How come tankies shit on capitalism and defend communism to the death, but famines are a strictly commie phenomenon in the 20th century? For all USA's "faults", at least we never made propaganda saying, "REMEMBER, ITS NOT OK TO EAT YOUR CHILDREN!". I mean, if you can't even feed your people cause of your stupid central planning, and the best thing to come out of the USSR was the Tsar Bomba (a bomb that likely would have killed the pilots) and keeping severed dog heads alive, you really failed as a nation.
>famines are a strictly commie phenomenon in the 20th century Plenty of people died from malnutrition during the dust bowl, it's that Stalin wanted to be a big hero and solve the problem himself and not look like a gay boy who needed help that caused the big issue
Sorry I spilt my Wikipedia article on famines all over you're thread, I hope you forgive all these non communist famines many of which were caused by the West and others by wartime disasters and the resulting famines which occur. >Mount Lebanon famine >Famine caused by the Allied blockade of Germany >Persian famine of 1917-1918. As much as 1/4 of the population living in the north of Iran died in the famine >Rumanura famine in Ruanda-Burundi, >Famine in Morocco between 1940–48 >Famine in Warsaw Ghetto, >Famine in Greece caused by the Axis occupation. >Bengal famine of 1943 >Java under Japanese occupation >Dutch famine of 1944 >Rwanda famine of 1944 >Sahel drought >Bangladesh famine of 1974 >1998 Sudan famine >Second Congo War famine >2005–06 Niger food crisis >Famine in West Africa, brought on by the 2012 Sahel drought >Famine in Yemen, arising from the blockade of Yemen by Saudi Arabia
Mason Gutierrez
yeah and look how that turned out. Also, look at this chart of top causes of death in the US during the Great Depression and Dust Bowl. Starvation isn't even on the list inb4 "starving causes disease", "A few comments about the table. First, death due to disease generally did not increase during the period, so the researchers are not misclassifying "death due to malnutrition" to "death due to disease." Second, note that in the table they even break out diseases like Smallpox, responsible for death rates under 1 in 100,000. This generally implies that starvation would have been responsible for deaths at an equivalent or lower rate." So yeah, about as bad as smallpox, try again.
Nathan Walker
That anyone at all died of starvation in 20th century America is an indictment on it's supposed total superiority tbqh, Soviet Union had Stalin being a nigger, what the fuck is your excuse?
Elijah Rivera
How many wars was USSR involved in in 1920? Wartime famines are common throughout history, whereas commie famines just happen. What war was China involved in during the Great Leap Forward? We all know the Khmer Rogue were pushing back those dirty westerners and the Russian famine of the 1920s and 1930s were done by Nazis don't you see?
Nathan Thomas
Which is a bigger problem in the US, starving or obesity? I wait while you pick your brain up.
Isaiah Torres
Perhaps the civil war and wwi had lasting effects on the nation. Just a thought
Josiah Edwards
>How many wars was USSR involved in in 1920? Soviet-Polish War and ongoing issues in the -stans, it's probably the biggest reason the Soviets did fuck all to help Kazakhstan (which had the worst famine in the SSR's, but you probably don't care because they aren't "white") >2018 America and 1930's America are the same thing Maybe if you stopped stuffing your face with estrogen injected chicken tits you would realize America wasn't always a degenerate cesspit of fat fucks and retards
Jayden Reed
It didn't in America
Ian Sanchez
...
Elijah Wilson
And America is a different country and was in a totally different time period with totally different conditions including weather and areas where crops can be grown.
Mason Roberts
>Civil War and WW1 had no lasting impact on America economically or socially What do you even say to such a fucking spastic statement?
Carter Reyes
I love all people, that's why I want them to not starve under Commies.
Andrew Clark
I didn't say they didn't retard, but they certainly didn't produce famines.
Samuel Ramirez
Don't blame Russian famines on climate change, Bill Nye.
Jaxson Murphy
They produced local famines, which is what the Holodmor actually was, they just didn't have the advantage of freedom of movement to run away to California and pick beans
Hudson Walker
This is the absolute worst response I've seen to a post for the last week, even the Holocaust denier thread had better stormfag arguments. I think you should go back to /pol/ desu.
HA, nice revisionism. The Holodomor was more akin to the Holocaust than any famine in America. Stalin starved those Ukrainians caused he didn't like the way they looked. And you call me a racist. SHAME!
Carter Morris
Not from /pol/, I hate commies as much as nazis. Not sure which is worse.
