Ive been reading more about early Christianity (fedora, but interested in theological history), and can't help but feel that Arianism seems like a more natural way of looking at Christ.
The victorious concept of the trinity is confusing to outsiders and lay people -so Jesus at Gethsemane was one part of God praying to another part of God, come again? And Jesus (though never previously mentioned) has of course always exsisted .. got it.
While God simply creating Jesus as a real, suffering man sent to spread his teachings is simple and more heroic.
Afterall how could Jesus, knowing himself to be divine and destined to simply reunited with his father aspect, really have suffered as a man would have.
I've just been thinking about the story of Jesus and especially his death. Oftentimes Abrahamics see their relationship with God as a top-down affair, but I think Christ showed that their relationship was more egalitarian by treating every mortal with equal dignity, and serving them despite what some would consider his higher station. The sacrifice of Jesus is very powerful when one considers how it inverts the tradition of humans sacrificing things to God; instead, in Jesus, God sacrifices Himself to humanity. I think this could be interpreted to mean that God and humanity are actually the same, and that by sacrificing for the good of God or for others, we're really sacrificing for each ourselves as we are all united in God.
Wyatt Torres
I once read his greatest suffering had to be to think the father abandoned him on the cross. Idk some lad on here said gethsemane is just a later addition against gnostics
Jonathan Sanchez
>The victorious concept of the trinity is confusing to outsiders and lay people It's confusing to everyone because it's nonsense.
Colton Walker
>YO GOD, IT'S ME, YOU And christfags wonder why muslims are a thing?
Justin Sanchez
The Trinity is a political copout to bind together the three major types of Christ Cults present in Rome at the time; the Judaism-Lite that presented the Father as the big cheese, the Messianic cults that were focused on the Son, and the esoteric sects that had the Holy Spirit.
It's not supposed to "make sense", it's supposed to get everyone to shut up and stop revolting.
Gabriel Bell
>in Jesus, God sacrifices Himself to humanity. This is not a new concept, in fact it's one of the elements of Christian theology that Christfags have been debating for eons. Some say that the Book of Job proves what a self-righteous and petty cunt God can be (we already know he/it can be an angry vengeful mofo). The (symbolic) sacrifice of God's own son is meant to be a kind of atonement to humans for all the shit like that which God has pulled. It marks another shift in God's relationship with his creations (see also: Noah, Abraham, Moses, other prophets). That is, God itself 'grows up' and offers Jesus as a token of this. It's up to humans to keep their part of their bargain, until the next shift.
Isaiah Johnson
t.citationless retard.
Jordan Gonzalez
Arius stated that Jesus did not take form until he was conceived in the womb of the virgin Mary.
Who was walking in the Garden of Eden with Adam and Eve? Who spoke to Cain after he murdered Abel? Who advised Joshua on the eve of Jericho? Who wrestled with Jacob? Who was in the fiery furnace with Shadrach, Meschach and Abednego?
No, to deny the eternal nature of Jesus is to claim that Jesus did not create the universe:
Revelation 4:11 “You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.”
You are taking words out of the Revelation, and by such, you are cursing yourself.
I suggest you ditch Arius, who was actually an heretic and never a Christian, and side with Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter and Paul.
Leo Gray
The Trinity is relational even within itself, and desires relationships with his creations.
Camden Moore
Revelation "John" is stark raving mad. I wouldn't put too much store in him.
Revelation was only included to give Jesus a bit of edge.
Henry Jones
>And Jesus (though never previously mentioned) has of course always exsisted .. got it. Jesus was the Angel of the Lord in the OT.
Jacob Anderson
I would have paid good money to watch him get knocked out by Santa Claus
Parker Robinson
>Revelation was only included to give Jesus a bit of edge. Functionally, it married both testaments together.
Angel Rivera
You're not the only one, only someone lettered in the intricacies of theological metaphysics can truly have a grasping of trinitarian doctrine in its own understanding, most other people throughout history have probably been Arian or modalist.
Connor Cook
More like a manufactured controversy for political gain.
Christian Hill
That sounds legit, though so cynical i wonder why any would have accepted it
Cooper Reed
Because a compromise is a solution that everyone can accept, even if it's not exactly what they wanted.
The dogma of the trinity is really a bit woowoo, but eh, it's almost besides the point.
Henry Peterson
John's the only gospel where you can find any semblance of support for the trinity and even then there is also a lot of conflicting material in it.
