A date which will live in infamy

>A date which will live in infamy
Seriously, why? From an outsider perspective, Pearl Harbour is simply a successful japanese attack. It's not like it was a huge surprise for the US, since they knew the Japanese were going to attack, but failed to guess where, american intelligence just fucked up.
So obviously, Roosevelt made a propaganda speech to motivate the american people for the war to come. But why so many Americans, even today, are still mad about Pearl Harbour?
It's almost indecent considering the atomic bombings.

Other urls found in this thread:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#Japanese_declaration_of_war
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>since they knew the Japanese were going to attack,
False. They didn't declare war until after the attack

>From an outsider perspective
No one gives a shit what you think foreigner. Why on Earth do you think you get veto power over which historical events are important moments in American history?
Are you Jewish, is that why?

>Seriously, why? From an outsider perspective, 9/11 is simply a successful Al-Qaeda attack. It's not like it was a huge surprise for the US, since they knew the terrorists were going to attack, but failed to guess where, american intelligence just fucked up.
So obviously, George W. made a propaganda speech to motivate the american people for the war to come. But why so many Americans, even today, are still mad about 9/11?
FTFY

The Japanese attacked the pacific fleet, a completly legitimate military target. Hiroshima and Nagasaki on the other hand weren't.

Btw fun fact:

The only few US civilians who died in the Pearl Harbor attack were killed by American anti-aircrafts shells that fell back on habitations

Ah yes, the great, totally morally justified Iraq war. Another stunning american victory.

>Hiroshima and Nagasaki on the other hand weren't
And why was that?

>Seven civilians were wounded and one killed during a mistaken Japanese attack on the sugar mill at Waipahu. A similar attack at the sugar mill near MCAS Ewa killed two and wounded seven, while another at Wahiawa wounded nine and killed two.

>Several civilian aircraft were in the air over Oahu on Sunday morning. At 7:51 a.m., two Shokaku fighters on their way to NAS Kaneohe fired upon a civilian trainer over the northeastern coastal town of Lai'e. At 7:54 a.m., fighters escorting dive-bombers from Shokaku attacked two civilian Piper Cub trainers. Two of the occupants of the Pipers were missing and one died after landing.

They weren't pissed they got attacked; everyone had been expecting the Philippines to get bombed for months. The reason everyone was so mad was because there was a Japanese envoy in Washington at that very moment supposedly trying to diplomatically avoid a war. The surprise attack wasn't the stab in the back; the duplicitiousness was.

>Hiroshima and Nagasaki weren't legitimate military targets
>the nation that sowed wanton destruction in China as a matter of course suddenly wants to abide by the rules of warfare

That said, Hiroshima and Nagasaki were legitimate military targets. Hiroshima was a major railway routing point and was the headquarters of the army in charge of defending Japan itself, and Nagasaki was home to the biggest naval shipyard in Japan.

>The reason everyone was so mad was because there was a Japanese envoy in Washington at that very moment supposedly trying to diplomatically avoid a war
And the US response was "No oil for you, you must leave China". The negociations had quite clearly failed.

>The negociations had quite clearly failed.
The Japanese quite clearly committed suicide. FIFY.

They had, but the envoy was still there still trying. Most nations do not react well to being attacked with an envoy present under a flag of peace. It makes it seem like the only reason the envoy was sent was as a distraction to cover the preparations for the attack.

And what do you know! That's literally exactly what the Japanese were doing. They didn't tell the envoy that, no sir; he thought his mission was legitimate. But every time it seemed like he managed to somehow pull peace out of his ass between Japan and the US, Tokyo would cut him off at the knees and reject everything he had suggested.

I still feel bad for the poor guy sent to Moscow in the summer of 1945 to plant peace feelers using Stalin and the Swedish Embassy or something like that.

