Question about fasting

>then why are fatasses always hungry?

Because of insulin and possibly a fucked up leptin response.

Insulin blocks leptin in the brain. It's a way of saying "whoa, hold up in this joint, let's slow down and store this energy we just got from this buffalo we just chased down."

In a normal healthy individual with good insulin response, the sugars will be shunted away and insulin will drop back down to baseline allowing leptin to do it's job.

However in people who have insulin resistance, the insulin never drops to a level where leptin can properly regulate the vagus and CNS targets.

This once of the reasons fasting is incredibly powerful for diabetics and the obese, it forces insulin to stay low for extended periods of time allowing for all that stored energy to come out of cells. Additionally in a fasting state, visceral organ fat is preferentially consumed to body fat which serves to increase insulin sensitivity.

But fasting slows your metabolism and causes muscle wasting, so in the long run it will make fat people fatter...

>But fasting slows your metabolism and causes muscle wasting
gee, I wonder what lifting means.

>lowers metabolism
Patently false. A study of long term fasting showed that during a three day fast participants (both male and female) saw an increase in their REE of 3%. On day 7 the increase in REE peaked at 10% and remained there for the duration of the 14 day study. So not only did their metabolism not slow down, it increased. A person whose normal metabolic rate off 2000, would now be spending 2200 per day

>muscle wasting
Also proven to be false. In a fasting state you see a sustained 300+% increase in HGH generation during the fast. And every study into body comp during a fast shows that lean mass remains static while fat mass drops.

This can happen because autophagy kicks in which deconstructs intracellular machinery releasing the amino acids back into the blood stream, while HGH protects muscle from wasting. In addition to autophagy your cells continue their regular turnover. Any protein your body might need it takes from anything BUT muscle.

This makes evolutionary sense because keeping the fat and wasting muscle won't help you run after that herd of buffalo that just walked by during a famine.

>is eating detrimental to fasting?

Jesus fucking Christ this is the dumbest question on the dumbest board.

Can you have milk with the tea / coffee or does that mcfuck it all up

>slows your metabolism
I'd also like to add...

While fasting does not lower your metabolism, there is a way you can lower it each and every time you try.

Restrict your calories on a long term basis. Every single calorically restrictive diet is proven to result in a lowered REE.

>milk
You can.

But the milk has sugars and protein which will stimulate insulin. If you can't stand black coffee or straight tea then use butter. A little bit goes a long way to smoothing it out. You can also use coconut oil and MCT oil

no milk.

Are you the same user who replied about hgh and saunas a couple weeks ago?

I'm currently doing IF with carb cycling. Lift days I have a 8 hour eating window and eat 250+ grams carbs. Rest days I have a four hour eating window and stay under 20g carbs. I lift every other day.

How could I maximize the benefits of fasting, blood sugar levels, high, etc? I'm think a shorter eating window on lift days or tapering carbs towards the end of the window. I know that many of the benefits of fasting only happen after 18+ hours

Taking several saunas a week for the hgh boost btw

When Lipton is inhibited by insulin however, the regulations switch. The vagus nerve get unregulated stimulating appetite, and the CBS gets downregulated reducing metabolism and activity.

As to HGH. HGH is a counterregulatory hormone in competition to insulin. In a natural healthy individual on a traditional three meal a day diet with healthy insulin response HGH production peaks at around 4 am in the morning when these counterregulatory hormones start the pre-dawn blood sugar spike. HGH production drops after waking but will continue to rise as the fast continues.

Training in this fasted state has a lot of benefits including epigenetic pressure in the muscles towards sourcing energy preferentially from fat. Eating right after the workout the theory goes will take full advantage of the increased growth hormones.

If your insulin response is normal then any 12+ hour of fasting will keep your insulin and blood sugar levels in top condition.

If you're an ex fatty then longer fasting periods will be required until visceral fat is consumed and insulin response normalised. 20 hour windows are where insulin resistant individuals start seeing significant improvements in their markers.

The fatties that come to me for help I put on a similar regimen as you but I restrict foods not macros. I allow them to eat whatever they want, however much they want, as long as it doesn't come in a can, jar, or cardboard box, or is grain. Essentially the perimeter of the store. They have a 4 hour window to eat which is preceded by their workout.

All of the people I've helped lose weight like this have seen immediate improvements in all measures in the first week. And I believe it's the best way to maximize the hormone responses to everything.

And I have seen significant changes in their eating habits and choices. They'll go from "omg I'm so hungry I could eat a horse" to more focused cravings like "I am craving me some chicken and broccoli".

