. Even when doctors prescribe people steroids for medical reasons or to repair injury, it's done with the understanding that there will almost always be negative side-effects.

But you aren't "taking your body to the next level", you're increasing your gains at the cost of almost every other dimension of your health (including your life expectancy).

Yes, it is actually. The argument is that steroid use is not healthy, and your conjecture that it's "so rare" that people who take large amounts of testosterone externally that their glands will stop producing it stands against the sum of almost all medical evidence on the topic.

The issue with that is that steroid use isn't some exclusive club only a select few are members of.

If you "wish you could take" steroids just do some reading and fucking take them. A child could do it.

> steroid use is not healthy
yeah we know how unhealthy olympic athletes are.

retard. do you have a single fact to back that up? you don't. you're just gonna mention some faggot who used diuretics for a contest and died.

Most people think they destroy your health and life so they wont and they just stay jealous.

Also I doubt every average guy at the gym could find a gear plug if he wanted to start a cycle. Then again I've never tried looking into it so maybe its easier than I think.

I don't care what you do with your body.
In fact I'm just wainting until I'm financially stable/independent and old enough to do them.
I'm not telling anyone irl thought

As a steroid user, and the guy who posted the first and third comments you replied to there, it's important you provide me with some evidence for your claims.

I accept I can NEVER read enough about this, and am a total hypochondriac who is fastidious about doing this as safely as possible.

Of course, I expect the old "convenient silence" here, because I've come across a lot of people who say exactly what you're saying, but fail to provide any evidence.

Bear in mind, my own doctor (and I'm in the UK so don't pay my doctor thousands to lie for me) has said its fine and they work.

It seems you have a very poor understanding of the way our endocrine system works, however, if you can provide irrefutable evidence that it is as harmful as you say, I will destroy all my gear right here and now, and post video evidence of me doing so. You have my word.

I don't know how to tell you this, but a large part of the misinformation you're spreading about steroids comes from the fact that your attitude about life is pretty shitty in general.

In respect to cheating - no, we don't all do it. I'm not even talking about body-building because (although you seem to want to put the words in my mouth), I don't consider gear as "cheating." I just think it's unhealthy. In general, however, there are plenty of us who have gone from rags to riches just working harder and being one step ahead of the other guy. I went to one of the poorest schools in the US and now I make near twice the average income in my country at age 27. I was given virtually no advantages, so I'm tired of meeting people who want to try and chalk up my success to "luck" and think that excuses them playing underhanded.

As for Trump's case, you clearly don't know much about him. I don't defend Trump, but most of his wealth was not gotten from "shady dealings" but was rather inherited. There's nothing "shady" about that. I'm not excusing things he did with that money later on, but his success has very little to due with him being a crooked businessman.

i think you are blowing the negative effects of steroid use way out of proportion. Surely someone that takes a small to medium dose of testosterone responsibly and does proper PCT with be fine. Obviously if you leave humanity behind and start taking weird substances like tren im sure those are another story, but testosterone and maybe small amount of certain substances cant be all that bad for your health and longevity

Better dead than natty

>so maybe its easier than I think.

You can literally google it and buy them with Western Union, Moneygram, or Bitcoin in 30 minutes.

You're gonna get ripped off as far as price goes but you don't get to the dank sources until years later.

One of the main ways kids fuck themselves up taking gear is by buying dodgy shit from some guy down the gym.

Anyone with a brain and access to Google can find safe reliable sources within 10 minutes. You can also easily find reviews and even lab results for most reputable labs, and even bloodwork results from guys taking certain "brands" of gear.

AYE SON CHECK MY DIGITS DAWG

Steroid use is permissible only for those who love the sport. Who do it to "leave humanity behind." Even people like AlphaDestiny who train at this point because they love the iron and they want to create the ultimate male specimen, the peak of the male. This includes powerlifters and strongmen. It's only for people who have gone so far that their own bodies cannot keep up with their aspirations. Even people like Zyzz did it to achieve what they believed was the perfect male body and was one of the first ones in the modern era to return to the whole focus on aesthetics and symmetry.