Because at the time it was believed by a majority of the people that the USA was an isolationist state that would stay out of foreign wars of this kind. Regardless of what plans may be made by the brass, the common people believed that their pacificism was taken for granted. On the opposite aisle, the Japanese were heartened by pacifist sentiment, and believed it would translate into motivation for a negotiated end to the conflict, they did not expect total war to result. This was a misreading of the situation. Americans will be exceptionally tolerant, but their traditional response to actual violence has been to bandwagon against it. The Japs might have looked at the US military history. Despite appearances to the contrary, the USA has a tendency to win the wars it fights, even if those wars are fought for stupid reasons, and the ones doing the fighting are of dubious discipline and or loyalty. The Japanese might have remembered the Americans had only recently conquered the land they called home, that the land had been largely a savage frontier, and the descendants of those conquerors still walked around with the swagger one associates with a vigorous people.

I forget which one, but one of them was the main rail hub for all of southern Japan at that point. Pretty important to knock it out if you need to invade

Because it was done before any declaration of war you brainlet. It was an infamous attack because of that, it was not just some successful attack. That of which it was not even that successful. He made that speech to convince the Americans to go to war and congress, even though it was pretty much guaranteed after an attack like that. It's like sucker punching someone when not even fighting, just going up behind them and doing that. Then the person doesn't get knocked out, proceeds to turn around and fucking beat the shit out of you. Then proceed to nuke you when you are down.

>TLDR, talk shit get hit

My fucking sides

>duplicitiousness

It's one of those revisionist myths that the US maintains in order to portray WW2 as a good vs evil narrative.
>Pearl Harbor was a cowardly attack on US soil
>US was a peace-loving isolationist country until Pearl Harbor
>US embargoes Japan because Japan was doing naughty things in China
>Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified because it saved lives
All of the above are false.

>>US embargoes Japan because Japan was doing naughty things in China
>>Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified because it saved lives
Both of the above are true.

US literally didn't give a fuck how many millions of chinks Japs were raping and killing. Then as soon as Japan took over the French Indochina the embargo came. You tell me if the US acted out of its love for chinks.

Never once did he say it would save chink lives

Everything but the peace loving part is true about your post.

>pearl harbor was an unwarranted attack without any proper declaration of war. Cowardly i don't know.
>US embargoes Japan because they are looking to become the major power in the Pacific and they can easily just mask this with the real atrocities they are committing and say it is because of that. Two birds with one stone.
>Hiroshima and Nagasaki did save lives, not Japanese lives but American and allied lives that would have been spent taking the mainland. It also hastened the surrender so the Soviets got less of a grasp of Japan itself and some of Korea.

Woah, it is almost like most countries act within their own interest and the majority of decisions made are aligned with said interest.

>US literally didn't give a fuck how many millions of chinks Japs were raping and killing.
They did because Americans are heavily invested in China's market since the late 19th Century.

It was the whole point of the Open-Door Policy, the takeover of the Philippines from Spics, and American ties with the KMT.

Americans didn't want to get involved in WW2 and before the attack the primary issue at hand was healthcare and education. The attack was basically 9/11 in scale, stopping everything because America was under attack for the first time since 1812.

The result was us nuking them, that's how mad we were.

Incorrect my friend
Japan declared war 20 minuted before the attack

>Btw fun fact from my ass

Both were cities whose industries were heavily involved in the Japanese war effort, both also housed imperial Japanese military facilities. So by any sane (i.e. not ones used by butthurt weaboos) they were completely legitimate targets.

>For decades, conventional wisdom held that Japan attacked without first formally breaking diplomatic relations only because of accidents and bumbling that delayed the delivery of a document hinting at war to Washington. In 1999, however, Takeo Iguchi, a professor of law and international relations at International Christian University in Tokyo, discovered documents that pointed to a vigorous debate inside the government over how, and indeed whether, to notify Washington of Japan's intention to break off negotiations and start a war, including a December 7 entry in the war diary saying, "[O]ur deceptive diplomacy is steadily proceeding toward success." Of this, Iguchi said, "The diary shows that the army and navy did not want to give any proper declaration of war, or indeed prior notice even of the termination of negotiations ... and they clearly prevailed."[76][77]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_Pearl_Harbor#Japanese_declaration_of_war

also,

>In any event, even if the Japanese had decoded and delivered the 14-Part Message before the beginning of the attack, it would not have constituted either a formal break of diplomatic relations or a declaration of war. The final two paragraphs of the message read:

Thus the earnest hope of the Japanese Government to adjust Japanese-American relations and to preserve and promote the peace of the Pacific through cooperation with the American Government has finally been lost.

