A gallant hero, a sardonic anti-hero, or an odious monster?

uccla.ca/SOVIET_GENOCIDE_IN_THE_UKRAINE.pdf

blogs.loc.gov/kluge/2016/08/the-kazakh-famine-of-the-1930s/

Scholars don't consider the Holodomor a genocide these days. There is not evidence that policies were intended to kill these peasants, and certainly not on the basis of some of them being Ukraine.

Ukraine didn't even get fucking hit the hardest. A larger percentage of Kazakhs died, but for political reasons Ukrainian leaders call it genocide while Kazakh leaders stay mum.

...

>Scholars don't consider the Holodomor a genocide these days.
weasel words. not an argument

>A larger percentage of Kazakhs died

that was the second link user. Also, saying "hey, they mass murdered a bunch of other people besides the ukranians!" isnt an argument you jackass.

It’s not a genocide it

A) wasn’t intentional

and

B) didn’t target a specific group

It was a massive policy blunder, but not a genocide.

Prison Camp S21 (Cambodia)
Gherla prison (Romania)
Soviet Purges
Katyn Massacre
Hỏa Lò Re-education camp (Hanoi Hilton)
Belene labor camp (Bulgaria)
Camp Boiro (Guinea)
Hoeryong concentration camp (N Korea)
Laogai prison camps (China)
Four Pests Campaign (China)
Hundred Flowers Campaign (China)
Great Leap Forward famine (China)
Kolyma gulag (Russia)
Mass rape of German women
Mass rape of Polish women
Mass rape of czechoslovakian women
Mongolian Stalinist Purge
South Yemen Socialist Economic collapse
Ethiopian Famine
Ukrainian famine (Holodomor)
Socialist Somalia Red Beret Terror Campaign
Socialist Tanzania economic collapse
Socialist Burundi Hutu Genocide
Socialist Eritrea purges
Cuban MUAP concentration camps
Socialist Angola Halloween Massacre
Socialist Congo purges
Basmachi Massacre
Houphanh Samana (re-education) Camps (Laos)
Pul-e-Charkhi Prison (Afghanistan)
Isaaq Genocide in Somalia (they literally refereed to it as "the final solution to the Isaaq problem")
The Kazakh Famines
The Kengir Uprising
NKVD Order 00485 (elimination of Polish minorities)
NKVD Order 00447 (elimination of kulaks and others deemed to be enemies of the state)

I guess the holocaust wasn't a genocide then since it "wasn't intentonal", and didn't target a specific group....

>i-it wasnt intentional and it didnt target a specific group
>le kulaks deserved it!
youre a retard user. You do realize that Raphael Lemkin, the guy who wrote that article I posted, is the guy who created the word 'genocide', right?

repository.un.org/bitstream/handle/11176/246001/A_C.3_58_9-EN.pdf

>In the former Soviet Union millions of men, women and children fell victims
to the cruel actions and policies of the totalitarian regime.

3 million children starve to death under capitalism every year, that alone tops the 100 million (which is a meme figure) every 34 years. That’s only counting deaths from starvation among children, not counting adults or other causes of preventable deaths, as well as shit like the famines that devastated British India, concentration camps in the Boer War, the Indian Wars, the Congo Free State, Suharto massacres, Pinochet’s massacres and rape dungeon, famines under KMT ruled China, etc etc.

In other words “muh gorillions” isn’t an argument since literally every system has huge amounts of blood on its hands.

Except it was both those things.

>In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

>Killing members of the group;
>Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
>Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
>Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

There he goes again!

You can’t say that a system is bad because it causes mass deaths and then ignore it when a different system causes mass deaths.

Raphael Lemkin, the guy who crafted the word genocide and created the parameters of what counts as a genocide, said that the holodomor was a genocide. This was the first article I posted. Here it is again for you.

uccla.ca/SOVIET_GENOCIDE_IN_THE_UKRAINE.pdf

Maybe so, but explain to me how the holodomor fits the UN definition of genocide.

