Question to guys who've done roids: Is it legitimately a waste to be a natural lifter?

what's the joke in this pic?

Don't kid yourself, strength gains are from consistent long-term tissue building and gradually applying stress to the tendons and ligaments so they don't rupture. You don't build any quality mass on roids. Look at the people at your gym who are on them. They're all disgusting as fuck. bloated as shit. Then once you're off them, what happens? you'll probably lose all your gains. There's a reason why the classical greek statue physique is so rare and sought after, it's developed through pure strength and not doing 9*9 baby goat shoulder raises.

This is a very unflattering photograph and the person seems quite undeservingly braggadocios.

If you just want to get into athletic shape and have some visible abs - you don't need roids for that. Just eat more, eat healthy, burn that fat out and that's it.

If all you REALLY want is muscular wide chest, wide back, huge legs and arms - you are wasting your time by not using roids.

You don't build any quality mass on roids
brainlet detected

Go to the reddit sub for steroids and look at their flowchart

Aside from his somehow weak arms, that dude would jooicy if he lost the fat

On my first cycle. I added almost a plate to all my lifts in 10 weeks. I still have 4 weeks left on my cycle. What do you think? It feels amazing. In fact, I don't want it to end. I hear PCT is terrible and you lose a lot, but fuck it. You only live once and I wanted to do a cycle just to see how it is and what the fuss is about. My plan is to focus back on my cardio and get cut anyways, so I'm not worried about it. Lifting in general seems to be a waste honestly. As long as you can do 1/2/3/4 all 5x5, then you're fucking leagues beyond any normie out there.

factually incorrect. Please refrain from spreading your personal opinions as fact

This, you can tell someone is on roids instantly.

He forgot to put a coma and a question mark OP IS A FAG.

hurrr durrr we did a DEXA and it came up as FFM even thought it could have been water retention. You don't understand the difference between muscle volume and actual tissue. Like when you grow older from being a baby you will see what I mean when you have a physique when you wake up without a pump and lighting.

If you think charlie shitstain with the bacne that rivals jupiter looks like a greek statue then you're a fucking nutjob.

>hurr he's bulking brah, looks bloated

nah, when you have a physique you will understand. Until then, continue being DyeL.

he said 'if'

Natty lifting tends to become a waste after you've experienced roids. That's the problem, it really is hard to go back and that's coming from personal experience.

The best analogy I can give for natural vs enhanced is that enhanced lifting is what normies and people who have never lifted before think that lifting is like. Which is not surprising considering the number of fake natty fitness personalities who are on gear and basically destroy any sort of reasonable expectations.

Natural lifting isn't a waste, but after noobgains are totally milked out the input vs reward starts to get fucking insane. Months of focused training and dieting might net you a few kgs on your lifts and make almost no visual measurable difference in your physique. It's fucking hard.

I hopped on way to early, couldn't even bench 2pl8, and when you start that early it's basically just a fast forward button rather than a pathway to something that was otherwise unachievable. It was lazy on my part, no way around it. What I've achieved is WELL within the realms of a patient natty, just not in the same time period:

Yeah now read the rest of the sentence you fucking mongoloid and you'll see that he finished it

this is basically the natty cuck equivilent of a mum saying that "protein shakes don't build real muscle dear"

muh quality mass
muh bloat

I'm not saying that most brolifting roiders don't look like bloated shit because they do, but that's a function of their own stupidity it isn't an inherent fact of life for responsible educated steroid users.

Agreed here. Could barely squat 3pl8 for reps before I hopped on. I feel the same.

Does PCT really kill all your gains after a cycle? Is cutting after bulking and cycling recommended

Post your physique. I'm not saying the wisdom I am spitting is conventional or well-known. I think you can only know it if you trained natty for several years and have developed the kind of physique that discipline offers you.

Roiding is inherently unhealthy and must be maintained in order to keep the muscle.

If you manage the cycles well then the negative side effects will be minimised but there's always risk. It can lead to enlarged heart and eventually can damage your body's natural ability to produce testosterone.

I don't disagree with roiding, but I personally am not up for the possible side effects.

It literally accelerates your growth, sure there are steroids that make you blow up due to water retention, but a normal cycle will have you grow real muscle mass, just like a natty would if he trained long enough.

You'll also lose some water and glycogen in the muscles when you come off, but again there is still actual "meat" gained.

