How do y'all feel about strong lifts 5x5?

How do y'all feel about strong lifts 5x5?

The basic idea of lifting moderately heavy stuff for reasonable volume three days a week is fine.

The actual implementation is a clusterfuck.

I've done it since June and my lifts have gone from shit to

>3pl8 diddy
>2.5pl8 squat
>1.5pl8 bench
>1pl8 row
>0.75pl8 ohp

Best lifts I've had so far. Gained 6 pounds, which is fine because I'm just as lean as ever and don't have to worry about cutting

Blatant rip off of Starting Strength. Guy is not strong and doesn't coach anyone and just repackaged someone elses ideas to make some cash.

The program will almost certainly make a novice stronger though.

It's alright for people that are brand new to lifting. I would recommend for people to move on beyond it after a few months max to something better. People try to hold on to beginner minimalist programs for too long imo. For months my lifts were completely stalled, but I stuck with minimalist bullshit. After a while I started to do Naturally Enhanced and made the best gains of my life. Alex is kind of a meme around here but his program legitimately is phenomenal.

Yeah I started from never lifting to doing 5x5 about two months ago and have been noticing gains, plus its also nice to see the weight go up everytime, it really motivates me to go back to the gym. I am worried about stalling out eventually though.

I've always been a weak skinnyfat piece of shit with twigs for arms so I decided to start lifting, started with SL 5x5 2 months ago. I haven't missed a session since then but I can't even bench 35kg or OHP 27.5kg without failing on the last set. My other lifts aren't much better and I struggle to squat even 40kg.

Am I really just this weak? I can barely make any progress right now I've been stuck on the same weights for over a week and a half. I feel like there must be something wrong with my body.

How much are you eating?

on top of what said I think there is also something to be said that OHPs are really the most unnatural lift of the set and probably the hardest. It is probably the one were you will struggle the most, at least from my experience

You are doing something wrong: either your form or you really aren't eating enough to actually recover and build mass.

>starting with just the bar seems stupid, but when you look at the utter trash form of many people in gyms - maybe not that bad of an idea
>i think noob programmes should give suggested accessories so that noobs don't fuck it up by coming up with shit of their own - but maybe SL5X5 does that, can't remember
otherwise it's decent, SL, SS, GSLP, RP, etc. are all built on sound ideas and there really isn't that much of a difference.

noobs are shit at lifting and look like shit because they're noobs not because "hur-dur SS/SL is a meme, i've been lifting for 3 months and still look dyel" - well, no shit.

I made sick gains since I started in mid-August.
>read the SS book, and didn’t start with the bar like a retard
>Rippetoe convinced me to sub in Power Cleans for Rows
>added chin ups, dips, lying tricep extensions and curls to satisfy my ego building big arms

I deluded Power Cleans (pic related) due to form issues.

taking a good idea (SS) and making it into something worse

shit form

What program is similar to SS but better?

I started this back in January, made some good progress, however i started stalling quite soon into it and my hips were killing me from the squatting and volume of said squats.

It gave me a good starting platform to work off and give me good form. I've now bastardised it to increase my lifts each week rather than each workout and thats worked better for me. I should add i do a lot of circuit/cv work in between lift days, so its a happy medium for me now and my cv/circuits has improved massively because of it.

>bench 35kg or OHP 27.5kg
jesus christ
bait?

It's a shitty copy of SS made by a DYEL pajeet.

Maybe it's a girl.

>starting with just the bar seems stupid, but when you look at the utter trash form of many people in gyms - maybe not that bad of an idea

Nobody can really know how bad their form is until they start lifting heavy tho

Yeah, but it takes of the "gotta inflate my starting weights" factor out of the equation.

It's like SS's retarded pajeet cousin.

5x5 is a lot of volume. Fuck that

I follow Veeky Forums's Greyskull LP. Is that fine, too, anons?

>SL, SS, GSLP, RP, etc. are all built on sound ideas and there really isn't that much of a difference.
That being said, GSLP is slightly better than the other in my opinion.

>5x5 is a lot of volume. Fuck that
Not if you start with the bar, by the time you hit serious weight you should be acclimated to more volume.

>5x5 is a lot of volume
lol wut

What's wrong with the implementation?

It's a good starting routine, but it's important to note that you should run it for 6 months at most, like any beginner routine. Most people who complain about it fuck around, skip workouts, and don't bother adding weight.

If you do it properly, consistently, and nail your form, it's fine. But fuck it off after 4-6 months and move onto something with more volume like a PPL routine.

Mehdi is also fucking annoying. Just follow the routine as written, but don't listen to his used-car-salesman bullshit.

Wait, are you STILL doing it?

Assuming you haven't been fucking around and have got your lifts to decent levels (which you damn well should have done over 10 months), then stop doing it ASAP and move onto something with more volume.