>j-just because muh shitty edgy meme system killed millions of people doesnt mean its bad!
That wasnt even my point you retard, my point was to point out that it did in fact kill all of those people which are going full denierfag on with your stupid ill thought out leftypol image. Youre so stupid and at such a loss that you are now trying to argue that the deaths of millions isnt a valid argument against a certain system.

Read the article written by the guy who set the standards who set the UN definition of genocide you dumb faggot. Here it is again

uccla.ca/SOVIET_GENOCIDE_IN_THE_UKRAINE.pdf

>Except it was both those things.
What do you mean?
How were the Nazis supposed to know that if you don't feed Jews they die? Not even Soviets realized that starvation kills people, as demonstrated by the fact that the holodomor was unintentional.

Furthermor the holocaust clearly didn't target a specific group as a large percentage of gypsies died in addition to the Jews, so obviously the Nazis were not targetting Jews for genocide!

My point is you are literally not applying the same standards of criticism to capitalism as you are to communism. Capitalism is objectively comparable if not more deadly than communism ever was in terms of death tolls.

>dodge dodge dodge
>obfuscate
>but capitalism is bad
Not the guy you’re responding to, but you’re a retard.

You realize that him coming up with definition doesn’t make him an expert on the conditions of the holodomor correct? If it wasn’t engineered, and it wasn’t designed to target a particular group, then it wasn’t genocide. Period.

Stop being retarded, the holodomor was unintentional insofar as the famine itself was unintentional. This is totally different than rounding up Jews and gassing them retard.

>Capitalism is objectively comparable if not more deadly than communism ever was in terms of death tolls.

Capitalism isn't an ideology.
Communism is.

Particularly what relevance does the semantics of genocide vs democide matter. The idea is extremely similar. They are both great evils that once should be held accountable for. Even if the regime had a variety of reasons for failing to interfere, it is silly to act like the debate matters. Just say democide if it makes you feel better.

>Capitalism is objectively comparable if not more deadly than communism ever was in terms of death tolls.
Its not though, youre just a really really stupid kid whos desperately trying to rationalize your pathological edgyness.

Thomas Buergenthal is a survivor of Auschwitz and now serves on the International Court of Justice and he says that the camps in North Korea are worst than what he went through. I guess this stupid asshole never realized that just because a political system is a meat grinder of misery and death doesnt really mean its a bad system because a bajillion people die every second in captialist societies

washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/north-koreas-prisons-are-as-bad-as-nazi-camps-says-judge-who-survived-auschwitz/2017/12/11/7e79beea-ddc4-11e7-b2e9-8c636f076c76_story.html?utm_term=.2ae1b116b9f7

...

I’m not dodging anything. I’m saying that if you are going to judge communism as bad because it killed millions of people then you must apply the same standards of judgement to capitalism and also deem it bad.

If you can differentiate between different ideologies that endorse capitalism (liberalism, fascism, etc) then is it okay to different between ideologies that endorse a socialist economic system? Can I say that Stalinism has a huge death toll but Trotskyism has zero?

>If it wasn’t engineered, and it wasn’t designed to target a particular group,
It was though. Lol keep trying to argue what genocide is against the guy who defined it, even using your own definition with what the UN established as genocide. Stupid denierfags.

the greatest human being and political leader to ever live

/thread

haha epic comrade!

>I guess the holocaust wasn't a genocide then since it "wasn't intentonal", and didn't target a specific group....

So what exactly are your criteria for judging this then? Is it number of people killed or brutality of the killings? Are you including famine or just repression?

they gassed and shot jews tho didn't starve them lol

>So what exactly are your criteria for judging this then?

actual historical and academic criteria and not retarded leftypol memes constructed by friendless edgy retards with daddy issues.

>Stop being retarded, the holodomor was unintentional insofar as the famine itself was unintentional.
Yes, just like the Nazis didn't intend for any Jews to die when they reduced their rations!

>This is totally different than rounding up Jews and gassing them retard.
The majority of rounded up Jews were not gassed, if a minority of people getting gassed is genocide than the holodomor is genocide as the Bolsheviks used gas vans to mass execute Ukrainian kulaks.