I'm natty.

sry to ask, but google couldn't help me and I am not a native english speaker, how much is 2pl8 in kilo, or lbs? thank you internet :)

100kg

>girls don't care about hair bro
>yeah you could totally beat me up in a fight
>yeah man, you're strong, man

It might, it might not. I'm not claiming to be an expert on roids. I've never touched them and I am only going by my own experiences and what I've observed in the gym. I can say that body mass is indeed dependent on testosterone levels so when that goes down so does the LBM. Look at all the ex-bodybuilders. Even yates looks dyel.

You're really fucking yourself if you roid, at least within the first 8-10 years of lifting.

He looks like a bro though. I think people assume too quickly that these supermodels have shit personalities

Just read into how your body actually works before you spout stupid shit like this.

2pl8 just means two plates on either side. Plates are usually 20kg, and the bar is normally 20kg, so it would be 100kg

yep, just post pics from ya putin reaction gifs in ya basement. You know everything, much expert. I don't think you are that discrete with the broad quality of physiques that exist. I bet you're someone who makes a big argument on isertions. Dman, my bicep tendon is a little long, will never make it.jpg.

I think until you see it you don't understand it. Enjoy your dyel physique and spend 45 minutes working on a pump because you're insecure.

you are retarded, please look into topics before weighing in on them

lots of roiders who are trying to defend their shit physique. Don't worry, once I cut I'll like the way I look!

>Does PCT really kill all your gains after a cycle? Is cutting after bulking and cycling recommended

Will lose some strength and you'll look smaller due due glycogen leaving, but you'll maintain the vast majority. Recovery is genetic.

>Post your physique. I'm not saying the wisdom I am spitting is conventional or well-known. I think you can only know it if you trained natty for several years and have developed the kind of physique that discipline offers you.

I'm 6'1 @ 95kg, 14% bf*. My physique is shit, I've been lifting for 8 months, like I said. You'll struggle to find a lean guy running test with his e2 under control that looks like a bloatlord.

"greek statues",
"physique that discipline offers you",
"you don't build any quality mass on roids".

Please post what a quality, non roided 'greek' physique looks like. I've posted what a high quality roid physique looks like.

>I can say that body mass is indeed dependent on testosterone levels so when that goes down so does the LBM. Look at all the ex-bodybuilders. Even yates looks dyel.

Dorian Yates is like 55 and is still taking testosterone, he also has multiple children and looks excellent and very muscular compared to the average man of his age, despite being involved in one of the most health damaging activities ever.

I don't even roid, I just have a basic grasp of human physiology.

I respect both parties, but I don't respect people who know nothing and spout garbage as fact.

>I'm 6'1 @ 95kg, 14% bf*. My physique

yet likes to weigh in like he's been in the game for decades.

just look at someone like the buff dudes or jeff seid (questionable). There are even some roiders that have originally had a great natty physique and stuffed it up by roiding. There's a sharpness to the muscles, it doesn't rely on a fill look which is what roids do. Fill your body up with shit and literally adds nothing aesthetic to your body. If you looked good and are on roids, it's because you looked good before roids.

if you have superior genetics

>such as myself
>ie, 6'5" broad shoulders, tiny waist

I am an extreme example so use your own judgement but as my natty limit I supermog everyone I come across, and not even joking (you have to remember lots of ppl who don't look like they roid do) 99% of all roiders 2, there is legit 1 person I have ever met who mogged me in size and strength (he was 5'7" and a legit elite class semi-famous powerlifter)

Well I have a degree in sport science and have been training for six years. It's great to just deflate someone and not even offer a counter-argument to make yourself feel like more of an expert. But I am absolutely willing for someone to take me down, please, I am a critical thinker and a positivist. There's no ego here. Show me a before and after picture of someone who did roids that looked Dyel that now looks good. I'm inclined to believe that it's just a mental illness these days, especially for recreational use. Prove me wrong, please.

>jeff seid (questionable)
Stopped reading there

oh cool you're very dumb, both of those people are BLATANTLY roiding you goof.

we're done

>mfw roidcuck who has been lifting for 8 months knows more than mr DEDICASHUN AND DISCIPLINE

>and the bar

oh boy, here we got the "bigger than me" "must be roiding" cucks. When you really see what you can do these days naturally with the quality of literature available then you will start to shift your attitude to what is attainable natty.

Reminder that greek statues are anatomically impossible but made to look real, so this faggot thinks you can achieve a literal fantasy body completely naturally.

so I guess men don't have more muscle than women, huh guys? Because testosterone doesn't add muscle right guys? Because androgen receptors does't exist right guys? Because protein synthesis doesn't exist right guys? Because nitrogen retention doesn't exist, right guys? Because nandrolone doesn't increase body mass in wasted HIV patients right guys? Because all research on androgens in humans never happened right guys? Because basic medical knowledge acquirable through a biology 101 class is fake right guys?

