History and Jebus

There is historical fact surrounding Jesus, right? Like, historical sources that are factual- not the Gospels or any supplementary texts?

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Some roman accounts, but no mention of him being any sort of God, just a jewish criminal.

Moses was a real pice shit.

The gospels ARE a historical source, just not one that can be taken literally.

Everything written about Jesus was written later on by members of his cult, or others who were aware of his cult. This makes sense because during his life he was not considered particularly important outside a small part of Judea.

Fact: Jesus never existed. It was just a prank by the Romans to fuck around with the locals.

Understandable but as long as you consider that historical texts like Josephus' Jewish wars were written 8 years or so after the events it describes and the earliest NT texts are from about double that time. Really closer to the time of the focal figure of the religion than with texts of other religions.

Josephus and Tacitus mention him, but just as a passing footnote
His historicity of his existence cannot be debated, but existence of the Jesus in the Bible can be

More than double, hombre.

youtu.be/Tfw2suyUUNw

>John
>1st timothy
Both 2nd century fanfictions.

There are enough attempts to "square the circle" in triangulating events that don't really triangulate in pinpointing the guy, that lends credence to the idea that at the very least, there was a guy in Judea at the time that more or less fit his description.

>cult

>If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
>not a cult

No contemporary accounts my dude.

Faith is all that mattress.

Why are christians such faggots and how did they hear about Veeky Forums?

Veeky Forums is the designated christfag containment board

Pretty sure I learned the difference between a source and a fact in high school.

A tomb painting of a Pharaoh walking with gods is not factual, however we can infer that this Pharaoh existed and religion was an important part of their society.

Similarly Jesus may not have performed miracles, however religious persecution was normal back then it is perfectly feasible they crucified a heretic.

also if Jesus was just made up or some shit the early church never would have made up that the supposed son of God was killed by mere mortals. This I think proves beyond doubt that he was real.

Isn't the Josephus passage a known forgery or am I confusing it with some other 'source'?

I thought that was /pol/.

>the supposed son of God was killed by mere mortals
Why not?

half of /pol/ has evolved to the point that they see Christianity as a weakness and want to revive paganism.

They want to be religious for whatever reason, but one can't call himself Christian while hating on other people and constantly lying. pol is pretty much fedora board, with bunch of angsty teenagers roleplaying as Orthodox Christians, bogans, Catholics and atheists

by the way religion is the opiate of the masses

Everything is /pol/.

Jesus of Nazareth wrote the Gospels and the Revelation.
Look unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith.
King James Version, Hebrews 12:2, self-evident.

Read the same phase in other contexts and you'll see that this verse doesn't imply that Jesus was the author of the Bible or any other sacred text, just that he was the creator and perfecter of Christianity. For example Lincoln's Lyceum address goes as follows:
>At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer. If it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us; it cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

Money loving cunt whores
changed the words. G-D

>Jesus of Nazareth wrote the Gospels and the Revelation.
>Look unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith.
>King James Version, Hebrews 12:2, self-evident.

Mishkan is at Stonehenge Temple 1.2m (4ft) below Heel Stone on the bottom of Scroll Trench,
go unearth the Exodus' Tabernacle, the Seven Spirits of G-D, instead of changing G-D's texts.

Jesus of Nazareth and Original Manuscripts below Heel Stone.

>Mishkan is at Stonehenge Temple, 1.2m (4ft) below Heel Stone on the bottom of Scroll Trench,
>go unearth the Exodus Tabernacle, the Seven Spirits of G-D, instead of changing G-D's words.
>
>Jesus of Nazareth is under Heel Stone, original manuscripts too.

Changed G-D's words. Haha

We deleted them also, LOL

...

Recall it being noted if we applied the same rigorous demand of proofs of Jesus existence to other individuals then we'd be skeptical Alexander the Great or Hannibal Barca existed.

Hey faggot this thread is
about Jebus! not Jesus!