A PPL routine is ideal.

It makes you strong, but not pretty.

>tfw started Meme Lifts 3 months ago
>could only bench 65lbs to start, squat 85lbs, deadlift 95 lbs and OHP the bar
>tfw benching 135lbs, squatting 185lbs, deadlifting 205lbs and OHP 85lbs
>tfw body is starting to take form
>tfw going up in weight tomorrow

I can guarantee you're not eating enough, I'm literally eating till I can't anymore and then eating some more. It works if you're doing it right

It makes you neither if you've got no strength to peak on. It's a terrible program to actually build anything.

It's a really basic, simple beginner routine, which is sort of the point. Mehdi's "It Just Works" shit can be sort of obnoxious and he's not got the credentials of someone like Rippletits but at least it's not the magic-thinking buy-my-supplements bullshit you get bombarded with elsewhere. Swapping out the power cleans makes sense and the extra volume is absolutely manageable for people who don't do other exercise.

>Swapping out the power cleans
Sacrilege

Although the amount of people who think the powerclean is a single pull from the floor to rack position is astounding.

Just stick with it brah. You will get stronger in time. Your one rep max will feel like a joke to you in year.

Keep up the good work! you're keeping up with my Ubermutt DNA (6'3 229lbs)

>I'm literally eating till I can't anymore and then eating some more.
You're either a skelly with a skelly mindset when it comes to food or you will get really frustrated once it's time to cut.

>Although...
That's exactly the point, better not to do power-cleans at all than to do them wrong. And most dyels without a coach or experienced lifter to help them will get it wrong. Nothing wrong with doing rows instead - hell, do cable rows.

I liked it when I first started, easy to track progress and very quick to do.

After 3 months I stopped, the require calories I'd have to eat was about 6000 according to 5x5, and that was too much.

Probably but I've always had a difficult fuckin time gaining any type of weight so its prolly just force of habit

Did it starting in Jan for the full duration before moving on to PHUL it was a great program for beginners you get pretty strong

Sure, but there's a funny thing that often happens:
>skellies have to force themselves to eat normal amounts of food
>tell non-skellies or fatties, "just eat as much as you can, bro"
>non-skellies and fatties get fat(er)
That's one of the reasons why a lot of people think Veeky Forums is full of shit: everyone assumes all other people are just like them. Which I guess counts as Veeky Forums being full of shit.

No OHP is just the most genuinely difficult lift, it's 100% user effort, and it primarily recruits relatively small muscles even though its technically a full body compound

Imo stuff like strong lifts is good until you can squat your bodyweight. I wouldn't recommend squatting and pulling heavy like that with that kind of volume and frequency

I'm planning to do this for like 3-4 months and then move on to something that won't make me look like a raptor.

could be a number of different things:

>not enough diet (most likely)
>not enough sleep
>not enough recovery time
>shit form

how do y'alll feel about GZCL?

Specifically doing A1B1xA2B2xx

fuck meant to say GZCLP**

>GZCL
if it's what I think it is: symmetry for the sake of making a nice infographic.

but what in specific do you take issue with

I remember thinking it's not great when I saw it, if you post it I'll be able to tell you why.

...

So basically it's:

A
>Squat 4X3, 1X3+
>Bench 3X10
>Lat Pulldown 2X15, 1X15+

B
>OHP 4X3, 1X3+
>Deadlift 3X10
>DB Row 2X15, 1X15+

C
>Bench 4X3, 1X3+
>Squat 3X10
>Lat Pulldown 2X15, 1X15+

D
>Deadlift 4X3, 1X3+
>OHP 3X10
>DB Row 2X15, 1X15+

ABxCDxx

+2.5kg per session for OHP and Bench, +5 for Squat and Deadlift.

Stall protocol is to change repXset along: 5X3>6X2>10X1>re-test>5X3 for first exercise of day, 3X10>3X8>3X6>3X10 for second, amrap sets go up to 25 for third exercise of day. Is that or am I missing something?

yeah i think you got it

you can eventually move your LPD and DBR to T2 rep schemes and add more T3 lifts (curls, facepulls, etc.) based on your goals. I also do cable crunches on OHP/DL days.

I also base my progression on my AMRAP power set. If I crank out something ridiculous like 10 reps I'll go ahead and add an extra 2.5-5 lbs. for the next week.

Lol SS is a rip off of Bill Starr.

GSLP
(you)
Objectively better because you don't waste time with your thumb up your asshole everytime you deload. AMRAP sets take care of that.
correct
It teaches you to express the strength you already have. It's a peaking protocol
Power cleans are not voodoo. Learning them without a coach won't hex your family.

