Find a flaw

An iteration of TM. Find a flaw.
>Monday
Squat 3x5@85%
Bench 5x5@85%
DL 3x5@85%
Facepulls
>Wednesday
Front squat 3x3
OHP 3x5
Back extensions
Chinups
>Friday
Squat, bench, DL 5rm
Chinups

Differences with vanilla TM
>Monday
-2 sets squat
+2 sets DL
>Wednesday
None
>Friday
Deadlifts instead of cleans

Find a flaw (you won't)

Wtf, this isn't PPL...

Flaw - you give a shit about someone else's opinion.

Yes it is, PPL 3 times a week. Each day has a push, a pull and a leg lift.

I'm always open to discussion

Nah bro push/pull/legs is 1 day dedicated to each, not hitting everything in one day. Not a bad routine either way though

Fair enough.

I do a PPLPPLx about 20 sets for each day. Do as much weight as you can to barely complete each set (so like 1 or 2 reps left int he tank at the end of the set) Move up or down in weight between sets as you need to. A lot of this is Arnold's "advanced lifting" plan, incorporated into my own PPL routine. Rest 1 minute in between sets

Push:
Incline Bench 4sets: 10 reps, 8 reps, 6 reps, 4 reps
Flat Bench: 4x10,8,6,4
OHP: 4x10,8,6,4
Incline DB Press: 3x10,8,6
Incline Flies 3x10,8,6
DB Pullovers: 2x15

Pull:
Pendlay Rows: 4x8-12
Romanian Deads: 3x10,6,4
T-Bar Rows: 4x15,12,8,6
Wide Grip Pullups 4x10 minimum
Close Grip chins: 4x10
Curls: 2x10

Legs:
Squats: 4x10,8,6,4
Front Squats: 4x10,8,8,6
Hack Squats: 3x10
Leg Curls: 4x20
Calf Raises: 2x15

Do abs every day, and Forearms (4x10 DB forearm curl, 3x10 reverse) 3 days per week

An user in a different thread told me that abs should be done every other day, but I haven't looked into it yet.

Any thoughts on how I could improve my routine?

If I had enough time to do a PPL, I'd to it as follows:
>Push 1
Bench 5rm
OHP 3x5@90% of previous 5rm
Incline DB bench
dips ss with facepulls
>Pull 1
Weighted chin-ups 5rm (treat them like a barbell lift and progress in weight)
Chest supported or seal rows 3x5@90% of previous 5rm
T-bar rows
curls
>Legs 1
Squat 5rm
Deadlift 3x5@85% of previous 5rm
Hanging leg raises superset with leg press superset with back extensions

PPL2 would be same as PPL1 but alternate the first 2 exercises each day
PPLPPLx

Main differences from your routine:
>high specificity in exercise selection
>high specificity in programming overloading
>deadlifts on leg day to make sure I only fatigue lower back 2 times a week and not 4
>rows are chest supported or seal for the same reason, keep those erectors fresh for leg day
>ab work is enough 2 times a week imo
>direct forearm work isn't necessary if you hit them 4 days a week on pull and leg days
>incline bench should definitely not be first, no, you won't grow tits with flat bench
>you should definitely do a set of facepulls for every set of incline or flat bench

Do light pause squats on RD and do heavy fronts 3x3 after intensity squatting and DLing. There, it's better.

this

flaws I see with a cursory glance at this
1. Squat volume is very low, lower than a novice LP would be - you are unlikely to progress for very long using a stimulus as small as 3x5@85% (assuming of Friday's 5rm) for your VD
2. Low bench press volume (even lower if you plan to alternate like the original TM template states)
3. Low upper body volume in general
4. Consider using a less fatiguing variant of deadlift on Monday that addresses some weak point (deficit deadlifts, pulls to knees, paused deads) or RDLs/SLDLs
5. it's texas method, it will almost inevitably give you some short bursts of gains before running you headlong into walls of fatigue, leading you to deload, work your way back up for some meager PRs, and repeat the fatigue-crash-deload cycle (you can prolong this by being talented or by eating yourself into near obesity)

you might as well move to a routine with a monthly periodization scheme that allows you to train with more volume and doesn't demand that you peak at the end of every week (build strength instead of testing it)

FWIW even mark rippetoe and most of the SS coaches on their forum do not recommend the texas method anymore

Not who you are replying to. But i am curious, what should i run after Starting Strength? I read one of the coaches recommending and upper/lower routine but i don't know how that routine would look like. Personally i think an upper / lower 4 times a week sound like a lot of fun. Any suggestions on how to set it up? Practical Programming third edition mentions it briefly but does imo provides little info on how to set it up.