Anyone got the image that shows lbs of lean mass gained without exercise and with exercise, shown for both natties and people on test?

IIRC you put on basically the same muscle as a training natty if you just inject and then do nothing. If you train its like 4 times the amount?

does Gandy roid?

>quality of literature
HUUUURRRRR lift and count macros, I'm big like seid. You are fucking delusional faggot.

Those that pin and do nothing put on even more than those that are natty+lift
And by a huge amount

man, im the 6'1, 95kg, 5432 guy from before but im starting to think your just a decent troll who got me and a bunch of other people.

either troll or severe handicap. Either way you can tell he doesn't lift

You're agreeing with me that testosterone is the critical factor to performance and LBM? There's a key here, normal levels, and elevated levels. HIV patients? Low test. Those other words you mentioned. How do they relate? Do people plan on hopping on test for 4-5 years straight and that's their "cycle"? I'm not arguing the function of testosterone. You are artificially elevating your testosterone for a small period of time, and then it goes away. Why do you think yates is on test? It's because he's old, because that's a naturally occurring process of aging is decreased test. Rather than sarcasm and spouting words, why don't you explain to me the "science" behind roids and why they contribute to LBM gains the same way that natty lifting does. My argument stands as this, the LBM gains that you get on roids is not the same composition of LBM you get training natty. Even if you control for mass, once you're off cycle, you lose most of it, and a lot of it is water. That's my argument. I want to see someone who looks DYEL, go through a cycle and looks like say, tiny trip. There's a good natty physique albeit small.

derailed the thread pretty powerfully.

I'm going to go ahead and say that natty strength training isn't a waste of time and is actually really rewarding, but natty BBing is a bit of a joke.

I agree that it is inherently unhealthy, but you don't necessarily need to stay cruising to maintain the muscle. Unless you're a total mass monster it's actually to your benefit. You produce new muscle cells that you can keep once off a dose.

That said, it will take more effort to maintain than if cruising on test, but even off test you have the benefit of momentum making it easier.

well here's six years of natty lifting. Not that great but I lost 65KG of fat. 6'1 97KG.

Homie, steroids have a permanent POSTIVE effect on your muscles. If you juice once you will forever be a cut above natty so long as you continue to lift. I'm not exactly sure what it is but your muscles develope some enzyme or something that permanently remain in your muscle tissue. I never juiced before but the people iv talked to who have done it once in their life are always significantly more ascetic at the least

Do you have any non-pumped, non instagram filtered photos?

Looking good as a natty with a pump and gym lighting isn't hard. It's a male fat chick selfie.

I'm skeptical that you weigh 97kg.

There's always a price to pay.

You faggots really need to learn how to read. He did finish his sentence he just didn't use any commas and he forgot to end with a question mark. He's shit at grammars but you two are still shit at reading.

sure, here's me bulked a little. Roast away, I'm looking for a discussion, not a "you're a retard" "I don't believe you" bullshit spiel.

Then why even lift at all?

Here's a fun little, game, spot the roiders. I hope people can start to see the difference. You can't just go and order whatevethefuck off of some dark net market and expect to look good. It's just not on the cards, it's just hard work and training for strength. Sorry roiders.

Read it REALLY SLOWLY and you might find that you mixed up the order of "he" and "was"

Athlean may have done it ONCE IN THE PAST but he definitely does not rood currently

You won't keep any if your natural test is shut down. It's a roll of the dice, pure genetic lottery as to whether your testicles will ever work again. Also, psychologically you will be depressed as fuck with natty shit gains after your cycle, only increases your chances of never coming off.

Also severe acne is pretty horrible no matter how large you are.
>inb4 Accutane
Acne scars are not aestheic either. Neither is committing suicide from depression.

>ITT DYEL's that don't pin

Yep, I agree and he has the physique that looks natty. If you train for more than 5-8 years you can get to the buff dudes physique, I have experienced it personally and have seen it in others. So many DYELS find comfort in the fact that they don't have to try if they say any ideal is attained unnaturally. Guy in the red shirt roids, the two fat tattooed dudes roid. Just look at their insertions, it's bloated. Their triceps blow up all the way around their rear delt. It's just water retention, it looks gross and it's shit. Red shirt looks shit, he would look so much better without juice as he has somewhat of a baseline physique.