>History and Jebus
Jebus is pre-Israelite, specifically Canaanite, name for the city known as Jerusalem following its conquest by the Israelites under King David. Jebusites is the Canaanite tribe and ethnic group who founded and inhabited the city then known as Jebus.

The Siege of Jebus is a siege described in biblical passages as having occurred when Israelites under King David of Israel besieged the Jebusite city of Jerusalem, then known as Jebus. The Israelites gained access by a surprise assault, making Jebus the capital of a united kingdom of Israel. The identification of Jebus with Jerusalem has been challenged. Niels Peter Lemche notes that every non-biblical mention of Jerusalem found in the ancient Near East refers to the city with the name Jerusalem, offering as an example the Amarna letters which are dated to the 14th century BC and call Jerusalem Urasalimmu. He states that "There is no evidence of Jebus and the Jebusites outside of the Old Testament. Some scholars reckon Jebus to be a different place from Jerusalem; other scholars prefer to see the name of Jebus as a kind of pseudo-ethnic name without any historical background.

Homer Simpson

christian server /bkXHBgq

>cult

>There is historical fact surrounding Jesus, right?
There is biblical fact that the biblical Jesus was someone claiming the world would end before all his apostles died, he was an apolcalyptic preacher.

Just because your cult is popular doesn't mean it isn't a cult

Apostles? Did not have any.
Only an author and finisher.

>Mishkan is at Stonehenge Temple, 1.2m (4ft) below Heel Stone on the bottom of Scroll Trench,
>go unearth the Exodus Tabernacle, the Seven Spirits of G-D, instead of changing G-D's words.
>
>Jesus of Nazareth is under Heel Stone, original manuscripts too.
>
>Changed G-D's words. Haha

There you go, Jebus

>Some roman accounts
No there aren't. List them if you can.

Neither mentioned him by name, just other people that Christians later said oh that must have been Jesus!

There’s one passage where he mentions Jesus in passing and another where he says something about him (don’t really remember what). The latter has been proven fake/added, but I have no idea about the former.

>one can't call himself Christian while hating on other people and constantly lying.
Strange, I thought that was the modus operandi of christians.

The difference being that Jesus has a fuckload of supernatural claims so intrinsically connected to him that most people have huge problems disconnecting the various religious understandings of Jesus with the historical person.
With that being said the claim that some preacher named Jesus ran around ancient palestine is not exactly an implausible statement.

basically this. His mention of Jesus is considered authentic, but Christians tacked on some other stuff later on to validate their beliefs.

the word cult does not necessarily have negative connotations, especially when using it in a historical context.

Back to r/atheism

Look, you dig my ark of my covenant up and then
I spark my universal magnetic reversal and then
Everyone gets to see my universe recharging.

Satan the Devil (watch my reversal)

Tacitus

>"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judæa, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind."
>It doesn't say Jesus Christ so it's not about him

Fuck off, Richard Carrier.

saving this image

As someone who don't interact with christians on a regular basis I can assure you that that is my sincere experience of christians.

Not him but how can you not understand that a source speaking about X isn't evidence for Y?

From the mindset of the time period, doesn't make him look very tough.

I truthfully don't know what you're trying to imply with this reply. If you're implying that this passage vindicates the entirety of the gospel then I invite you to reread the comment chain because I was merely replying to the dipshit that wants to assert that Tacitus somehow is referring to a different founder of Christianity that was executed by Pilate and whom the sect was named after. I was merely providing a Roman source who referenced the existence of Jesus.

If you're implying that Christus is not indeed Jesus then I'm gonna have to ask you to provide some pretty solid proof about either mistranslation of this passage or the existence of another Christus whom was executed by Pilate during the reign of Tiberius and started a religion whose followers were persecuted by Nero.

If you're implying that this passage was forged, then I'm going to have to ask you supply some proof for this that has slipped past the countless scholars on the subject over the years since no credible scholar (even the fringe Mythical Christ looneys) believes this passage to not be Tacitus' own words.

I was merely pointing out the fact that the quote is talking about christians and is not a source supporting the authenticity of Jesus as it merely points out the christian PoV.