And what criteria are those? Seriously I want to know. Because if you count numbers of people killed, and you count famine, then capitalism definitely beats communism. If you don’t count famine then the body count of communism drops immensely.

Everyone needs to realize that these leftypol tankie types are no different from stormfags in their idiocy and they need to be treated just as brutally as you would treat a holocaust denier.

>And what criteria are those?
....Ones established by the International Court of Justice, whos jurist is actually a survivor of the holocaust. As well as Raphael Lemkin, who created the word genocide and established the criteeria still used to define what counts as a genocide, as well as a resolution from the UN, signed by multiple countries, including Russia, which counts the holodomor as a planned action by the soviet government. Try reading the thread.

>If you can differentiate between different ideologies that endorse capitalism (liberalism, fascism, etc) then is it okay to different between ideologies that endorse a socialist economic system?

Capitalism doesn't require "endorsement" it simply exists. You have to go out of your way to "seize the means of production" user.

So yes any ideology that endorses mass robbery is guilty of the deaths that inevitably come along with theft on a societal scale.

Ukrainians were gassed and starved too user.

Can we back to the question? Thanks

>You have to go out of your way to "seize the means of production" user.

And you have to go out of your way to enforce private property rights. Capitalism isn’t natural, it evolved more organically than socialism sure, but it is actively endorsed and maintained politically and ideologically.

I’m not talking about the definition of genocide. I’m talking about the criteria to judge how good or bad a regime or economic system is.

Words can't describe, but way past the odious monster side.

By the ones I just listed. If you think a system constantly resulting in genocide, concentration camps, and starvation isnt a clear sign of its inherent flaws, then that is because youre a horribly brainwashed simpleton.

But capitalism results in all those things on a regular basis user.

I'm a Marxist and I think he was pretty shitty. Authoritarianism is not communism and I blame the USSR for the Americans calling anything to do with communism (which the USSR really wasn't, by definition) terrible.

Even Lenin said what they were doing was state capitalism, but who cares, right? Haha COMMUNISM SUCKS. Disgusting capitalist cucks.

That being said taking a feudal nation to space in forty years was impressive.

No it doesnt. Youre just really really stupid and trying to salvage this after your edgy memes and your excuses for them were BTFO

>Even Lenin said what they were doing was state capitalis
because its still in your camp of ideology you asshole.

What is the ideology of communism, user? Tell me.

Stalinism was a method to become a marxist society (government or not), the brutal repression of masses was integral to that. Class violence is a part of stalinism. So that deaths are a result of Stalinism is unequivocally true.

National Socialism was also based on the enslavement and eradication of people. These ideologies are INSEPARABLE from the idea of violence. Your statement is pure whataboutism. The choice isn't between Suharo or Stalin.

Your argument is that even if the connection between Capitalism and mass killings isn't clear, that they still happen is reason enough for disavowing capitalism. Even IF this were the case, this doesn't justify the Nazis or Stalinism. There are clearly more than 2 ideologies.

Finally, I think it is ridiculous that capitalism is directly responsible for the regimes of dictators. Plenty of capitalists believe the government should intervene on behalf of foreign powers. Secondly, you can also maintain that a capitalist could believe that the states limit corporate/private power to act/trade with foreign countries. If trotskyism isnt stalinism, then it isn't stalinism. It different idea. If I add the idea to mass killing to an ideology, it is a different ideology, for example.

state owning everything. inb4 your bullshit meme arguments against this when thats what it actually is. Its also painfully obvious from you "that wasnt REAL communism" faggots that you secretly admire them to some degree anyway.

UN statistics say that 3 million children die every year from malnutrition, despite the resources existing to end extreme poverty multiple times over. With this being the case, these deaths are a direct result of capitalist mechanisms of distribution. This is again ignoring other preventable poverty related deaths, as well as deaths resulting from oppression under authoritarian capitalist regimes. If you include these then capitalism clearly approaches the death toll of communism, in fact the number of children dead from starvation since the 70s (after all major socialist famines had concluded) at the current rate would be greater than even the largest estimates for all the deaths in the entire history of communism.