Your wrong. If you have not reach your physical natural limitations, roids WILL push you to it and you will likely hover near your max natty strength so long as you put in the work. Steroids are safe if you do it correctly and responsibly. Doing one cycle a year won't kill you, in fact if your over 35 it's probably more beneficial so long as you keep your eyes open for side effects and get routine blood work done.

Buff dudes FFMI's are higher than Arnie at his prime
You fucking dolt

dude you can tell you have put work in to a physique you can be proud of, but don't delude yourself that you are seid level. Sure maybe in 10 years of bulk and cut, but you're in your 30s by then.

Never claimed that I was in anybody's level. I just have A physique that illustrates the effort natty lifting produces. There is no delusion here and if there is please elucidate anything that I may be making errors on. The fact is fat free mass is mass that is not fat. I drank a gallon of water and that's fat free mass, it doesn't mean anything.

Help me understand this a little more. How much strength is retained after a cycle?

can someone show me some before and after pics?

>distended gut despite with visible abs

thats not you faggot

>This pathetic attempt at a "discussion"
Man Veeky Forums really went off the deep end huh

I'm just not sure I want to commit to something that can cause skin problems, hormone problems, hair loss etc, not to mention all the money you have to spend. Plus, I'd probably find it extremely hard to stop roiding once I'd started.

I think huge muscles in a young man looks shit anyway. Once you're in your 30s, having a Heracles body looks cool. Before that brad pitt in fight club is optimal for aesthetics and girls

ok.jpg

I get my views on roids are radical to what PLG or whatever the fuck is on here state. I'm all for doing what you do to your own body but education is extremely important. Science aims to find the most objective truth to what is happening when people put this in their bodies for a certain amount of time and then stop it. You have to be careful when you hear people on roids tell you the benefits because there is a lot of cognitive dissonance. Statistics and more valid and reliable measures eliminate human error so we can understand what happens. From a purely qualitative observation I have yet to see people accrue a sustainable physique from steroids without other noise occurring such as a pr-established physique. In favour of roids, i am inclined to agree the dangerous aspects are grossly emphasised and have become a common heuristic, but the fact is they don't do much in the way of making you look that great. If they did then there would be a lot of top-notch physiques everywhere, there isn't.

Never said they weren't relatively safe, my point is that you're going to have to deal with hormone problems for the rest of your life.
Also, there isn't like a magical post card you get when you're at your natty limit. A dyel cycling will never know when that limit is until they stop and have to lose the muscle. Coming off cyle is usually accompanied by test shutdown until PCT can (hopefully) get your natural going again. The reality is that your body will never make as much testosterone as it once did and youre natty limit will be lowered.

You want to keep those gains, you've got to get them the hard way: natty as the day you were born.

I've got nothing against TRT though (I will be taking advantage of that once my natural test plummets around 40) because you're doing that with the expectation that you cannot come off.

You don't know what you're talking about.
Cycling is based on keeping mass after you're on.
Please shut the fuck up about things you're clueless about.

Spot the roider lol

Also
> dark net market
Yeah you don't know shit

Finally, someone with some frickin' common sense.

Natty truly is the way. I wish people saw lifting as an intrinsic benefit.

but the fact is they don't do much in the way of making you look that great. If they did then there would be a lot of top-notch physiques everywhere, there isn't.
Retarded. There are top notch physiques everywhere. The main reason for lack of Olympia proportions is genetics.

>Cycling is based on keeping mass after you're on
Whats your point, Mr. Steroid expert?

Are you really unironically this stupid?

The problem is that you are not very articulate, my friend.

Ahh I see your upset I used the word "cycle" instead of "blast" or something else. Good on you to catch that fatal error, only an experienced steroid user would spot something like that.

>Someone disagreed with me so I'm feigning incredulity because "wow just wow" is a thuper funny and edgy response in 2017

Look at Rock's bideltoid width in that pic. He's a genetic freak.

Whats a nigger gon' do if he's Samoan?

Very interesting take...I'm inclined to agree

>and NO preaching from people who is against roids i dont want to hear about your shit

it sounds like you've already made up your mind about roids and just want people here to validate it

That's not even what we were discussing.

I agree with you, most people without a training base of knowledge and experience will end up looking like shit.
I even agree that it's a mental illness for some.

My point from the start was roiding at any stage will give you permanent muscle gains.

>roiding at any stage will give you permanent muscle gains.

That's so wrong It's fucking retarded.
Did you forget to add a "not" in there or something?

Tell me about the mechanism through which muscles grow.