It's different from roiding because you're a lazy degenerate who has been lifting for 2 months. It's about respect for the sport. If you're lifting for girls or health, there's no reason to roid. Roids are detrimental to health and girls don't give a shit about anything. Literally just NOT being fat at this point is permissible as athletic in this era.

Checked

Pärssinen, M., & Seppälä, T. (2002). Steroid use and long-term health risks in former athletes. Sports Medicine, 32(2), 83-94.

Pope, H. G., & Katz, D. L. (1994). Psychiatric and medical effects of anabolic-androgenic steroid use: a controlled study of 160 athletes. Archives of general psychiatry, 51(5), 375-382.

Maravelias, C., Dona, A., Stefanidou, M., & Spiliopoulou, C. (2005). Adverse effects of anabolic steroids in athletes: a constant threat. Toxicology letters, 158(3), 167-175.

Bahrke, M. S., Yesalis, C. E., Kopstein, A. N., & Stephens, J. A. (2000). Risk factors associated with anabolic-androgenic steroid use among adolescents. Sports Medicine, 29(6), 397-405.

Friedl, K. E. (2000). Effects of anabolic steroids on physical health. Anabolic steroids in sport and exercise, 2, 175-224.

Again, I can seriously do this all day. It's as easy as accessing an academic database and looking this up before you talk about it. I have one as part of my job, but free ones exist out there.

And yes, you clearly don't know what you're talking about regarding pro-athletes because studies actually show the longest lifespans belong to vegans and vegetarians.

I'm not a vegan or vegetarian, either. Read a fucking book man.

zyzz didnt have a big chest
that chest doesnt look big

you on the right

...

Well I stand by the "luck" argument - 90% of everything in life is luck in my view.

I don't mean "being born into a rich family, getting sent to private school and getting a £10 million "loan" from your father to start a business"

Just the fact you were born in the US in the late 20th century already put you ahead of most of the planet. I also assume you're white, again, luck that helps a lot.

You're also clearly intelligent and driven - again, luck.

Right down to little things - there will be jobs and opportunities you got in life simply because you were in the right place at the right time.

I'm not saying it's ALL luck - that 10% hard work makes ALL the difference. Plenty of guys have all the luck but are lazy and unmotivated and fuck their lives up. It needs that last 10%.

That brings it back to steroids - they aren't magic beans. You still need to work hard, train hard, eat right, be intelligent and driven about doing it properly. Simply sourcing some shit and injecting it will get you no-where.

As for Trump - I didn't mean the retarded "huurr durr, he rigged the election with the Russians!" shit. I simply mean the guy is clever and "immoral" enough to say stuff like "hey, if we do this real estate deal under a different company name, we can avoid this tax and circumvent this planning law, etc". I don't know enough about his business to give a less vague example, but we ALL do it.

Another example is tax avoidance - you can claim to be as "moral" as you want when it comes to paying tax, but if you get a buy-one-get-one-free offer or use a coupon, you're technically avoiding tax.

Here's some to start.

Again, to my knowledge, there are no peer-reviewed academic / scientific studies showing me that steroids are anything but harmful.

Moreover, I'm assuming you aren't walking to a pharmacy to get this stuff. There's no guarantee that what you're putting into your body is safe because you most likely have no idea what it is.

Correct me if I'm wrong (and I may be), but there's no regulatory agency checking that stuff.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1768197/
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1768225/
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10332567 (this is mostly safe and reversible, but just an interesting side effect to note)
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7728810

Karch SB. Karch's Pathology of Drug Abuse. 3rd Ed. Boca Raton: CRC Press; 2002. (you'll have to find a copy of this for the section on steroids, but it discusses steroid use-linked acute cardiac arrest)

it goes on and on

>Just the fact you were born in the US in the late 20th century already put you ahead of most of the planet. I also assume you're white, again, luck that helps a lot.

Agreed.