Liam Martin
Stalin starved those Ukrainians because they fucked their own agriculture over in protest and he didn't want to ask for help to relieve them because it would make him look weak, it has nothing to do with racism, he was fucking Georgian and I didn't see the Russian SSR having those figures of deaths
Daniel Hill
>Randomly brings in climate change then suddenly forget about it >Can't see how the American and Russian civil wars were different or how different climates and styles of warfare how long the war lasts all effect the terrain and the surplus of food >Claims all famines in the 20th century were Communist >ignores kulak sabotage's their own farms >Ignores droughts The Golubev and Dronin report gives the following table of the major droughts in Russia between 1900 and 2000
Probably watches infowars and reads breitbart as well.
Carter Butler
oh yeah, he sure showed them how to do agriculture. Maybe if he wasn't so concerned about his image he would help his own people out. The USSR is a big place, I think they could have done more, unless of course the rest of the USSR was under famine, which it was.
Carter Ramirez
>and I didn't see the Russian SSR having those figures of deaths Actually, maybe a million or so Russians did starve around the same time, not at the same rate but still a lot.
Christopher Sullivan
No, the village cooperative was ingrained in Russian society since well before the Bolsheviks took power, Stolypin was the guy who tried to phase the practice out of Tsarist Russia, Ukraine was far more full of what you'd call middle class landowning farmers than anywhere else in the Soviet Union because it had far higher yields which benefited more from private farming as opposed to the Mir system en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Obshchina That's nowhere near the rate you'd expect if it was a dedicated campaign fueled by Stalin being racist
Charles Adams
Just a question, do you think that the centralized planning of the USSR made the famines better or worse? We have droughts in America all the time, someone before brought the Dust Bowl, which happened alongside the Great Depression, and you don't see the millions dead in America. Why do you think that is?
Jason Cook
Freedom of movement
Hudson Howard
Also, thanks for assuming I read breitbart and infowars, which I don't. Just like I'm sure you read Salon and the Daily Kos, but I would never put that assumption on you, commie.
Austin Fisher
Expand on that. Are you saying the Soviets didn't allow starving people to leave their famine induced hell-holes? Cause now you're making my point even stronger.
Cooper Wilson
In the Soviet Union you were assigned your collectivized farm and that was that, my contention the whole thread has only been that famines happened in capitalist countries as well and they just had better mechanisms for dealing with it than the insulatatory bullshit Mao and Stalin rolled out about not accepting any foreign aid and just hoping the whole thing goes away
Christopher Clark
>Just a question, do you think that the centralized planning of the USSR made the famines better or worse? No different, since if the White won the civil war they would of suffered famines as well. You know what happens when you have a civil war in a semi feudal shithole just after the greatest war man has ever known at that time. YOU USE UP FOOD SUPPLIES, then what happens when a drought hits???? >We have droughts in America all the time, someone before brought the Dust Bowl, which happened alongside the Great Depression, and you don't see the millions dead in America. Because it's a totally different country in a totally different time period with a totally different style of warfare and conditions you retard. If Saudi Arabia has a civil war it's going to be different in food supplies if France has one. Russia wasn't even mechanized for farming most peasants and farmers hadn't seen a tractor let alone owned one till the Soviets gave them some.
Alright, perhaps I was a little over the top about all famines being Communist. But you will agree that Capitalist were much better at solving the famines, seems like a failure of communism to me
Jacob Ortiz
>what year
Connor Parker
Yeah it is a shit map, but America and Europe were a lot more cultivated and had earlier beginnings of mechanization of Farming. I just wanted to find some basic tier farmland map
Jayden Smith
Not so much a failure of communism perse as a failure of its leadership to address a crisis, I mean later Soviet Union didn't have the same problems as they did in the 20's and 30's because they reformed how their agriculture operated
Luis Ortiz
I'm just mostly offended about how little Australian agriculture there is, half the fucking country is huge cattle stations and has been since the late 1890's
James White
I think it's modern lol.
Anyway the point I'm getting is Russia has far less arable land then America, especially right after ww1 and in the middle of a Civil war.
Sebastian Ross
You can say that, but it seems to be problem in Communist countries. Venezuela is having that same problem, right now. One of the richest countries in the world in natural resources, and there are food lines. Just sell the fucking oil and feed your people!
Jordan Barnes
Same as Argentina. It's a really shit map.
Camden Parker
It's not my fault Ruskies think you can grow crops in snow. I thought it was obvious, but I guess not.
Parker Davis
The Soviet Union had plenty of arable land. Ukraine has probably the most fertile soil in the world and the Russian Empire was the #1 exporter of wheat in the world before communism turned them into a net importer.