Of course. Dozens. Jews, Romans, Greeks, Christians; the amount of information on the most famous person on earth written of in the two most published books on earth is more than you can study in one lifetime.

Upon who's life is the Christian POV based on?

*superfluous on

D-E-V-I-L-S... Devils!

Go! Sparky! Go!

Didnt Paul exchange letters with seneca's brother?

there was no paul

Jew
Josephus
“…and brought before them the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James, and some others; and when he had formed an accusation against them as breakers of the law, he delivered them to be stoned”.

Talmud
“Jesus the Nazarene was hanged and a herald went forth before him forty days heralding, Jesus the Nazarene is going forth to be stoned because he practiced sorcery and instigated and seduced Israel to idolatry. Whoever knows anything in defense may come and state it.” But since they did not find anything in his defense they hanged him on (Sabbath eve and) the eve of Passover.”

Jesus as a sorcerer with disciples (b Sanh 43a-b)
Healing in the name of Jesus (Hul 2:22f; AZ 2:22/12; y Shab 124:4/13; QohR 1:8; b AZ 27b)
As a torah teacher (b AZ 17a; Hul 2:24; QohR 1:8)
As a son or disciple that turned out badly (Sanh 103a/b; Ber 17b)
As a frivolous disciple who practiced magic and turned to idolatry (Sanh 107b; Sot 47a)
Jesus’ punishment in afterlife (b Git 56b, 57a)
Jesus’ execution (b Sanh 43a-b)
Jesus as the son of Mary (Shab 104b, Sanh 67a)

Roman
Tacitus

Gaius Suetonius
“He expelled from Rome the Jews constantly making disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus…”

Mara Serapion
God justly avenged these three wise men.... and the Jews, desolate and driven from their own kingdom, live in complete dispersion. ...nor is the wise king, because of the “new law” he laid down.”

Pliny the Younger
“They affirmed, however, that the whole of their guilt, or their error, was, that they were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up.”

there is no you

Clement of Rome
“The Apostles received the Gospel for us from the Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was sent forth from God. So then Christ is from God, and the Apostles are from Christ. Both therefore came of the will of God in the appointed order. Having therefore received a charge, and being fully assured through the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ and confirmed in the word of God will full assurance of the Holy Ghost, they went forth with the glad tidings that the kingdom of God should come. So preaching everywhere in country and town, they appointed their first fruits, when they had proved them by the Spirit, to be bishops and deacons unto them that should believe.”

Thallus
“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness. The rocks were rent by an earthquake and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness, Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Savior falls on the day before the passover.

But an eclipse of the sun takes place only when the moon comes under the sun. And it cannot happen at any other time… Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth hour to the ninth-manifestly that one of which we speak.”

Luke 23
Now it was about the sixth hour, and there was darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. Then the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was torn in two. And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, ‘into Your hands I commit My spirit.’” Having said this, He breathed His last.

haha, good one. jebus

This

Lucian of Samosata (120 – 180 AD)
Lucian was a 2nd century Greek satirist who ridicules both Christians and Jesus. He was well educated and more than 80 books bear his name. Notably, in his writings he confirms that Jesus was executed via crucifixion and that he was the founder of Christianity:

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day- the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account… It was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers from the moment they are converted and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws”

Gary Habermas demonstrates that, from extra-biblical sources alone, Jesus had a brother called James (Josephus), and was located in Palestine (Tacitus, Lucian, Acts of Pilate). Jesus was known to be a wise, virtuous and ethical man (Josephus, Mara Serapion) who was reported to have both performed miracles (Acts of Pilate) and made prophecies that were fulfilled (Phlegon, cf. Josephus). A result of his ministry was that he had many disciples, from both the Jews and the Gentiles (Josephus, Talmud). At the beginning of his ministry he encountered a man called John the Baptist of whom baptized him (Josephus).