Pasted the wrong snippet at the beginning

>hgh and saunas
That's not me. I've never read any science on it, but I've heard that theory bandied about. My focus is on insulin from trying to figure out why my fat friends all failed at their diets even though I successfully lost 150lbs effortlessly in 4 months when they struggle to lose ten in a year.

>150lbs in 4 months
Holy shit good for you! How did you do that?

Grandpa on his death bed called me a fat piece of shit.
>"b-b-but grandpa I tried losing weight"
>"then stop eating you dunce"
>"b-b-b-but I'll starve"
>"you wanna know about starvation? Then go get captured by some slant eyed japs who don't feed you for 45 days and beat you with their rifles for fucking sport."

stay with this, I do the same. After my non-lifting days you can see veins on my lower abs. Be consistent, patient, stay with how you eat. Dont obsess over it, keep going for a while, observe how your body reacts.
There are some broad principles that many should follow, but there is no one-size fits all regimen. Every one's body is unique, and things that work for some wont for others. Its up to you to find out what suits you best personally

Thanks for the detailed reply. I was a semi fatty 6' 195lbs, but it was all stored on my belly, so I imagine I had quite a bit of visceral fat. Lost quite a bit, but I'm kinda stalled now. Im thinking about cutting rice consumption since I eat a lot on lift days

Nice

Yes absolutely true. Even if you are in a deficit as soon as you eat anything your body wont burn any fat for exactly four days.

If you're stalled then that means you've hit your insulin set weight. The total amount of insulin released during the day has a direct correlation to your stable weight.

If you're at a plateau then the goal you need to primarily focus on lowering your insulin floor, that is, your resting insulin levels.

This is accomplished In one of two ways. One way is through reducing visceral fat through aerobic exercise and dietary carbohydrate restriction. Reductions in visceral fat are directly linked to increased insulin sensitivity which in turn lowers the insulin floor.

The other way is through extending your fasting windows which will have the same net effect on visceral fat.

Whenever a weight loss plateau is hit by the people I'm helping my suggestion is to add in a fasting day.

Wherein I start them eating a 4 hour window every day, normally dinner time, they are then fasting for 20-ish hours each day. However adding in a fasting day They would eat dinner on monday, eat nothing on tuesday, and then resume eating dinners the rest of the week.

This one complete day of fasting per week is usually enough to see the waist measurement start moving again which is an indication of visceral fat reduction.

fatty here. I'm struggling to lose weight something aweful. I'm exhausted at all times and my weight isn't moving despite severely restricting my calories to 1400 and eating 6 small meals a day

How does your insulin theory explain this?

Where does cardio fit into fasting? Is it supposed to be done while fasting or during feeding? Wont your body start consuming muscle if it's done during fasting?

>fatty

I have bad news for you. If you want to stay fat, then you're doing exactly the right thing. The Calories in Calories out model is dead.

If you're fat then you have insulin resistance. Whether you have high blood sugar or not you have insulin resistance. Because your cells are resistant to insulin then your pancreas must excrete more insulin to do the same job. And as I covered above, insulin blocks the leptin from telling your brain "Yo, we got energy dude, lets burn this shit"

How does this play into your situation then. Well first, you're not giving your body a chance to lower it's insulin by eating 6 times a day. Just as insulin starts dropping you're shoving more protein and carbs down your throat raising insulin again.

Secondly, and probably the worst is that you're severely restricting your calories which has been proven time and time again to lower your metabolism. It's a compensatory survival mechanism. Since your brain isn't getting the signal from leptin that you have energy stores abound, the body just lowers it's metabolism to survive the decreased food supply.

The absolute crux of your problem is your insulin. Do absolutely everything you can to lower your insulin levels. The proven ways to do this are carbohydrate restriction, reduced meal counts during the day, extending the daily fast window, and fasting for extended periods of time.

You can eat whatever you want, however much you want and whenever you want as long as you follow and fit in the insulin lowering practices right above and as long as you're eating ONLY from the perimeter of the store and eliminate bread. Meat, dairy, veggies and occasionally fruit.

Do that and the weight will drop.

Please respond I'm thinking of doing the leangains 16 hours of fasting 8 hours feeding.

>Where does cardio fit into fasting? Is it supposed to be done while fasting or during feeding? Wont your body start consuming muscle if it's done during fasting?
Cardio can be done at any time.

In fact there's a large growing body of evidence that shows exercise during fasting increases the epigenetic pressure in lean mass to preferentially use fat as energy in place of glucose. By using more fat for energy during exertion the muscles then spare the extremely limited calories stored in glucose.

In the average person we store around 2,000 calories in glucose. A 180 lb person with 15% body fat will have 10,000 calories of fat, a much much larger fuel reserve.