The Japanese Government regrets to have to notify hereby the American Government that in view of the attitude of the American Government it cannot but consider that it is impossible to reach an agreement through further negotiations.[78]

This

And an atom bomb was totally needed for that? Anyways, I'm not really arguing Hiroshima was a war crime or not, I think it was brutal, but could be justified. I simply can't understand why Pearl Harbor should be considered a war crime when Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not.

>I simply can't understand why Pearl Harbor should be considered a war crime when Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not.
People believe that Pearl Harbor is a war crime?
The Japanese attacked without a formal declaration of war, which is some sort of violation of international law, but it isn't the same thing as a war crime.

>Seriously, why
Because it sounds good. And you have the tism.

>are heavily invested in China's market since the late 19th Century.
on the contrary, US forays into chinese markets were a huge failure. there was a hugely influential china lobby which had very good political connections but this didn't derive from economic connections but missionary activity of protestants

oh wow like 10 dead civilians and 20 injured, guess those nukes are justified now

>From an outsider perspective
Why would the US president give a fuck about an 'outsider perspective'? What the fuck are you even on about?

>People believe that Pearl Harbor is a war crime?
It was classified as such during the Tokyo trials.
>even though Pearl Harbor was classified as a war crime under the 1907 Hague Convention, as it happened without a declaration of war and without a just cause for self-defense

Nice post, Tojo.

>Jordan_Peterson_looking_at _idiot.jpg

>grorious nippon attacking the colonies of friendly countries isn't a legitimate reason to embargo them

>not Jordan_Peterson_channels_his_inner_lobster.swf

>bomb a city before a formal declaration of war
vs
>bomb a city after a formal declaration of war
How the fuck is the latter a war crime you mongoloid?
>b-b-b-but da newks wuz badder!!!
Do you suppose every man who first fired a machinegun in WWI ought to be imprisoned then you luddite?

They spent a billion dollars on the atomic bomb . They weren't going to just not use it. From the perspective of allied command, it was the same as ordering a bombing raid, just with a single bomb. They'd already past the moral event horizon.

Welcome to Total War; it is no longer army vs army but nation vs nation, every man, woman and child goes to war with every man, woman and child from the other nation, the Japanese were clearly harboring delusions of a pre-WW1 conflict if they thought that civilians weren’t targets.

The attack on Pearl Harbor caused the death of 68 Americans. The Japanese mostly attacked the American fleet. Try to compare what happened at Hiroshima, which mostly killed civilians.

Civilians are free game in total war.
See: rape of Nanking

>you luddite

??? ???

>call it a total war to describe the massive loss of civilian life
>justify the massive loss of civilian life because it was a total war, after all

hmmm

>criticize the US for bombing civilians when the Japanese were literally genociding Chinese cities the decade preceding it.

I'm not criticising the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I'm criticising the hypocrisy of Americans who classify Pearl Harbor as a war crime. We all know the Japanese did terribles things. Pearl Harbor wasn't one of them.

>but he dunit too

Reprehensible. No slaughter of civilian life in war is justifiable. Not even Bomber Harris' deeds are ... well maybe those are ok.

I don't know who Jordan Peterson is or what you're trying to say here

Because, you braindead mouthbreathing mongrel, there are laws that define what is or is not a war crime. Bombing a city you were at war with was not a war crime. Bombing an army you were NOT at war with was a war crime.

War crime or not, it's still a reprehensible and evil act.