>You're also clearly intelligent and driven - again, luck.

Disagree. You of all people should know that drive and intellect are a result of hard work.

>That brings it back to steroids - they aren't magic beans. You still need to work hard, train hard, eat right, be intelligent and driven about doing it properly. Simply sourcing some shit and injecting it will get you no-where.

This I understand and also agree but, again, my argument was never that it was magic. My argument is that there is overwhelming evidence (much of which I've posted) that shows it's not good for you. Even if you or your friends don't feel the effects now, you very likely will experience them later in life or after you quit.

It's been touched on already but no I don't look down on roiders. If anything it jealousy for what they can obtain so easily while I grind 6 days a week and autistically track my food intake

If steroids wern't illegal and there wasn't a social stigma against them, 90% of Veeky Forums would be doing them..

...

What a great argument.

kek

lol I'm part of Veeky Forums history.

Thank you, I will have a read.

I note however that you don't give specific examples. I mean, just having a quick read of the abstracts for those articles throws up my original point and I think we've got our wires crossed -

I should have said that steroid use CAN indeed cause various health problems, but name a few and there's always a solution.

Orals can cause serious hepatoxicity, so avoid them for long cycles or even all together.

Things like gyno can be easily mitigated.

Losing your hair? You were going to lose it anyway.

Testicular shut-down can be avoided or reversed easily with the correct use of ancillaries.

The big one in terms of shortening your life is LVH, but it's been conclusively proven LVH in steroid users is Athletic LVH, which is benign and seen in plenty of non steroid using athletes. I mean, it's still being closely watched as heavier users age, but so far nothing conclusive has been thrown up.

leave shit skin

Tell me your secrets. What do you use and how much? Details please.

...

Right now?

250mg Test E
200mg Mast E

whatever, nigger

I don't know shit about steroids but i think you have to be a retard to care or think negatively about others steroid use. i'd probably do it if i had been training for years and near my natural limit or whatever

Yeah but you don't know any of this, it's purely conjecture to rationalize your belief that you're going to use steroids responsibly and everyone else just failed to do that.

I don't want to take this argument down to a stupid level because I appreciate how level-headed you've been in spite of our disagreement, but I have lost friends who heroine who literally have made these exact same arguments.


The thing is that you're in a position where you've barricaded yourself into a position that's totally not able to be addressed by evidence. You asked for evidence that this shit is bad for you, so I showed a bunch. Then the argument became that you know these things can have bad effects, but if used properly they won't.

I grant you the benefit of the doubt that maybe we just miscommunicated, but it's worth noting that there's never going to be peer-reviewed studies for each of these substances where people are tested for using them long term under the hyper-specific conditions you're pontificating upon.

At the end of the day it's your body and your decision, but I just want you to recognize that an absence of evidence for a specific situation does not constitute evidence of the contrary.

I realise you posted that as I was posting , but as I said, most of the studies you posted simply cite commonly accepted side-effects that are easily mitigated or reversed, and are not harmful in the long term unless you're an idiot.

Again, I'm still happy to have my mind changed here and will read further.

And yes, this is UGL stuff, but any contamination would throw up problems in the short-term, not the long term. Most reputable labs make HUGE amounts of money and are based in countries where production is legal, if a little unregulated. They have no reason not to be fastidious in their production methods.

Yes, I accept that a contaminated batch could cause issues, and as a hypochondriac it's a worry every time I inject, but if your leg hasn't fallen off within a few days of injecting, you're fine.

UGL gear doesn't cause long term issues any more than pharma grade stuff, which seems to be the (sensible) crux of your argument.

>The big one in terms of shortening your life is LVH, but it's been conclusively proven LVH in steroid users is Athletic LVH, which is benign and seen in plenty of non steroid using athletes. I mean, it's still being closely watched as heavier users age, but so far nothing conclusive has been thrown up.

ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1917226
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1768225/
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10834358

Think that's a faulty claim.

I only look down on roiders who claim to be natty. If you are honest, or at least don't blatantly lie about being on gear, then I really see no problem with it.