That isn't communism. Communism is a stateless and classless society. Please, if you're going to label something at least label it correctly. I'm sorry if the "not real communism" is correct. It'd be helpful if you didn't reference memes as well.

Fair enough, but I’m not a Stalinist. I’m just mocking people who treat communism as a monolith and cry about all the deaths it caused while refusing to hold capitalism to the standard.

He saved his people from Nazi extermination and modernized it. Surely that must count for something?

>UN statistics say that 3 million children die every year from malnutrition
yeah, in third world shitholes, not in America or western europe or canada you dumbass. This whataboutism is only digging your hole further. Just give up and realize communism is fucking retarded, just like you
data.unicef.org/topic/nutrition/malnutrition/

Yes

>c-communism is stateless!
What did I tell you about not giving me any bullshit meme arguments user? Thats the GOAL of communism, but every time this ideology has been implemented, it has resulted in bloody failure. That isnt because those werent real communist societies, its because communism is a flawed, horrible, and pathologically brutal system.

>He saved his people from Nazi extermination
After he embolden the nazis in the first place. They were getting most of their oil from the soviet union

Out to kill Ukrainians but forgot to kill this guy.

Okay, user. Okay. Keep thinking that.

He was the reason Operation Barbarossa was so successful in the first place.

wow, you really showed me!

>third world shitholes

Which most communist countries were long prior to their adopting socialism.

Not to mention that this doesn’t excuse the deaths of the people dying under capitalism. I already said that the resources to solve this problem exist in abundance, but people not having access to them, and dying as a result, is a direct result of the way capitalism distributes these resources via market mechanisms.

Not him but he asked you to give him a definition of what communism was, and you have him an incorrect one. You don’t get to act smart now.

If you want to talk about socialism, then your definition is still retarded, but slightly less so.

>and you have him an incorrect one.
No I didnt. Communism is the state owning everything. The goal of this is to one day lead to a stateless society (which will never ever happen)

This is just some bullshit meme you guys try to use in the hopes no one has any clue what you are talking about.

Didn't see what you replied too. Yeah I agree it conflates Stalinism with National Socialism which is fucking stupid.

Except the introduction of anti-communist regimes in Indonesia (probably) caused over a million deaths. Except we're ignoring the Philippines, ignoring Hawaii, ignoring the Dominican republic. All on behalf of capitalist regimes to install capitalist regimes.

You cant include the implementation for some ideologies and not for others. Its a stupid argument.

hey retard, your own exampled of kids who die of malnurishment all occur in third world socialist shitholes. How fucking stupid are you? Has your brain atrophied this badly after being in your echo chamber for too long?

>No I didnt. Communism is the state owning everything.

No it isn’t, no socialist state ever called itself communist. They called themselves socialist, but even then “the state owning everything” is a piss poor definition because socialism can be expressed in state centred as well as not state centred mechanisms. State syndicalism, anarchism, and market socialism are all formed of socialism where the state does not own everything. Even in the USSR the state didn’t own everything, there was personal property as well as individual and cooperative ownership of enterprises.

>Communism is the state owning everything

Oh my. It's pointless to argue with you when you're so incredibly wrong about something you've already been told is wrong yet you persist.

There are no socialist countries in Africa, they all have private ownership of the means of production, markets as their primary distribution mechanism, wage labour, and commodity production. Learn what words mean before you use them.

>Its a stupid argument.
exactly, which is why your false equivalency makes no sense and has literally nothing at all to do with the point I was making, which is what communism is and what its goal is. Communist will always claim that since it didnt accomplish its goal, then it wasnt real communism. This is idiotic damage control shilling and its painfully obvious to everyone else.

Somalia was under a marxist-leninist government until 30 years ago. Of course you wouldnt know this. Youre blaming fucking capitalism for not cleaning up the mess in somalia quick enough? lol

There is no false equivalency. Communists killed people to implement their ideology, and so it capitalists. They are literally the exact same thing.

It’s not 30 years ago senpai, it’s now.

>but even then “the state owning everything” is a piss poor definition
no it isnt. Youre just rattling off orwellian dogshit. Its the state owning everything and a centrally controlled economy with a central bank. We all know it.