>Wont your body start consuming muscle if it's done during fasting?
No. Lean mass is conserved in fasting. proven time and time again in numerous studies. high levels of HGH see to this.

The idea that the body "consumes muscle" comes anecdotally from experience reports from people fasting and "losing strength and endurance" during the fasting period.

This loss of performance is easily explained by the poor utilization of available energies. If a person has been a carb eater who eats 3 times a day and never misses a meal then their muscles and systems are not adapted to run on fat. Therefore when they fast their glucose stores go down and they see reduced performance.

By fasting regularly and training in the fasted state you train the muscles to utilize fat more effectively.

Anecdotally I have a gym friend who thinks I'm crazy with this whole fasting thing. He spends more time running on a weekend then I do in a month. Yet, every single time we've done a marathon he "hits the wall" unless he's slugging down carb gels and gatorade, while I just keep running at my aerobic threshold rate and only drinking one of those dinky bottles of water at the halfway point.

Berkhan's program is absolutely an exceptional training program.

I would only qualify that by saying those with metabolic syndrome would be better served by a more intensive insulin control program until their symptomology from the syndrome is cleared.

Leangains, in my opinion, balances insulin control with its ease of implementation. It's not as restrictive as intervention methods and gives some good wiggle room for shit when life happens. And it gives you almost all of the benefits of the more intensive methods.

Gonna piggyback off this thread to ask if intermittent fasting is a meme and if anyone had success with it while training.

IF is not a meme, and has good benefits for athletes and obese alike.

A lot of people say your body also eats muscle when you don't eat so I'm not sure if I should do it.
Training while fasting should prevent that as far as I know though, I'll definetly try it when I cut

Fat user here (176lb 6'3") is fasting for a day or even working up to two days smart to help with weight loss also interested in the fact that it saves some money as well..

i.e. Eat meals 5 days of the week and on the days that I would work out, then on the rest days for the remaining 2 days do fasting.

Also is there any prep I should do before I perform a fast or can I just jump right into it and I know the goal is weight loss but if I'm fasting on the two or even one day will it destroy my gains?

>A lot of people say your body also eats muscle when you don't eat so I'm not sure if I should do it.
A lot of people say a lot of stupid things.

The assertion that one experiences muscle loss when fasting, whether sedentary or active is a fallacy that is proven to be false.

I'll say it again. Every.Single.Fucking.Study on fasting shows that lean mass is preserved. Full stop.

I'm going to do my first cut soon, I want to try IF.
Where can I find a full guide?

saved your responses, will report back in a month. 5'11 235lb

just dont eat for most of the day, its not hard.

If you want more information behind the biochem check out Robert Lustig's speeches on youtube.

So when DOES your body burn muscle? I always thought muscle loss was inevitable when you're losing weight. Is this wrong?

Muscle loss occurs in two situations.

When fasting and your fat stores start to get low (

"Fasting vs. Eating Less: What's the Difference? (Science of Fasting)"

...references your question, might be of interest.
youtube.com/watch?v=APZCfmgzoS0

The most relevant part begins about 3:02, but the whole thing is worth a watch.

One friend I helped three years ago was 450. He was on 2g of metformin per day, sulfonylurias, and 200 units of insulin. He was on the highest dose of blood pressure medications, and a statin for insanely high cholesterol. To top it off, he was on a calorie restrictive diet that was being delivered by a third party and he had no other food in the house (I checked). He was also too fat to walk down the stairs to his car which he hadn't driven in two years and had two flat tires.

When he FINALLY listened to me I put him on a fast with only one cup of bone broth permitted per day. By day three he called me crying in the morning because it was the first time in ten years he woke up without hitting the snooze button 14 times. He went off his insulin, then his metformin, and then his sulfonyluria before the end of the two week fast. by the third week he was getting dizzy from low blood pressure so he stopped taking his blood pressure meds. And after 4 weeks his blood test showed normal cholesterol and high HDL.

His doctor freaked the fuck out.

All the while I was going over every day and having him lift weights. Curls, bench, and whatever calisthenics he could manage.

Once he managed to get down the stairs we went to the gym and started a training program.

By the end of day 100 he had dropped 200 lbs and was making significant gains on ALL of his lifts. He was getting STRONGER despite not having eaten food in 100 days.