I am not a powerlifter but i'd like to get get my newb gains from SS and then doing something for advanced novices and after that just jump over on hypertrophy.

if you would like to stick with the SS-offshoot routines, consider something like HLM (heavy light medium), look up "Andy Baker HLM" to read about how to set this up

if I were you I would avoid rippetoe-offshoot routines after the beginner stage, I did nothing but these routines for a long time and the lack of periodization beyond week long cycles and relatively low volume and lack of accessory work really held me back

you could move right on to monthly periodization using something like 5/3/1 (latest version), Juggernaut Method, 28 free programs, which would be my recommendation

>5/3/1 (latest version)
Beyond?

yeah I think that's the latest relevant one, it has joker sets and FSL so your volume will be high enough to progress (the original 5/3/1 was a complete heap of shit where you did one working set a week)

you might also want to do a close variant of the alternate lift after the main lift, to effectively double the frequency (might want to leave out the FSL work if you do this, it's going to be a ton of per-session volume otherwise)

i.e
Squat 5/3/1, jokers
Deficit deadlifts
accessories

Deadlift 5/3/1, jokers
squat variant
accessories

Thanks, i will look it in to it. I thought that you where supposed to (or it was logical) to do weekly progression after you are done with your daily progression and then once weekly progression don't work its on to monthly.

>Do light pause squats on RD
I've been thinking about that, I'm just afraid that I'll go too light on RD and it will be pointless or I'll pause for too long and fuck up on ID
>heavy fronts 3x3 after intensity squatting and DLing
That's a very good idea user, thanks
>and do heavy fronts 3x3 after intensity squatting and DLing
That also sounds good. How would you add more OHP volume on Friday? Repeat Wednesday's session?
Thanks for the detailed reply!
>1
It's literally only 2 sets less than vanilla TM, which is offset by 2 extra sets deadlift. Wrong? Also, I may add some backoff sets, as I replied in this post to the previous user
>2
I don't plan to alternate - it's exactly the same volume as vanilla TM. Is benching heavy twice a week too little? All UL programs have the same volume, don't they?
>3
What would you add and where?
>4
Whenever I do "variation lifts" instead of main lifts for one of the two weekly sessions, when the "main lift" session comes along I feel I've "forgotten" both the bar path and mind/muscle connection and how to handle a heavy load on my spine, that's why I prefer doing the main lift 2x week
>5
I agree, that's why I tried to make it more manageable in terms of volume
>monthly periodization scheme
I'd rather not, I'll be coming off a long hiatus. I'll do SS for a couple weeks (daily progress) and I think the logical step would be to go for weekly progress before going for monthly
>doesn't demand that you peak at the end of every week
I agree with that, but I haven't found any 3/week routine that addresses that. Do you have any suggestions that cover the following criteria?
>weekly
>3/week FB
>sick gains
>focus on the big 3, ohp and chin-ups
>no WLing
>no 100 accessories
>no bro bs
Thanks

Could we make it somehow work with 3/week?
I'm the OP and btw
Like,
>Monday
Squat 531+jokers
OHP 531+jokers
DL light
Chinups
>Wednesday
OHP light?
Bench light?
?????
>Friday
DL 531+jokers
Bench 531+jokers
Squat light
Chinups

hello user

1. The deadlifts (especially if done conventional) are too dissimilar from the squats to be able to make up for the decrease in squat volume IMO, I would keep this at 5x5 and around 85% of your Friday 5rm.
2. Vanilla TM bench volume is insufficient for almost anyone, even without alternating. You do a hard 5x5 Monday, essentially nothing Wednesday (3x5 OHP won't really drive your bench up as an intermediate), and then you hit a max set on Friday (basically no volume here). Here is what I would do without going against the spirit of the program:

Monday
Bench 5x5
Close Grip Bench 3x8
+ direct bicep work

Wednesday
Press 3x5

Friday
Bench 5RM, 3RM, 3x2, or 5x1
+ direct tricep work (maybe LTEs, skullcrushers, or even just pushdowns or something)
+ direct chest work (DBs, pec deck, flyes)
+ direct bicep work

it shouldn't add much time to your longest day (3 sets of 8 on CGB is really easy to just bang out with 3 minute rests or so), and it adds much needed volume to your lowest volume day in the form of accessory work

3. I somewhat addressed this in 2 as far as upper body pushing volume goes, and I think doing chinups 1-2x a week and rows 1-2x a week (fit them in anywhere you have energy) is good enough.