Venezuelan commies would love to sell their oil, problem is the government is signed up to OPEC and keeps cucking them out of their revenue for pointless shit like Russian fighter jets they'll never use
Caleb Edwards
A lot of the Civil War took place in Ukraine, hell you had a 6 way war there with Greens, Blacks, Whites, Reds, Petlyura and the German sponsored Hetman
Wyatt Rivera
Once again, leadership problems. Why aren't commie leaders answerable to anyone? Oh thats right, cause nepotism and party politics go hand and hand.
Christian Flores
>nepotism and party politics go hand and hand That can be said about a lot of states in the world today, I'd say communism and the revolving door politics of advocacy and candidacy in democratic states are eerily similar in objective, just not the results
Wyatt Watson
But you can't access it when you've just been though fucking wwi a Civil war a Drought and most of your peasants have no access to Tractors. Do you really think if the Soviets had a peaceful transfer of power the country would just explode in Famine?
The Civil War and Polish-Soviet War. The only peacetime famine in the USSR was the 1931 famine, since the 1947 one was a direct result of WW2.
Christian Roberts
I tend to agree in regards to lobbyists and I'm for term limits on all political positions, fuck Supreme Court Justices serving for life. However, I think Communism is different in that you pretty much have to toe the party line unless you want an ice-pick lobotomy. Granted we only have two major parties in America, but that keeps the balance of power in a somewhat stable position.
Aaron Baker
Then why are you okay with 3 million annual child deaths from starvation under capitalism?
Venezuelan Company Lets 55 Tons of Flour Rot >They said the move was based on a decision made by the owners of the company who left the corn flour to rot. >In addition, the workers said that this is not the first time this situation has happened, and it's not the first company to be involved in such practices
Caleb Ramirez
Central planning wasn’t the cause of the 1931 famine, but transition from private ownership to central planning, and the resulting chaos (like peasants burning their crops) did. India was at risk of several famines after independence, but a centralized grain relief network prevented them.
Jace Jenkins
Still more famines than in US. And, pray tell, what caused the 1931 famine? Was it the civil war and ww1 that happened a decade before, or the asinine idea of forced collectivization? Also, can't forget the Holodomor, Stalin's personal Holocaust.
Venezuelan oil production has been collapsing for a long time, it has nothing to do with OPEC, Venezuela is the only OPEC country failing to fulfill its quota.
It is 100% communist mismanagement.
Chavez went on national TV in 2006 blowing a whistle as a football referee and fired all the top executives of the company, accusing them of being ñart of the "capitalist elite". (No, seriously, he actually did this)
All these people with experience in the oil industry left the country, were replaced with political cronies. On top of that the payroll of PDVSA was tripled with more political appointees (friends of the regime), and the revenues were used for populist programs rather than reinvested in exploration and infraestructure. A lot also disappeared as a result of corruption, obviously.
Predictably, the company has collapsed, at the same time the rest of industry crumbled due to price controls and nationalizations.
Venezuela now produces and exports less oil than when Chavez took over. At the same time, oil was 73% of Venezuelan exports in 1999 and now it's 96% of exports, so the destruction in the other sectors of industry (due to nationalizations and price controls) was even worse.
Most "communist" parties in the modern day have shied away or disavowed the whole purge thing because they realize it's bad PR, historically they were very prone to it because of the very real threat of foreign intervention against them, if Trotsky became top dog for instance the USSR would have been destroyed by a coalition of Japan, UK, France, America and Germany simply because he was hellbent on his permanent revolution. Simililarly Kruschev wasn't going to tolerate any government with Beria as a factor because the guy was willing to compromise with the West to what he saw as the disadvantage of the Soviet Union (also he was a bit of a fuckhead so that helped)
The 1931 famine was the result of a number of factors including collectivization policies, reactions to collectivization (ie burning crops) and natural phenomena like droughts. It was in partially the fault of the Soviet government and I won’t defend their policies, but it’s not much of an argument against communism since it was a crisis specific to the conditions of Russia and the way the revolution played out. Other communists like Rosa Luxemburg predicted that they would have these problems as early as 1918, so it’s not like communists were in unanimous agreement with Bolshevik policy.
Cooper Wright
Yeah, and the Venezuelan gov gave them 85 million bones. Should have nationalized it. Problem solved right?
Colton Lee
Venezuela is not communist. They aren’t even socialist. They have markets, private ownership of the means of production, wage labour, capital accumulation and commodity production.