How did you get it? A prescription? How do you look before/after? You can cut face.

I'm envious of them. I will never do it and thus will never look like I wan't to.

>Steroid users : lol steroids aren't bad
>NattyBros: wtf yah it is
>Steroid users: prove it fagget
>NattyBros:
>Steroid users: lol cuck I bet ur small

/thread

Will read, but worth noting that I've noticed an odd difference in US and UK papers on the issue.

It seems to be widely accepted that the "roid rage" thing is a total myth, and I've read various papers that confirm this, or at least note that "correlation does NOT equal causation".

Again though, I have no evidence for a US "bias" towards saying "steroids are bad" in academic papers so you are right to inevitably throw the burden of proof onto me and dismiss this as hearsay for now.

Worth noting too though, that the first article you posted there notes specific caution regarding the "ALVH vs. LVH" issue I posted about above. Again, correlation vs. causation. And a lack of enough older guys who are/were heavy gear users as it's only been really popular for about 30-40 years.

Ordered raws from chinaman, made sterons in living room.

Pic related was me right before first blast at 17, 3 years natty lifting

Yeah but dude, the only evidence linking being overweight to heart disease and hypertension is "correlational."

That's because it's a medical study. They can't use controlled conditions to randomly select thousands of people from the population, force them to use steroids at random use, and then keep them in an empty white room until they die.

The fact is that the evidence is consistent.

Drive and intellect are not the result of hard work.

If you're lazy half-wit moron due to being born with an IQ of 3, then you can do little about this.

Hard works allows you to *utilise* drive and intellect, but you need to have them in the first place.

Take an extreme example - someone with Down's can be as determined as they want, but they won't be winning the Nobel Physics prize any time soon.

On the flip-side of the "luck" argument, for every Bill Gates or Richard Branson, there are LOADS of very intelligent, very hard working people who simply never made it in life due to bad luck, or lack of good luck.

Very nice. You'd look sick with a 6-pack.
How do you mitigate side-effects, like shrinking balls, increased heart size, or bad acne? I'm a complete newbie to bodybuilding, so I'd like all the advice I can get. I want to be the best I can be and I'm willing to do anything to achieve my goals.

>Drive and intellect are not the result of hard work.

One of my degrees is in psychology and, again, you're sitting against the research on this one.

Whatever constitutes intelligence doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are plenty of people with high IQs who by all intents and purposes aren't "intelligent." When I say intelligent, I don't mean IQ. I mean taking the time to learn a discipline, read about it incessantly, go beyond your coursework at university, and never be satisfied in learning. Even if your IQ was below average and you did those things, you would be considered by all intents and purposes more "intelligent" than these self-proclaimed college dropout geniuses working at starbucks.

As far as drive, there is no gene isolated for drive. It's a decision.

>Take an extreme example - someone with Down's can be as determined as they want, but they won't be winning the Nobel Physics prize any time soon.

>On the flip-side of the "luck" argument, for every Bill Gates or Richard Branson, there are LOADS of very intelligent, very hard working people who simply never made it in life due to bad luck, or lack of good luck.

I don't disagree with either of these and, in point of fact, I think you're point is still well taken. Sociology is lot a liberal conspiracy and luck has a lot to do with it. I guess my point is that it isn't everything, and I certainly wouldn't say it's "90% luck."

As I see it, luck is just an opportunity that gets taken advantage of.

>shrinking balls

how is that a problem?

You're confusing potential with intellect and drive.
A person can have potential to be very smart but simply choose not to. A person with little intellect can gain a lot through hard work, just like a skinny person with little muscle can become ripped with hard work and determination. Those things are quite the opposite of luck. Some people are born with good genes and are naturally more ripped - that is luck.

>You'd look sick with a 6-pack.

>I'm a complete newbie to bodybuilding, so I'd like all the advice I can get.

reddit.com/r/steroids

I want my balls to keep producing testosterone and such that if I want to stop using sterons, I wouldn't have withdrawl symptoms.