4. You won't forget how to deadlift in a week, especially if your VD deadlift accessory is somewhat similarly loaded to a conventional deadlift (I would recommend deficit deadlifts or paused deadlifts here)

5. That's the trap you fall into with TM - you need X amount of volume to progress on your lifts, but you may not be able to recover and dissipate all that fatigue generated on your volume day in time for ID, where the program demands that you PR weekly. If you decrease this volume, you do not progress. If you make volume too high, you accumulate too much fatigue and fail ID. Even with volume dosage being just about right (enough to progress, not too much to recover) you may still get residual fatigue creeping in from week to week.

Cont.

UNF
Where can I find a thick squat qt? I just want to make her happy

I lift once a week.

OHP
Bench
DL

Find a flaw with that routine.

5. Cont.

The people who make the greatest gains with TM tend to be people who don't need a lot of volume to progress, or have an absolutely monstrous ability to recover in short periods of time. As a generalization, the people I've seen really make great gains on TM have been young, eating a ton, and tend to be favorably built for squatting (if you are built poorly for squatting and it tends to hammer your lower back due to your natural forward lean, it will be tough to recover because the lower back is a real piece of shit)

As far as monthly progress vs weekly, the difference is really not as big as it seems. The rate of progression the program states is not necessarily your rate of progression, with something like 5/3/1 you could easily be making 10-15lbs a month of strength gains even though the program only calls for a 5lb increase in training max in that time period (you would see your AMRAP sets shoot up)

And yes, you can make 5/3/1 a 3 day, there are existing templates out there for a 3 day 5/3/1 that work very well. There is also nSuns 5/3/1 which comes in 3, 5, and 6 day editions irrc

>Squat volume is very low, lower than a novice LP would be - you are unlikely to progress for very long using a stimulus as small as 3x5@85% (assuming of Friday's 5rm) for your VD
most people need much lower volume for squats than the upper body (longer time under tension etc.). it's just that all the beginner workouts popular here are very unbalanced and not really suitable for the goals of 99% of Veeky Forums

1/3
>deadlifts are too dissimilar from squats to be able to make up for the decrease in squat volume IMO
But 5x5 squats kill me user, 3x5 DLs don't though
>Vanilla TM bench volume is insufficient for almost anyone
I progress very well with 5x5@85% and a 5rm 2x week on bench, trust me, I really can. My only complain is that I can't see where to fit OHP
>Here is what I would do [...]
How about this? Similar to what you said:
Monday
Bench 5x5@85%
Wednesday
OHP ?x?@?
Friday
Bench 5rm
CGBP 3x8@60%
>and it adds much needed volume to your lowest volume day in the form of accessory work
Didn't you just add the cg bench on Monday which is the highest bench volume day? Or do you mean the isolations?
>doing chinups 1-2x a week and rows 1-2x a week (fit them in anywhere you have energy) is good enough.
I'll try to address that later
>You won't forget how to deadlift in a week
Trust me, I really do. Squat, Bench, OHP and DL HAVE TO be trained 2x week for it to work.
>especially if your VD deadlift accessory is somewhat similarly loaded to a conventional deadlift (I would recommend deficit deadlifts or paused deadlifts here)
The problem is not the similarity, but that even the tiniest deviation from conventional deadlifts forces you to reduce weight. The weight will already be too low because of the 5x5 squat fatigue, and reducing it even further because of the pause or deficit variation causes a large deviation from the weight I'll be using on Friday.

>Find a flaw
No rows for the hoes.

2/3
>you need X amount of volume... If you decrease this volume, you do not progress. If you make volume too high, you accumulate too much fatigue and fail ID.
Fuck, that's exactly my problem
>The people who make the greatest gains with TM ... have an absolutely monstrous ability to recover in short periods of time
That I don't, but /plg/ says I'm being a bitch and I should eat 5000 kcal daily. Yeah, no, I'm at 20% fat already.
>As a generalization, the people I've seen really make great gains on TM ... tend to be favorably built for squatting (if you are built poorly for squatting and it tends to hammer your lower back due to your natural forward lean, it will be tough to recover because the lower back is a real piece of shit)
Yup, that's me
So, does this look like it would work? I know I'm annoying you, but is there a glaring flaw? What can we do for OHP?