Why the hell are you even comparing this? Are you implying that the nukes were a direct response to the civilian casualties at Pearl?

user one:
>The only civilian casualties at Pearl Harbor were due to friendly fire from the US
user two:
>That's factually incorrect, and here's a source
You:
>But the US nuked Japan four years later, how does that compare?

Are you larping as a sophist or are you literally retarded?

Which has nothing to do with whether something is a war crime or not, now fuck off retard.

there's no need to be so angry, really

Not arguing with you, but the word you were looking for was "duplicity," not "duplicitousness."

Just trying to save you a few keystrokes in the future.

whining about 10 dead Hawaiians pales into insignificance when set against the 225k civilians killed by fat man and little boy, you murika first hillbilly
10 civilians is a rounding error compared to what you cowards did

It looks like that ship is dabbing

Nobody that you have responded to has complained about civilian casualties during the attack.

Am i being trolled at this point?

There is every reason to be angry. It is not acceptable to be so stupid here.

Dont you have a chinese 5-year old that needs stabbing, Hiro-san?

Are you kidding me? This place strives to reach and excell at new levels of stupidity perpetually.

You’re talking about imperial Japan, a country where surrender was officially forbidden within the army, and the culture was death before dishonour, ie surrender.
Do you really think, if the US hadn’t shown its ability to wipe the japs off the face of the earth without losing a single man, the emperor wouldn’t have called for the mobilisation of the entire civilian populace, and asked them all to fight to the death?
Dropping those bombs was a necessary evil. Instantaneous death of thousands and losing two cities is preferable to a protracted conflict that sees far more death on both sides, the mass death of civilians who were pushed to fight anyway, and probably would’ve left most of japans infrastructure in ruins.
They didn’t even surrender after the first bomb was dropped if I recall correctly, they literally thought it was so powerful that the states couldn’t have had more than one.

>killing innocents is okay because it saves our military personnel

not comparable desu

more innocents would have died in the invasion considering that they would be contracted into service

>innocent civilians in a total war

lel

>Japan
>Having any kind of moral high ground when it comes to threatment of civilians during ww2

>imperial Japan, a country where surrender was officially forbidden within the army, and the culture was death before dishonour, ie surrender.
This is more full of falsehoods and disinformation than even the weeabest of weeaboo muh katana muh samurai muh bushido posts.

>why is an attack undertaken without declaration of war seen as a underhanded and malicious expression of villainy and deception

>The Pacific Theater was nothing but Pearl Harbor and then Hiroshima and Nagasaki as retaliation

I don't even care if you're trolling, this is too entertaining to stop. Please keep posting

the discussion is about civilian deaths in the pacific not the theater as a whole, retard
within those boundaries there's pretty much just 10 dead yankees on oahu and then 400k innocent japanese civilian deaths from US bombs
it wasn't just hiroshima and nagasaki, america firebombed civilians in many other japanese cities as well

>the attack on Darwin didn't happen
>the atrocious abuse of the Philippines didn't happen

>Japan attacked the US while performing overtures of peace negotiations, instigating a war that would have otherwise not existed
>The US ended up winning so they're the bad guys

Lmao are you literally arguing that the US were the bad guys just because Japan picked a losing fight? Because the Japanese had clearly demonstrated in the Sinitic Theater that they would readily kill civilians when they had the capability to do so. It sounds like you're just whining that the war was lopsided. What was the US supposed to do, go easy on Japan? Drag out the war unnecessarily?

You’re arguing with an absolute retard or a troll. No need to continue, everyone can see that guy is clearly an idiot who keeps shifting the goalpost

>Japan attacked the US while performing overtures of peace negotiations, instigating a war that would have otherwise not existed
war was inevitable after the US imposed an embargo knowing that resource-poor japan would have no choice but to fight to obtain the materials it needed to maintain its independence

What about the millions of Chinese civilians that were killed directly or indirectly by Japanese forces?

I feel retarded, as I should.