Jonathan Reyes
I don't really see how this refutes my point that the Venezuelan government is fucking retarded and that's why you have commies out there setting shit on fire
Bentley Perry
Well it's sure better then letting 55 tons of food rot after the owner decides he likes free markets more so he lets food go to waste along with other companies to try and force the government to open up.
William Hill
Nice meme, oil price has recovered and Venezuela is still collapsing. Oil production is on a continual slide. See >quoting a propaganda channel of the Venezuelan government >not understanding that companies hoard products because price controls force them to sell the bread at less than what the flour costs to import Fuck, you commies are really retarded.
Would you produce bread for the mandatory price of $5 if the flour to make it costs $10 to import?
Jace Williams
this, venezuelan refineries are shit nowadays and when you buy their oil you need to spend extra cash refining it
Hunter Walker
How does your article prove that capitalism starves 3 million people a year? Seems more like poor planning on the part of third world countries and tyrants stealing foreign aid from western countries. None of the countries listed in that article are in the West, who gives the most foreign aid; they're all shithole countries.
Logan Rogers
>Would you produce bread for the mandatory price of $5 if the flour to make it costs $10 to import?
So famines are only bad when commies do it but it’s okay when capitalists intentionally let food rot because it’s not profitable enough to sell it?
Ian Morgan
Yeah, that's why you nationalize companies before they fuck your economy over cause your about to fuck their business over. Simple stuff.
Ethan Roberts
>How does your article prove that capitalism starves 3 million people a year?
If you read it you would see.
>Poor nutrition causes nearly half (45%) of deaths in children under five - 3.1 million children each year.
>None of the countries listed in that article are in the West, who gives the most foreign aid; they're all shithole countries.
Yeah, countries that are dirt poor and starving under capitalism. You can’t just ignore poor capitalist countries and say capitalism doesn’t cause problems. It would be like saying that Soviet communism worked perfectly because it worked great for the party elite.
Alexander King
>>quoting a propaganda channel of the Venezuelan government Everything I don't like is propaganda >>not understanding that companies hoard products because price controls force them to sell the bread at less than what the flour costs to import Hence why they need too nationalize important industries rather then let capitalists intentionally rot food in a act of corporate sabotage to literally starve the population so the government opens up. Imagine if the majority of American food producers all decided to get rid of all worker right protections and to do so they let food rot, that's what's happened it's literally corporate espionage
Dylan Gonzalez
>Imagine if the majority of American food producers all decided to get rid of all worker right protections >Congressional Republicans approved and President Trump signed a Congressional Review Act resolution blocking the Workplace Injury and Illness recordkeeping rule, which clarifies an employer’s obligation under the Occupational Safety and Health Act to maintain accurate records of workplace injuries and illnesses Yeah, imagine that, haha
Charles Taylor
Poor nutrition = capitalism. >Sub-Saharan Africa is the region with the highest prevalence (percentage of population) of hunger. One person in four there is undernourished.
You're telling me SS Africa is capitalist? Yeah, no, they're run by autocrats and their evil kin.
Listen, dumbshit, as a result of bread scarcity the government of Venezuela nationalized bakeries. Guess what? The government coops are STILL NOT ABLE TO MAKE BREAD because the price is not profitable.
ALL of it is the government's fault. The Venezuelan government owns steel mills, cement factories, bakeries, farms, supermarkets, in every single sector they laid hands on, production has collapsed.
Price controls do not work, since the time of Roman Emperor Diocletan: Price controls = scarcity
Government meddling is to blame, I wouldn't produce at a loss, nobody wants to become intentionally poorer dumbshit, even less so the desperate people of Venezuela.
You paint them as "capitalists" when the people getting their shit taken over by the government are not just rich tycoons but also mostly middle class small business owners.
If there was a food company in America that was found out to have intentionally let 55 million tons of food go to waste to fuck up the economy, you don't think that company might face a little backlash? Maybe a Congressional hearing if they are federally funded?
Isaac Cooper
>The government coops are STILL NOT ABLE TO MAKE BREAD because the price is not profitable. >lack of profitability is somehow the fault of socialism, a system where production is not for profit >the government doing things is socialism
>Everything I don't like is propaganda No, news channels owned by a government which spread a deliberate agenda are propaganda.
>Hence why they need too nationalize important industries rather then let capitalists intentionally rot food in a act of corporate sabotage to literally starve the population so the government opens up. They did exactly that and the famine got worse.
Just roll over and let business control you since anytime you do anything to anger them they threaten to starve you and will let tons of flour and millions of eggs rot. Wow amazing it's like I'm living in a country run by the United Fruit company.
America should get into this, just get all the food producers to burn their food until the government lowers wages to Indian sweatshop tier.