Monday
Squat 4x5@85% (1 set less than TM, but see friday)
Bench 5x5@85%
Deadlift 1x5@85%
Static holds 2xF @ DL 5rm weight
biceps, facepulls

Wednesday
Pause squat 2x5
OHP 3x5
chinups

Friday
S/B/D 5rm (but warm up with 5s instead of 1s, so the 1 less set of 85% squats on monday is inside here)
Front squat 3x3
CG bench 3x8
chinups

3/3
>...with 5/3/1 you could easily be making 10-15lbs a month of strength gains even though the program only calls for a 5lb increase in training max in that time period
Isn't that a case of YNDTP though?
>And yes, you can make 5/3/1 a 3 day, there are existing templates out there for a 3 day 5/3/1 that work very well
I have only seen the following 3 day templates:
>Beginner 531
I'm not a beginner
>building the monolith
Roid volume, ridiculous
>Full body Full boring
That one could work, but it's way too PL-specific, I'd like some more OHP and chin-ups somewhere. If you could post an idea on making it work I'd be grateful
>UxLxUxx LxUxLxx
That's Wendler basically saying "If you really want to do 531 (any variant) and really only have 3 days a week, you can 'bleed' the 4th day of every week into the next week, and each 3-week cycle becomes 4 weeks long" (3x4=4x3, and 1 week deload in both cases)
My problem is that 1.5x week upper body is ridiculously low volume, just no. I'm really against that.
>I don't know what to call this one
I haven't seen an official wendler program that addresses this, just suggestions from people in forums. Basically goes like this
Monday
Squat and OHP 531
Wednesday
Bench 531
Friday
Deadlift 531
>nSuns 5/3/1 which comes in 3, 5, and 6 day editions
I know that one
Positives:
weekly progress, autoregulated according to how many reps you got on the AMRAP set. 10/10 exactly what I'm looking for
Negatives:
there is no 3/week program, there's 4, 5 and 6. I've looked it up.
Zero OHP focus on the least day template (4/week)

Idea:
Could we somehow combine the last two into the following program?

Monday
Squat and OHP 531 (nSuns sets, won't type it every time)
Deadlift light
Curls, facepulls

Wednesday
Bench 531
Chinups
OHP light

Friday
Deadlift 531
Squat light
Bench light
Chinups

Is there a glaring flaw?

"My opinion about barbell rows is as follows: fuck barbell rows." - Mark Rippetoe

That guy sounds like a pussy

The issue is that it's lower volume than SS, which is what he's coming from. 9 hard sets of back squat a week vs 4 sets of back squat and 3 of front squat, it is not a recipe for progress.
I think CG works well on the higher volume day adding a little extra stimulus (5x5 bench is not as much of a stimulus as 5x5 squat), and then the isolations make up the volume on ID.

If you are 20% bodyfat, your priority should be getting down to a bodyfat range where you will be in a position to eat as much as you need to recover without bulking yourself into actual obesity.

That setup looks fine, but I'd still opt for a deadlift variant on Monday. Since it's a high stress day, and you want to handle heavy weight, consider doing deadlifts to the knees for 2-3 sets.

It's not a case of YNDTP, the program has AMRAP sets built in to allow you to progress in ways other than adding 5lbs to your training max.

>If you are 20% bodyfat, your priority should be getting down to a bodyfat range where you will be in a position to eat as much as you need to recover without bulking yourself into actual obesity.That setup looks fine, but I'd still opt for a deadlift variant on Monday.
It is actually, I'm cutting on a 25% deficit atm.
Could you please address the >full body full boring and the very last program (nSuns 3/week) I posted here? thanks.
Post back big boy

you are working shoulders once a week

Nigger, you don't even know what a PPL is. Fuck off.

wwyd?

Each day must be dedicated solely to push, pull or legs, this way you avoid overtraining a certain muscle/muscle group.

(It was a joke)

Where did you get that picture?

Not him but just do lateral raises.

There's no way 3x5 squats at 85% will drive your intensity days
3x5 deadlifts should be a variation, like paused or deficit deads
Read the book pls ffs

I would definitely burn out my CNS doing this. it has gotten better recently for sure, but I feel like my CNS is still shit tier
>skelly diet and diagnosed as teen is the reason for shit CNS
Any program to target CNS or do I just stick to whats working for me atm?(531 @ 0,66/1/2/2 5rm)

>you might also want to do a close variant of the alternate lift after the main lift, to effectively double the frequency (might want to leave out the FSL work if you do this, it's going to be a ton of per-session volume otherwise)
That's what I do, joker sets as high as I can on really good days, and multiple sets of first set last after the amrap set. Then I move from back squats, for example, to front squats and finish off with a few sets of them. Or maybe some leg press.