>Youre blaming fucking capitalism for not cleaning up the mess in somalia quick enough? lol
what part of this did you not understand? Back to the point before you moved the goalpost after it got BTFO, all the worst countries with horrible malnourished problems are all former socialist third world shit holes, which has literally nothing to do with capitalism. in fact, poor children are obesse in capitalist countries.

Oh okay I’ll go tell Rosa Luxemburg, Peter Kropotkin, Murray Bookchin, Pierre Joseph Proudhon, Mikhail Bakunin, Daniel DeLeon, and Josep Tito that their ideas don’t exist.

The point we were discussing was that communism is the state owning everything. That was the point I clearly explained which you still seem not to get. And yeah, its a false equivalency since communism will ALWAYS ALWAYS have their camps and genocides and people to kill, while the examples you mentioned were reactions to communism. In other words, a capitalist system can be implemented without despotism, while it is intrinsic to the implementation of communism.

Actually in poor countries socialism did an objectively better job of feeding people than capitalism did.

articles.latimes.com/1986-06-07/local/me-10010_1_socialist-countries

>People who live in socialist countries enjoy a higher level of health, education and overall physical quality of life than do residents of capitalist countries with similar economic development, according to a study co-authored by UC Irvine and and Cal State Long Beach professors.

>Socialist countries out-performed capitalist countries in nearly every area, according to the study by Howard Waitzkin, UCI professor of medicine and social sciences, and Shirley Cereseto, professor emeritus of sociology at Cal State Long Beach. The study, which looked at infant and child death rates, life expectancy, the availability of doctors and nurses, nutrition, literacy and other educational factors, is in the current issue of the American Journal of Public Health.

Also there’s the fact that the resources to “clean the mess up” as you put it exist, and problems like malnourishment could be solved relatively easily if the resources were devoted to this problem. We produce more than enough food to feed the entire world, meaning that any deaths from starvation are the result of our flawed distribution systems.

>mfw the soviets said they achieved true socialist economy through decentralized toilers deputies and it turned out to be the easiest scam to sell people and kill over 40 million people with
>getting baited by obvious propaganda but buying it anyways because the feels fill the void left after the MSM and education system deconstructed any real sense of identity you had handed to you by your forebears

>Actually in poor countries socialism did an objectively better job of feeding people than capitalism did.
And now we get to bring the thread back around full circle after the leftypol brigade desperatly tried to change the direction of the conversation after all the genocides and mass murder excuses they say got BTFO

uccla.ca/SOVIET_GENOCIDE_IN_THE_UKRAINE.pdf

>comparing 90 IQ nations that are under-performing to 70 IQ nations that are over-performing
Interdasting.

>decentralized toilers

They literally never said this. Centralization of the state and economy was always explicitly a part of the Leninist approach to socialism.

A central bank is part of Marxist ideas in general, not just Lenin. Centralization IS communism

They never said they had toilers deputies as the mechanic of direct proletariat control?
That's right, it's in Ch2 of the communist manifesto, the list at the end of ten things.

Okay so let me explain to you what happened here.

>socialism starved people!
I pointed out that equivalent or greater numbers of people starve under capitalism, and supported this with UN stats.
>those are all in ex-socialist countries
I posted an article on a study that shows that socialist countries actually preform better in meeting the basic needs of their people when compared to capitalist countries or similar income levels. To which you responded
>socialism starves people

I hope you realize how stupid you are.

>tfw when you amnesty thieves because they are socially friendly elements
>tfw you slap another 25 years of hard labour on scummy political enemies of the people

The communist manifesto was a pamphlet written in 1848 about the immediate short term goals of German communists at the time. It’s not a bible for what communism is or isn’t.

Nice fiction you have in your mind there. What really happaned was you started off this thread with your edgy leftypol memes about how stalin dindu nuffin, then you got BTFO and have been on the defensive ever since. Like I said earlier, youre a really really stupid person.

>just because marx said that doesnt mean he really meant it!
this is just getting sad at this point