Oliver Green
christian server bkXHBgq
Zachary Rodriguez
Yeah i also kind of feel that way, the trinity doesnt make much sense, basically god cloned himself, so jesus is god, and at the same time he is not god, rather he is the son of god, he is fully human but fully divine at the same time, and the fuck is the holy spirit?
i mean im not expert on the subject but it makes sense that god is god and christ is just a man who was a son of god
Gavin Martinez
>i mean im not expert Yeah, we did notice it.
Luis Robinson
>The victorious concept of the trinity is confusing to outsiders and lay people -so Jesus at Gethsemane was one part of God praying to another part of God, come again?
God is an intergalactic spirit being. Jesus is a man who is one with God. I am a man who is one with God. Yahweh is hole in space - a nothing - a bunch of serial killers posing as agents of God.
Nicene creed always confused the fuck out of me. Jesus is son of God, but he is also his own father and spirit... wat? wtf were christcuck thinking?
Arianism makes much more sense of Jesus being human son of a divine God.
Michael Gutierrez
The holy spirt is the 'sense' that there is something divine and sacred to existence itself. Being filled with the Holy Spirt is like being awakened/conscious, akin what is often called the Third Eye in eastern religions. Basically it is awareness of our reality, our mortality, our past, our future, something which (so far as we know) no animals can contemplate. This ultimately (in catechism) leads to an acknowledgement of 'something more'.
Liam Howard
>Get a load of this pea-brain barbarian >he can't even into the Holy Trinity
Nathan Nelson
To take one word out of the Revelation is to invite curses and plagues upon yourself.
Your compete and utter inability to understand the Revelation does not reflect poorly on the writing, but on you.
You have not done what is necessary to understand what is clearly the best laid out and organized book of the bible.
Noah Price
Absurd.
John 1 says that the Word (Jesus) was with God and was God…..and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. In John 10:30 Jesus said that He and the Father are one. In John 14:9 He said that anyone who has seen Him has seen the Father. In Colossians 1:15 Paul wrote that Jesus is the (visible) image of the invisible God. In Hebrews 1:3 Jesus is called the exact representation of God’s glory In Hebrews 1:8 God Himself called Jesus God. God’s Spirit is presumed to be one and the same with God just as your spirit is presumed to be one and the same with you. So if God and Jesus are one and the same, and God and His Spirit are one and the Same, then the three are one.
There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4; Isaiah 45:5-6). Yet there are three persons presented as deity in Scripture: the Father (John 6:27; Colossians 1:3), the Son (John 1:1-3, 14; 8:24; 20:28-29; Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13; 2 Peter 1:1; Hebrews 1:10-12) and the Holy Spirit (John 14:16-17; Acts 5:3-4; 2 Samuel 23:2-3; 2 Corinthians 3:18). Lastly, these three are presented as distinct persons (John 8:16-18; Luke 11:1; 3:21-22; Galatians 4:6). Thus from Scripture we learn that although there is one God, there are three distinct persons who are deity. So the Trinity is the biblical position to hold to once one examines what Scripture teaches.
Lincoln Morales
Papist garbage. The Holy Spirit is as much a person as Jesus is a person as the Father is a person.
Kayden Walker
Just something the whore of Babylon would say.
Henry Rodriguez
Trinity in the OT
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1). The Hebrew word for God is Elohim. Elohim is a plural noun but it is used here with a singular verb bara. Elohim speaks of the true God and is always used with a singular verb. In some sense God is both singular and plural
God Says Let Us Let us make humankind in our image, according to our likeness… (Genesis 1). The phrase let us again gives the idea of plurality. The word us cannot refer to angels because angels don't create
And now the Sovereign LORD has sent me, with his Spirit. This is what the LORD says - your Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: I am the LORD your God, who teaches you what is best for you, who directs you in the way you should go (Isaiah 48). In verse sixteen, God the Son is speaking. He identifies the Father [the Sovereign Lord] and His Spirit as having sent Him. In the next verse, the Son is clearly spoken of as the Lord
Father Have we not all one father? Has not one God created us? Why then are we faithless to one another, profaning the covenant of our ancestors? (Malachi 2)
Son Your throne, O God, endures forever and ever. Your royal scepter is a scepter of equity; you love righteousness and hate wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions (Psalm 45)
I have set my king on Zion, my holy hill. I will tell of the decree of the LORD: He said to me, You are my Son; today I have begotten you. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all those who put their trust in him (Psalm 2)
The Holy Spirit The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him - the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD - and he will delight in the fear of the LORD. He will not judge by what he sees with his eyes, or decide by what he hears with his ears (Isaiah 11)
Christopher Martin
The whore of babylon cannot speak, as she is a city that sets upon 7 hills.