While his case is an extreme one it's not an isolated experience I've had. You just don't lose muscle on a fast.

lol i love these fastlets

jesus christ, just moderate yourself, i swear someone will end up dying soon because of that fake as shit progamerjake video

HE WAS STRONGER EVEN THOUGH HE HAD NO PROTEIN TO BUILD NEW MUSCLE WITH OR GLYCOGENS WITH IT WAS MAGIC, IT EVEN CURED HIS AIDS, DOCTOR WAS ALL KISSIN MY FEET AND SHEIT HAHAI WAS LIKE DAB FUCK YEAH

>had no protein to build new muscle
Your body has a shitload of protein sitting around doing nothing, skin, connective tissue, and intracellular organelles.

What do you think happens to the protein that gets broken down in these structures?

it is expelled from your body as urea, why, what do you think happens? also where does the material come for new skin and new connective tissue and new intracellular organelles lol??

dude you can't seriously believe this meme? it's like those people that drink silver and claim it cures all diseases, it's a scam, but this scam manages to fool semi-intelligent people too.

that fat guy has a ton of excess skin. that's all protein. what do you think is gonna happen to it? it will get shrunk in the process.
and IF is not a meme. autofagy researchs recently won nobel prize of medicine.

>expelled as urea

lol wut?

>So a cell goes into autophagy.
>It breaks down an aged and malfunctioning organelle
>the cell spits those amino acids back out into the blood stream
>the body sees stress damage to muscle tissue from a workout
>the body ignores that muscle damage and breaks down the amino acid into urea
>the body pisses the urea out of your dick
>muscle still not repaired

Do you ACTUALLY think that happens? Do you ACTUALLY think the body is stupid enough to dispose of stuff it needs?

So you propose the body is going to piss out the protein, but at the same time it's going to retain higher levels of uric acid which act as a buffer to reactive oxygen species.

It's smart enough to keep one thing, but it just throws the other one right out the window?

Not op but i do IF all year long and basically stay at this.

1.80, 83 kg. I also only lift once a week, i imagine i'd get much more swole if i lifted 3 times a week. I work out 7 days a week, mostly cardio.

Fasting is the way humans are supposed to eat. All animals go through long periods of not eating to eating and stay lean.

mirin bro. good job.

Back shot

Everyone on Veeky Forums should do IF .

Do you fast for a day or until you get hungry?

16/8

Sometimes i do a bit more, sometimes a bit less.

As long as i stay away from high carb shit like oatmeal im fine

I could cut more but i like oreos too much

What is your diet like? Are the foods/macros you have to eat very particular or is it mostly as long as it's not straight junk food it's fine?

great work, sir.
Inspirational.
Myron.

I pretty much eat the same thing everyday.

At 2 pm i eat steamed vegetables(brocolli/zuchini/carrots/cauliflower) with a meat source, either chicken/beef/liver or tuna(i avoid tuna because i believe that canned foods are pure cancer, so i will switch it to bass or mullet)

Then i eat 2 apples and 2 bananas, i usually eat the oreos here because of stress eating, can't help it

Then meal 2 is about at 9-11 pm where i'll eat a salad with cottage cheese+ protein shake + fish oil

I also take bcaas in the morning right after i wake up and in the evening before my workout

In the winter where i eat more i eat a yoghurt with honey and nuts too in the evening

I avoid pasta/bread and pretty much any grain , milk, alcohol(i do drink once or twice a week, nothing much just a beer) and of course i try to cut back on the sweets.

I don't understand why you're so against this shit. Numerous people that it's helped, study upon study that supports it.

Do you honestly this humanity could have gotten this point if it didn't have mechanism that support short term starvation?

Why are you so obsessed with pushing your gay little narrative? Whatever faggot, worked for me.

Because it destroys the narrative that fat people are just slothful gluttonous slobs who are only at fault because they're too lazy or too weak willed to make healthy choices.

Because it destroys the calories in/calories out model and demonstrates that fat acquisition and retention is hormonally driven which impacts further dietary choices.

Because it puts the full understanding of what is really going on out there and detracts from the ability to mock fat fucks.

I don't hate fat people. I hate that they've been lied to about why they're fat, about how their body works. But if some fatass is told this and still stays fat, then they deserve your ridicule.

To be fair most lardasses can lose a ton of weight if they just cut out high sugar/high carb foods from their diets. It's really that simple to look presentable.

Fasting IMO is the next stage after that.

I'm In the last month, I've lost 15 pounds and continued linear progression in my lifts using intermittent fasting. The actual fat loss is probably greater than 15 pounds because I've packed on quite a bit of muscle. IF is the only way for me to lose weight because I'm not always fighting urges to eat food. I eat a bunch during my eating window. Then, I eat nothing until the next day.

>In the morning I take a mug of coffee and add 2tbsp of butter.
fucking disgusting

Fucking delicious.