I read both ss and pp multiple times.
"TM is a method, not a template"

But the core of the program is volume days driving intensity days and your squat volume is very low
Read lascek's take on tm, especially that chart thingy

Post body, height and weight.
Found 3 flaws right there.

Fuck off.

>(I was only pretending to be retarded)

Lascek actually recommends the 3x5 for volume days, which is in line with all his other advice (he has no idea what the fuck he's talking about at all, he just happens to be tremendously physically gifted)

The Lascek version of TM with 3x5 @ 85% Volume days for both bench and squat is the stupidest idea ever, surefire way to not make any progress unless you're the type of person to make progress from looking at a barbell

Fuck all shoulders, your bench will be weak as fuck.

You could try something like the split I'm doing, or you could do squat/deadlift volume on one day and intensity on another. I don't think it's possible to do the same with the presses tho

I've read them. The relevant templates the what I want are the following and next I post a reason why I don't think each would work
1) it moves VD squats one day closer to ID. Less rest. Bravo.
2) I'll actually apply that if I end up doing TM
3) very interesting but I really want to avoid cleans. I also can't understand for the life of me why he doesn't write DLs as 5rm but 1x5.
Also I don't know if I can do an effective heavy set just 2 days after heavy squats
4) I wonder if I can combine that with 3) actually. It would be pretty in line with what I want
5) irrelevant but I haven't done TM in a while. I'll do it and we'll see how I recover
6) irrelevant
7) his approach is really stupid here I don't even
8, 9, 10, 11, 12) irrelevant

I'm looking for a strictly 3/week routine

>diagnosed as teen
diagnosed with what?

CFS

good luck with that mate!

thanks

>Rippetoe
>Rip off of a Ripp routine
>Texas Method
>Texas Method stupid copy
>5s
>that smart use of volume and intensity
>Maxing at 5s
>Squatting 3x a week
>Benching 2x
>OHP 1x
>Gotta credit the lack of cleans and the addition of DLs tho
>Smol and silly exercise selection
>PPL wut
>asking opinion about this shit on Veeky Forums
Good routine, OP.

So you have a better routine to recommend?

Why is the deadlift not considered legs in this image
Like I get that the spinal erectors are involved and all that but isn't it primarily a hamstring exercise

I've been doing this routine for a bit and its given me a perfectly symmetrical set of lifts, I work out 6 days a week and do a 5k run every pull day:

Push:
Flat Bench (alternate bar/dumbell each day)
Squats
Incline/Dips (alternate)
OHP
Shoulder Flies
Tricep Extensions
Weighted Crunches

Pull:
Deadlifts
Wide-Grip Pullups/Chins (alternate each day)
Reverse-Grip Barbell Rows
Chins/WGP (whatever I didn't do first)
Facepulls
Hammer Curls

I do 1-5 rep sets of the main compounds, anywhere from 5-12 on the rest.

I'm 165lbs with a 245x5 bench, 325x5 squat, 425x5 dead and 155x5 OHP.

I get absolutely fucked if I don't do like 15 minutes of stretching after every workout, seems impossible to do heavy sets 6 times a week without it.

Now you asking too much, OP just wanted people to find flaws.
DL is a fullbody lift, but it is still a pull.

For light squats, the point of RD is not to accumulate work. The point is to promote recovery by getting some blood flow and to reinforce the motor pattern, which is does very well.

In terms of adding more OHP volume - I've never done too much OHP volume, it's so easy to recover from. I'd say you could get away with adding 3 or 4 back off sets or even 4x8-12 klokov presses or something. Guarantee you'll be ready for Monday's pressing if you add this.

From this board, a day or two ago

Yeah I'd say add some sensible strength programming to the beginning of each day. You'll find that the additional strength will make you bigger faster given that you'll be using heavier weights for everything.

The image is half joke half "show PPLers that full body powerlifting routines can be just as effective as PPL"
Don't take it too seriously
If I had to do PPL I'd add DLs on leg day for reasons posted here Then why particularly pause squat in RD? Won't it accumulate fatigue by overloading the bottom position?