She is Rome.
Landon Nelson
(Thanks for proving my point that you have zero ability to understand the Revelation. It might help some lurker.)
Nolan Robinson
k, bud.
The Spirit is a 'person' insofar as every living human who believes is filled with it. It is an ethereal 'person', sure. It is the special divine spark of God, active in the world.
And actually, it is Catholics who insist the spirt is a literal person (part of the one Being of God).
Some people (Muslims) say Gabriel is the Holy Spirit. Meh.
Nathan Fisher
Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; And to the angel of the church in Pergamos write; These things saith he which hath the sharp sword with two edges; And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the Son of God, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass; And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write;
John was as good as a Brother / Xerox copy machine. Write write write Cousin John what you see see see.
Jesus the author and finisher
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David Foster
These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
John was as good as a Brother / Xerox copy machine. Write write write Cousin John what you see see see.
Jesus the author and finisher
Michael Sanchez
if god is omniscient, free will is impossible. if free will is possible god doesn't exist
why would the Holy Spirit be a person? How could someone come to this conclusion?
Caleb Cooper
>if something is this way, then it can't be that way, no matter which way you look at it Atheists are so boring
Easton Myers
>Christfags can't prove me wrong
Asher Johnson
Have you read the apocrypha, the gnostic stuff, the dead sea scrolls, the books of enoch and the ascension of isaiah?
Julian Lewis
So what are you converting or are you just saying the trinity makes no sense?
Isaiah Ramirez
There's about seven different arguments to counter this logic, but since you are rude and not arguing in good faith the best (You) you will get from me is a block quote from CS Lewis giving one possible explanation:
"But suppose God is outside and above the Time-line. In that case, what we call 'tomorrow' is visible to Him in just the same way as what we call 'today'. All the days are "Now" for Him. He does not remember you doing things yesterday, He simply sees you doing them: because, though you have lost yesterday, He has not. He does not 'foresee' you doing things tomorrow, He simply sees you doing them: because, though tomorrow is not yet there for you, it is for Him. You never supposed that your actions at this moment were any less free because God knows what you are doing. Well, He knows your tomorrow's actions in just the same way—because He is already in tomorrow and can simply watch you. In a sense, He does not know your action till you have done it: but then the moment at which you have done it is already 'Now' for Him."
-CS Lewis, Mere Christianity
Austin Butler
I'm not sure the point of theological debate was to arrive at the most easily understood position.
Eli Powell
Compared to, say, modern physics? How much of that seems like arrant nonsense until you understand it?
Hell, wave/particle duality is only one entity shy of the Trinity.
Camden Cooper
The two operate independently of each other.
Leo Flores
Acts 5:3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself?
Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled and grieved His Holy Spirit; So He turned Himself against them as an enemy, And He fought against them.
Mark 3:29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”—
Can you lie to electricity? Can you grieve gravity? Can you blaspheme the wind?
No, you can only do those things to a person.
Caleb Barnes
The Gabriel the muslims speak of is the devil, who told Mohammad that he was Gabriel. And the connection to the Holy Spirit is that the muslims claim that the Comforter promised by Jesus to his disciples is Mohammad, when in reality it was the Holy Spirit given to them in 32 AD, and not a blasphemous heretic 600 years later.
Jonathan Adams
>Submitting God to human reasoning.
William Diaz
Which is why "believe" and "obey" are huge to God. Huge.
Christopher Jackson
>if sugar is sweet, salt is impossible.
Your assertion of something is not evidence that it is true.
Aaron Wright
The greatness of the Trinity lies in the fact the Divine does the unthinkable, that is descends into human form and endures pain and suffering as a loving being amongst His own creation for the sake of HIS creation. If Jesus were merely a created being then Christs' sacrifice would have no meaning. If Christ were merely another creation His life would be no more or less than any of the other prophets. His death would have no true meaning. Deities of all kinds order sacrifices to be made on their behalf. Only Our God sacrifices Himself for our sake.
Dominic Howard
Can't argue with that. The crux of Mohammud belief system is "cause I said so, or else". Christianity aims at a deeper philosophy. Judaism nowadays does, thought it's also very rules based.