>it's purely conjecture to rationalize your belief that you're going to use steroids responsibly and everyone else just failed to do that.

It is not conjecture to know that the only horror stories I've hard about steroid use are about idiot kids using dirty needles, dodgy gear, injecting totally wrong, and using no AI or PCT. Even then, most of the stories about "a guy who lost his leg due to an abscess" instantly get the old "urban myth" antennae bleeping, because it's always "a friend of a friend" and there is a total lack of names, dates, or places.

>I don't want to take this argument down to a stupid level because I appreciate how level-headed you've been in spite of our disagreement

Thank you. I too am amazed a sensible discussion had been had on Veeky Forums!

> I have lost friends who heroine who literally have made these exact same arguments.

Sorry to hear that, same here. But I note heroin is well known to kill users regularly. There is no recorded case of someone dying from steroid use, as far as I'm aware of course.

>The thing is that you're in a position where you've barricaded yourself into a position that's totally not able to be addressed by evidence. You asked for evidence that this shit is bad for you, so I showed a bunch. Then the argument became that you know these things can have bad effects, but if used properly they won't.

I haven't "barricaded" myself in anywhere. I've said I'll happily destroy my gear if I get evidence they're harmful. As I also said, yes, you have posted evidence steroids can be harmful, but I've already read about this and realise that yes, the negative sides can be avoided quite easily.

cont below.

...

only frowned upon if u do steroids and claim to be natty

cont from > it's worth noting that there's never going to be peer-reviewed studies for each of these substances where people are tested for using them long term under the hyper-specific conditions you're pontificating upon.

Correct. Perhaps worth noting though that I'm simply using Testosterone Enanthate. This is regularly prescribed for TRT in men. I accept orals (specifically 17-AA compounds) can have serious hepatoxic effects. There is plenty of research into the long-term use of long-chain testosterone esters.

>At the end of the day it's your body and your decision, but I just want you to recognize that an absence of evidence for a specific situation does not constitute evidence of the contrary.

Agree entirely. And worth noting two things -

1. Provided "instant death" is not a major risk unless I get gear from some mental guy who's thrown cyanide into the batch, I'm happy to accept some of the other sides.

The big one is infertility, and while many heavy long-term users have fathered children, I accept the risk as I don't want children anyway.

2. I roid to look better. I was always horrifically skinny. We're talking genuine Auchwitz mode. I also had horrible anxiety and panic attacks and could barely eat. Dragged myself out of it "naturally" (after trying, and going through hell, on the "anti anxiety" drugs they pump you full of) but still couldn't eat enough.

Low and behold, got my test levels through and I'm just above the cutoff for TRT. Which explains my symptoms.

Only on week four and I feel better than I've ever done. Stacking on mass, mood is great, no sides, eating well.

Will this all go back to square one when I finish my cycle? Well maybe, but given fucking suicide was on the cars last year (and I attempted it) I'd rather take the chance. And I've spoken to several guys in exactly my position who said it was fine after they stopped cycling and they never went backwards.

Possibly, I'll look into it.

Good points. I get what you're saying there.

Would you not say laziness is inherent though? Can you just "cure" laziness by deciding to get up and change your life one day?

And yes, I know you physically can, but so many don't. Why?

I feel pity for most roiders because 1) they aren't even big, muscle doesn't make up for height 2) lots of them are bald in their 20s.

CHEM is david laid natty?

uh-oh, this roidfag is a little ass discomforted

IDGAF. I used to get annoyed by the guys blatantly on gear trying to shill stupid shit, but now I just think it's funny.

I can see why people would look down on them, but I also get the idea that those people have never been in the upper echelons of anything remotely competitive or they're realize that winners always do literally anything and everything they can to get to where they are, including doping, cheating, or bending rules as much as they can while getting away with it.

reminds me of the whole lance armstrong fallout. like, yea, he was caught doping, but what everyone ignores is that so was fucking EVERYONE ELSE who was anywhere near the top, and he was still the best after that fact.

