How close is paleo-libertarianism and anarcho-capitalism to fascism? I don't think most of the "remove leftists" memes as throwing communists out of helicopters come from an informed reading of Hoppe, but I've certainly noticed that these people have a tendency to gleefully lump tepid liberal-leftists under the rubric of "communism" and a vague threat of a gulags under a brutal state (therefore extra-judicial murder becomes "legitimately" actionable.)
To me, even with the complete disavowal of so called positive-rights & freedom that it would be unconscionable for advocates of negative freedom to ally themselves with fascists, but I suspect there's a lot more to these ideas that I am not yet aware of.
It's not close. Paleo-libertarianism and most anarchy-capitalists don't support throwing commies out of helicopters unless the commies get violent first. Other than upsetting commies libertarianism isn't similar to fascism at all, as libertarianism seeks economic and personal freedom while fascism seeks state control over economic and personal life.
There is an undeniable fascist presence in what you may call vulgar libertarian circles and a push towards entryism "unite the right" movements. I do not spend a lot of time in "new-right" circles so I want to get as much perspective from libertarian-right folk as I can.
Isaiah Lewis
They are different in the abstract but they are all so out of whack with reality in practice they are nought but spooks, pure ideology. Communism included.
Daniel Garcia
Libertarians are individualist and anti-authoritarian, which is the polar opposite of fascists/collectivists
Isaiah Peterson
As close as anarcho-communism to communism.
One is a fantasy version of the other.
William Bell
>There is an undeniable fascist presence in what you may call vulgar libertarian circles and a push towards entryism "unite the right" movements For every example of some fascist retard claiming that libertarians need to unite with them there's two examples of libertarians and fascists butting heads and claiming the other is left-wing or some shit. Fascism and libertarianism are not comparable in any way other than their shared hatred of communists, and any attempt to bridge their differences inevitably results in them coming into conflict with each other.
John Lee
Just for clarity's sake, the last thing I want from any exchange on this thread is for anyone to think I'm claiming libertarians are culpable in the rise of fascism. I am as miffed as anyone on the libertarian-right when it comes to self-professed libertarians or an-caps joining with fascists to "survive" and magically suspending their liberal tendencies.
Fascists are notoriously bad at sharing power (spoiler) and historically when they rise to power, they tend to dismantle (at best) their populist grass roots auxiliaries or actively purge them, they share this tendency with communists (which always is able to theoretically disclaim this praxis of brutal suppression & creations of new classes of people after their revolutions succeed.)
Mason Murphy
/thread
Asher Walker
Libertarians and Ancaps are just fascists who haven't realized >the state is against them >the media is against them >one cannot have freedom in a racially mixed society >they will never achieve their goals without banding together as a collective that is unafraid to assert state power
Hunter Cox
I figured they're both "hierarchs": they feel the need for there to be an established hierarchy with the strong/clever on top and the "plebs" at the bottom. Fascists want to do it by force and libertarians through the free market. Now, I don't think this is what libertarian/ancap theory states, but in practice those who follow it seem to want society ordered by the invisible hand until the worthy rule it.
Jason Peterson
That's my biggest issue with both. There is an appeal to "natural law" that exists in both that is in its own way actually anti-political and will always appeal to most people. I actually consider an-caps and fascists to be a product of liberalism & romanticism. They do radically differ in how they would actually run things and voluntary communes/syndicates could exist provided they could produce capital for land-owners.
They are different enough that I would happily join arms with an-caps and libertarians if it meant beating back a fascist revolution.
Brandon Ross
not everyone is an easily swayed reactionary
Oliver Reed
>the state is against them Libertarians HAVE realized that user, otherwise they wouldn't be fucking libertarians.
Lincoln Long
Good luck ever achieving freedom with open borders and non whites voting for big government and more immigration.
Anthony Clark
Still more likely to achieve freedom that way than trying to achieve freedom by...taking away freedom.
Isaiah Russell
I'd rather live in Huey Long's America 2bh
Jaxson Ward
>The state is against them >America is an Ancap paradise >Communism has fallen >China is only nominally communist >One of the best periods of Economic prosperity for the upper class in decades if not centuries >Capitalists basically in full control of most world governments
Truly, Libertarians and Fascists are oppressed
Ayden Williams
We need to all set our differences aside and get rid of lolberts. This chart is horrific.
Elijah Harris
>throwing communists out of helicopters come from an informed reading of Hoppe Well no fucking shit, they are only attracted to it since it is a meme
Brandon Howard
There are certainly some libertarians who subscribe to that kind of social darwinism, but there are others who would like to see power, both political but also economic, distributed as widely as possible.
Problem with talking about libertarianism is that its a pretty big tent outside the pure academic variety, and even then there are big divisions between those who believe in natural rights and those who just think its the most effective system.
Alexander Martinez
>Still more likely to
No, you are not. The left laughs as they import more and more immigrants who will vote for big government and gibs by the bus-load. Liberty and Freedom ONLY exists in white societies. You can stand up and reclaim it, or you can stand by your political absolutism and get bred out of existence (along with any chance at liberty). Fascism is not the best system all the time, but it is the best when your nation has been infiltrated by international capitalists who seek to destroy and enslave you. Something to think about.
Liam Miller
Using fascism to fight communism can be appropriate, sometimes. It's a powerful tool, like bringing a gun to a gun-fight. Anything less is like bringing a knife.