Jesus was worshiped as a deity (Pliny, Lucian), and some believed he was the Messiah (Josephus) and called him “king” (Mara Serapion). Some people saw Jesus as a philosopher with unique teachings (Lucian, Mara Serapion, Gospel of Thomas). The Jewish leaders judged Jesus as guilty of apostasy (Talmud, cf. Apocryphon of John), and no-one came forward to support Jesus in his trial (Talmud).

He died at the hands of Pontius Pilate (Tacitus) who crucified him (Josephus, Talmud, Lucian, Gospel of Truth, Acts of Pilate). The event occurred on Passover Eve (Talmud), he was nailed to a cross (Phlegon, Gospel of Truth, Acts of Pilate, cf. Tacitus), and after his death the executioners gambled over his clothing (Acts of Pilate). There was a three-hour darkness at the moment of the crucifixion (Thallus, Phlegon), and an earthquake (Phlegon), all of which corroborates New Testament events.

Jesus’ teachings spread after his death (Tacitus, cf. Suetonius, Pliny), the Christian religion was named after Jesus (Tacitus), Christians formed a section of society (Pliny), and exercised faith in Jesus’ teachings (Lucian). Christians also believed in their own eternal immortality and scorned death (Lucian), and that Jesus’ death procured their salvation (Gospel of Truth).

The disciples never abandoned Jesus’ teachings even in persecution (Josephus), and many Christians were exiled from Rome for their beliefs in him (Suetonius). Many were also still present in Rome by the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD (Tacitus, Suetonius). They were also described as law breakers for meeting in secret, and were blamed for drinking blood, and burning their children (Pliny, cf. Trajan, Hadrian).

According to Habermas a few of the forged Gnostic sources are also corroborative of the New Testament literature. They relate that on one occasion that Jesus asked his disciples who they thought he was (Gospel of Thomas), that Jesus was flesh and blood (Gospel of Truth, Treatise on Resurrection), and that he had the title “Son of Man” (Gospel of Thomas). Jesus was also said to be the “Son of God” (Treatise on Resurrection, Gospel of Truth, Gospel of Thomas).

>the son of God, a being outside of time omnipotent all seeing all powerful and unrivaled, was blown the fuck out by a few latin manlets with shortswords

why didnt he just cast a fuckin fireball at them or something

So a quote quite literally detailing Jesus existing, being executed, and a religion springing up around his life is somehow not valid to you because you're applying faulty grammatic principles to a latin translation? Like I said, every scholar on the subject views this as substantive evidence for a historical record of the three aforementioned aspects of the life of Christ.

If you don't find it convincing enough, show me a passage from Tacitus which delineates that he is relaying the Christian myth rather than making statements or show me a translation which spells this out.

Jesus is my favourite authour who is yours?

The passage outlines what these Christians believe, passed on as hearsay: Roman records would have noted the name of the person being executed, not the religious title given to him by his followers.

The passage doesn't even give us 'Jesus', much less his family name.

It is also notable that Pilate was a prefect, not a procurator.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

You're talking my comment and spinning it way out of proportion mate.
I haven't said that the quote is not valid. I don't even know where you get that from.
The quote in question is useful in demonstrating that the concept of Jesus as a living, actual being which christianity is based on is almost as old as the religion itself. However, due to the lack of knowledge regarding where he got the information from we can not honestly say that it's direct evidence of the historicity of Jesus. As I've previously stated, the proposition that some guy named Jesus preached in Palestine around the third decade CE is not exactly a spectacular claim as the whole empire was filled with street preachers and cults at the time. As such it's highly plausible that he just took the christians' word for it rather than going through the ordeal of collecting and evaluating bureaucratic traces from a periphery province that would prove or disprove something so ridiculously pointless to him.

My favorite author is Jesus of Nazareth too he fooled so many.

there was no pilate

>there are people on this board who have never heard the word cult used outside of its pop culture definition

It wasn't exactly a fight. He wanted to be executed.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Seems like yesterday that I wrote this way too funny. G-D

Being tough is not a virtue in christianity.
Besides, a humanity so sinful that it performs deicide is just the kind of shit christianity is all about.