Sorry about the delay user. I actually went out on a jog.


>Would you not say laziness is inherent though? Can you just "cure" laziness by deciding to get up and change your life one day?

It depends on what you mean by "laziness."

The secret is that there is no unified theory of personality in psychology, and rather what we have is an amalgam of different (verified) viewpoints over time which privilege different paradigms (which are temporally and culturally located).

That being said, human beings are a unique combination of their psychologal, psychosexual, psychosocial, cultural, and sociological experience which all give rise to the first person phenomenon we call life in a conscious mind. This being said, every human being has an ability to make choices in life - the "mileage" of each person's autonomy is what varies.

Some babies have been noted for a predisposition to be more lackadaisical than others, but any number of the aforementioned factors (including choice) will have an impact on this.

I don't want you to think that I'm ignoring the truths of sociology or the degree that luck and chance play into any of these things, but I often fear that this is used by special interest groups to excuse when people make poor decisions.

I'm not sure if this is the same user (I'm guessing it is), but I again appreciate your perspective. I think your points are justified but, again, my initial argument is that you (admittedly) are taking a health risk. I take a health risk when I go out and bang a random slut, and ultimately these are risks we're both taking with our bodies. It seems like you're mature and intelligent about it, but I don't want you to think that excuses or otherwise diminishes the risk you're taking.

youtube.com/watch?v=XhHwAW-yDnY

yeah bud

that man actually looks disgusting

So much this.

>be bodybuilder
>take shitload of gear
>achieve size approaching a shaven gorilla (2 inch dick included)
>preach to the awed masses that its because of your "diet" and "training"
>tell them to buy your programs and supps and they can be big like you
>make money off kids and the mentally handicapped
>live a life of luxury, mild celebrity, and trouble fitting through doorways
>die at age 50

>But you aren't "taking your body to the next level"
If you don't consider this next level then I don't know what to tell you.

You've said enough - you basically don't understand my argument.

An equivocation is a fallacy.

What the fuck is this? Congrats, your delts just convinced me to be a lifelong natty, you look like you got shot with rocksalt.

Most people in this thread believe that steroids, in general, are extremely dangerous. While many steroids are dangerous and have negative effects, a majority of steroid users are not mixing and stacking large amounts of various compounds that the world class bodybuilders are. Many athletes and other world class competitors use extremely high doses of these compounds, sometimes 2-3 times what a normal person would take. While some of these atheletes experience trouble down the road, there are also some that get away free. Now, if someone was to take 1/3 of what a pro athlete was taking and for 1/2 the time, there is an even lower chance that they will be affected by it in the future.

Take HCG then take clomid and nolva for PCT. Your natural test production will be back in 4-6 weeks.

Left is literally a moai, right is a fucking fish

if you do steroids you are automatically a loser, who doesnt represent the dedication and motivation it takes to lift big.
All steroid users are cheating losers. Period.

If I saw you at the gym I would laugh at you

It is for weak minded people who are impatient. No discipline. No value of hard work.

The treacherous path teaches more than the easy road in every instance. If you are truly striving to better yourself, don't find the easy way, challenge yourself and build your character.

>Not cheating

Yes it it, you are cheating yourself. Assuming you could swim from New York to London, it would build your character way more than flying would.

Also, if you believe the people with the most success in the world are lucky cheats, you have a bad understanding of these people. I'm sure a lot of them do cheat, but there are plenty of people who simply work extremely hard to get where they are.

Your use of Trump is a terrible example. People like him don't get where they are by simply cheating and getting lucky. To have success like that, you have to constantly work your ass off

As a chad medical student I've just never seen the need for roids. All the people who roid up in my gym seem dysfunctional and fucked up in the head. I definitely think that they're slightly sub-human, but probably still a slight level above people who don't exercise at all.

>massively helped along if you lie, cheat, and bullshit your way up in life.

You're not supposed to get caught doing it though. That's why roiders are laughed at - the lying and delusion is so pitifully obvious.