Anthony Watson
American companies let food rot all the time. I work at a grocery store and we throw out dozens of perfectly good cooked chickens every day. Farmers let huge amounts of perfectly edible produce rot every year because it’s not aesthetically pleasing enough. Stores and bakeries literally fill dumpsters with bread. Literally nobody does anything about it.
>Farmers let huge amounts of perfectly edible produce rot every year American farmers are probably the biggest beneficiaries of socialist policy in the world, if they had their protections removed they'd fucking die and America would be eating Asian chicken and African fruit
James Cooper
Tell me which Sub-Saharan African countries that aren't run by tyrants are suffering from starving? Here's another one from your article, >Asia is the continent with the most hungry people - two thirds of the total. The percentage in southern Asia has fallen in recent years but in western Asia it has increased slightly.
Southern Asia has been moving toward free trade and open markets for a while now (Singapor, Vietnam), while the Western Asian countries, largely holdovers from the USSR and Islamic majority countries are suffering now.
Cooper Hall
Yet there are no famines in modern capitalist countries. It is 100% caused either by war or government meddling.
In a capitalist country, if a private company tried to boycott a government by hoarding goods, a dozen more would spring up to take advantage of the higher prices and take its place
Ryan Smith
>Socialism is when the government gives money to private business Obama corporate subsidies to Banks and other business are Socialism confirmed
Adrian King
>Singapore Are you fucking retarded? There has not been a single time in Singapore's history it wasn't free trade, its entire economy depends on it since before they were even independent
Ryan Williams
Food waste is a product of overproduction, not intentional sabotage of the market. Donate that food if you care so much about starving people, and if your job won't let you, that's a problem for them to solve.
Ian Bennett
>production is not for profit This is why your economic system has collapsed over and over again.
>Tell me which Sub-Saharan African countries that aren't run by tyrants are suffering from starving?
Being run by a tyrant doesn’t make a country not capitalist, unless you are willing to admit that the USSR wasn’t communist because it was run by tyrants?
>Southern Asia has been moving toward free trade and open markets for a while now (Singapor, Vietnam), while the Western Asian countries, largely holdovers from the USSR and Islamic majority countries are suffering now.
Those countries are still capitalist m8.
Ryan Bailey
No, Socialism is when you entirely support a business through agricultural subsidies, which is exactly what America does with its farms, internationally they would get fucking destroyed by cheaper alternatives like Australia, Vietnam, China and Malaysia
Okay so you clearly have no idea what either socialism or capitalism mean.
Socialism is an economic system characterized by social ownership of the means of production and the abolition of commodity production (production for profit), and wage labour. Subsidies are not socialism, social programs are not socialism, price controls are not socialism.
Capitalism is a system where the means of production are privately owned, production is carried out for profit rather than use, and the primary relations of labour are worker-owner.
Whether or not a society is capitalist or socialist is determined by whether or not it fits the above definitions.
Ayden Brown
People vote with their feet. Which side built a wall to try to keep their population from leaving again?
Lucas Morris
You are arguing woth two different people. Anyway, Venezuela is socialist and it's 100% a typical failure of command economies.
I’m not a tankie m8, so bitching about the USSR doesn’t really apply to me because I don’t advocate its system. Even still, the people of those countries have since realized that capitalism is not all it’s cracked up to be.
The majority of the economy in Venezuela is privately owned, the majority of workers are wage workers, and the majority of production is carried out for profit. Venezuela is not socialist.
Cameron Carter
So how the fuck were they "moving toward" free trade and open markets dickhead? >Big banks are government Suicide >Welfare is capitalist! Is that why it took determined socialist labor action to get these policies into action?
Ayden Clark
>Is that why it took determined socialist labor action to get these policies into action?
Socialists pushed for social democracy but that doesn’t make it socialism. Karl Marx wrote to Lincoln expressing his support for the Union in the civil war, but that doesn’t make abolishing slavery communist.
Leo Hughes
>Socialism is when you give farmers money and give welfare to people The absolute brainlet actually said it
Guess what Bernie Sanders isn't a Socialist since giving people free shit and corporate subsidies isn't Socialism, it's welfare capitalism.
Alexander Reed
I'll grant you that some of the worst Communist atrocities (purges, gulags,etc) were the result of tyranny more so than commie ideology. However, I still find it hard to believe that anyone would consider Sub-Saharan Africa a bastion of free markets, what with the genocide and constant tribal warfare. Tribal warfare and religious strife is more the cause of the Middle East's economic problems as well, except the petroleum oligarchs.