Sebastian Robinson
>Liberty and Freedom ONLY exists in white societies And so clearly the best solution is to take away all those liberties and freedoms through a totalitarian government that curbs civil rights...
I think I'll pass.
Luis Wilson
Then you will fail and your lineage will not be free.
Jaxson White
>are people who believe the state should leave everyone alone, close to people who think the state should control what people do?
Jose Allen
Except fascism and communism both lost to liberalism, so really the guy with the gun here are the liberals and the commies and fascists are the poor saps stuck with knives.
Landon Johnson
I'll take freedom in a mixed nation over slavery in a white nation any day.
Jonathan Jones
>both lost to liberalism
That's why the Marxists are illegally importing foreigners into white nations to secure votes and political power. That's why they have infiltrated academia and the media and have the power to get your fired/expelled, if you deviate from their norms.
Jose Perry
Good luck with that. You don't actually want Libertarianism because, if you actually wanted it, you would accept what needs to be done to attain it. Instead, you will back down and accept your Marxist overlords because you do not dare to do what needs to be done.
Logan Jackson
>Yuri Bezmenov >literally means George Nameless I kinda have a hard time believing this was a real name
>"You don't actually want Libertarianism because, if you actually wanted it, you would accept what needs to be done to attain it" >ie if you wanted to be free you would accept slavery The problem with you fascists is that you cannot even conceive of a freedom that isn't granted to you by the state. Okay, so the government imports non-whites and they vote for authoritarianism, the same authoritarianism that you advocate for anyways. So what? They're non-whites user, they can't enforce authoritarianism worth a damn. Somalia has a shit ton of rules, but without the power to enforce them, it is lawless. And so it would be in your vision of the future, a world where the government is, on paper, all manner of totalitarian and overreaching, yet in reality they can't do a damn thing.
Chase Brown
Nigger I know who he is. I'm just saying the name sounds silly and not like a real name.
Isaac Harris
Yeah because if there's one thing Marxists love it's maintaining the liberal status quo.
Nicholas Roberts
I fundamentally disagree. The state is an extremely powerful tool, and it can be used to reclaim your freedoms, surprisingly. I will say that you have nice taste in guns.
Juan Thomas
>taking memes this seriously it depends on the type of fascism, but that said, not-at-all. hoppean libertarian comes from the realization that a libertarian society cannot exist without a western god-fearing society. and nihilistic atheists or communists don't serve their interests in the slightest. the best call to action is convert them, or get rid of them them.
they look to fascist ideals and aesthetics because western chauvinism was at the core of the ideology.
David Brown
probably wasn't his real name. I think he was in hiding a while, until after the soviet union collapsed
Jeremiah Parker
Good post
Evan Reyes
>fascism favours the free market and the existence of a plutocratic elite Are you an idiot?
Tyler Rodriguez
>freedom in a mixed nation Doesn't exist. A rise in immigration correlates with the suppression of rights.
Dylan Johnson
It can be used to reclaim freedoms theoretically, but it very rarely is. The best and most consistent way to secure your freedom is through your own independent actions, which is most easily done under a weak state, whether it is weak through Constitutional limitations and checks and balances, or weak through chaos and corruption.
Jeremiah Adams
The only thing that unite different ethnicities/racial groups is a common held belief in certain values, ethics and morals. AKA a religion.
The U.S. was founded on biblical principles, not on skin color. But with the rise of identity politics and tribalism (SJWs and alt-right) everyone suddenly only cares about race, whether racial homogony or racial diversity. This used to be a non-issue, nobody fucking cares who you marry.
Kevin Parker
>US was founded on biblical principles, not skin color
Absolutely incorrect. At its inception, the US was, practically speaking, a secular ethnostate.
Joshua Davis
>Marxists >infiltrated academia and the media and have the power to get your fired/expelled, if you deviate from their norms. Wut? I'm misunderstanding you user. People, who view media and schools as compromised by the ruling elite are somehow in control of the very same agencies of socialisation that they feel need to be reformed?
Are you saying that people that want revolution are trying to maintain the current status quo? Yep, I'm completely out of my depth here.
Ian Smith
>The U.S. was founded on biblical principles, not on skin color. If we go by the 1790 naturalization law, the US was by definition a white nationalist state.
Matthew Anderson
...
Samuel Jackson
Do you not know about Fabian socialism?
Communism failed to force its way to the west, so instead they adopt the 'boiling frog' approach. Slowly and gradually tear down the foundations of western civilization and condition people.
It's called Cultural Marxism, and it's responsible for brainwashing an entire generation of millenials in U.S. public schools and campuses.
Thomas Bennett
this.
>worker's class became >the oppressed minorities
the radical left has an entire victimhood hierarchy, and the most "privileged" and hated are White Straight Christian Males.
Jose Hernandez
>Do you not know about Fabian socialism? No, that's a new one for me. I'll have to read up on it later. > so instead they adopt the 'boiling frog' approach... Makes sense >It's called Cultural Marxism, See, you had me until that 'Cultural Marxism' thing. Too many lunatics say that and now I can't trust anyone that brings it up.
Alexander Edwards
>Fabian Socialism >Frankfurt School >Cultural Marxism Are all the same thing user. They planned this out decades ago, and we're literally watching the effects unfold before our eyes today.
James Butler
>See, you had me, until you said (insert arbitrary phrase here) because I responded emotionally instead of stopping and contemplating what was said.
I get that there are a lot of weirdos out there but don't do that.