>Hey, Japan, do you want oil? Stop fucking raping the Chinese.
>THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS YOU ARE FORCING US TO ATTACK YOU SO WE CAN GO INVADE INDONESIA HOW COULD YOU BULLY US LIKE THIS

ultranationalists literally believe this

We had intelligence that an attack was coming about 6 hours before the attack

i am swallowing this bait whole
the Japanese were in negotiations with the US for over a year over the Sino-Japanese War, the subsequent US oil/steel/iron embargo because Japan refused to withdraw, and then tensions that there might be a war
FDR literally states in the same exact speech (and it's corroborated by the historical record) that the Japanese ambassador was literally just speaking with the US the day or two before about how Japan did not want war and only wanted peace and cooperation between the US and Japan.

Japan launching a surprise attack, annihilating over 50% of the USN's capital ships, and killing hundreds/thousands of Americans and Brits over the next few weeks at other islands was proof that the Nips' words weren't worth shit.

they were also literally genociding various Chinese populations at will and treated American/British/Dutch/ANZAC/etc. POWs extremely poorly

they got exactly what they deserved.

Dumbasses in an operations center not realizing that a sub sunk in the security area meant an air attack was on the way does not equal "intelligence" and you know it.

>Japan launching a surprise attack, annihilating over 50% of the USN's capital ships
Do you think the entire USN was at Pearl Harbor, or do you just not know how to count?

what japan chose to do in its own backyard was none of america's business
trade should not be used as a weapon to force judeo-christian values upon others

And what America chooses to do with its own oil is none of Japan's business.

an extremely high plurality of the United States' capital ships were at Pearl Harbor.

8 battleships
>USS Nevada
>USS California
>USS Pennsylvania
>USS Oklahoma
>USS Maryland
>USS Arizona
>USS West Virginia
>USS Tennessee

out of a total of 17

plus the Lexington-class, USS Ranger, Wasp, and Yorktown carriers

sorry I wasn't absolutely accurate in my estimation you fucking autist. my point still stands.

This post is a perfect example of how this guy just keeps shifting the goalpost.
Stop feeding him

Being this retarded should be a crime.
2 wasn’t enough

And out of those 8 battleships, 5 of them were sunk, only 2 permanently. That's not half the Navy's capital ships.

>But why so many Americans, even today, are still mad about Pearl Harbour?
The young generation really isn't. We like anime too much. Also too busy confusing our gender and eating tide pods.

I'm on board with this user now. Either the nipposter is trolling and we're feeding him, or he's genuinely retarded and immune to facts and reasoning. Either way I'm wasting calories trying to argue with him so I'm peacing out to a different thread.

>I am this fucking retarded
you're either the best baiter I've come across in a while or you're actually a fucking dumbshit
literally every battleship was knocked out of commission for a few months at the very least. iirc literally no battleship that was at Pearl Harbor on 7 December was even serviceable even by the time of Midway on 4 June of the following year.
are you seriously that fucking dumb?

america has spent virtually its whole existence in glorious isolation to the point where it thinks itself invincible
pearl harbor, like 9/11, were deeply uncomfortable reminders that it can be poked, and both led to hugely disproportionate retaliatory actions against mostly innocent civilians

>Japanese establish militias to conscript all people to teach them how to fight against the inevitable American invasion
>literal 11 year old girls being trained how to banzai charge and how best to effectively kill an enemy with a bayonet
>innocent
please spend the several hundred dollars on a plane ticket to Kiev and travel to Chernobyl so you can die from the radiation

Stop responding to him

Clearly you are, because the Pennsylvania, Tennessee, and Maryland were all barely damaged. The only reason Maryland and Tennessee weren't on war patrols on the 7th was because they were stuck behind the wrecks of the Oklahoma and West Virginia respectively. Both Maryland and Tennessee were in a last-ditch defensive unit with the USS Colorado off the West Coast in case the US lost the battle of Midway and the Japanese tried to press on further.

Do some basic fucking research if you're going to call people retarded.