>it doesn't make you stronger, it just makes you better at using your strength

Are you guys actually saying this? Are you retarded?

got a link to the Veeky Forums greyskull lp? googled it but didn't come up with anything

Thoughts on Reddit PPL? Started running it and loving the pump. Got 100kg deadie yesterday, never been so happy. I weigh 75kg, ran SL for 6 weeks but went through breakup so aesthetics not numbers is now the goal.

Yeah, it killed me and I couldn't put the work into the upper body work after. I never felt a sore chest or shoulders, it was just exhaustion. Running Reddit PPL now and I'm actually feeling the pump.

Guys I recently started deadlifting and I keep re-injuring my left lower back. its not a spine thing I dont think, I just get a sharp pain that makes it difficult to bend over. Do I stop the DL completely? stretch more?

Let's assume a noob with 1RMs in kg of about OHP 35, Bench 50, Squat 60, Deadlift 70, DB Row 20X2, LatPull 60. Which seems about typical for someone sedentary, I think.

>4X3,1X3+
Noob may have low tolerance for volume, but they tend to have even lower tolerance for intensity. Especially on less explosive lifts, where brute force rules. Sure it seems balanced by the 3X10s, but the gap between the two is simply to high for noobs. Especially on deadlifts where form is pretty much guaranteed to be shit on the 3X10. OHP for heavy triples is a recipe for disaster and not very effective at all.

Volume per week:
>DB Rows: 2240kg@60% per arm.
>LatPull: 3360kg@60%.
>Bench: 650kg@90%, 1050kg@70%. Total: 1700kg.
>OHP: 455kg@90%, 735kg@70%. Total: 1190kg.
>Squat: 780kg@90%, 1260kg@70%. Total: 2040kg.
>Deadlift: 910kg@90%, 1470kg@70%. Total: 2380kg.
No pull intensity above 60%.

Ratios:
>Horizontal push/pull: 1.31.
Should be about 1.
>Vertical push/pull: 0.35
Should be around 1.
>Squat/deadlift: 0.86.
Should be between 2 and 0.85.

Programme claims to incorporate accessories, but I don't see any core work, arm or shoulder isolation, no forearms or anything like that. Not even hamstring isolation, which admittedly is not a big problem with the low squat to dead ratio - but still a good idea. Since when are horizontal and vertical pulls considered accessories?

>ABxCDxx
Good luck doing 3X10 deads the day after 5X3 squats as a noob, or even as an intermediate.

I'd actually see a doctor. My friend who lifts had something like that, went to the doctor and basically pelvic bones or something have fused to his ribs on one side so he can't twist or lift heavy objects now.

>Horizontal push/pull: 1.31.
*Horizontal push/pull: 0.38

How can it be a ripoff when Starr explicitly endorsed what Rip was doing by writing SS, and contributed a whole bunch to the Starting Strength site before he died?

It's not like the principles Starr used were uniquely his. They were discovered by a bunch of different people in the early years of organised lifting, Starr was just the first guy to attempt to collate them.

I really hate to ask but you seem to know what you're talking about. Running a version of reddits ppl. Was wondering how you'd rate it? Current stats, for 5rm, OHP 35kg, bench 55, row 65, squat 85, deadlift 95. Bodyweight 75kg.

Running PPLRPPL. Rest day is pretty much a 9-5 day at uni then back to my mates to go out for a night out. I'm a 19YO 6' uni student. Yes diet is a problem haha. I love a drunken dominos.

Monday
Deadlifts 1x5 + (enough warmups though to really work lower back)
3xF pullups
3x8-12 dumbbell rows
5x15-20 facepulls. Have no machines so done australian row style. It works don't ask haha.
4x8-12 hammer curls
4xF chinups.

Tuesday
4x5, 1x5+ BP
3X8-12 OHP
3x8-12 incline DB press
3x8-12 band tricep pushdown ss lat raises
3x8-12 overhead tricep extensions ss lat raises (may replace w/ more band pushdowns, less damage to my elbows.)

Wednesday
3x5, 1x5+ squat
3x8-12 RDL
3X8-12 leg curl
3x8-12 leg extension
5x8-12 calf raises

Then Friday,
same as monday but swap deadlifts for
4x5,1x5+ pendlay rows

Saturday same as Tuesday but swap BP and OHP volumes.

Sunday same as Wednesday.

Core work done after every workout, mainly leg raises, flutterkicks and planks. Forearms get wrecked from deadlifts chinups and pullups.

Hows that look?

5x5 is a good amount of volume, 3x5 is retardedly low.

Honestly, I'd do GSLP or something with those stats, unless you're a woman. Especially since you're a student who probably doesn't have the best diet and drinks a decent amount. PPL can burn you out quick if you get behind on recovery, plus there simply is not much benefit over a 3day full body programme as a noob. There's a reason why those are the recommended starting point.

Otherwise Reddits PPL is pretty good for someone who is acclimated to more volume, can't fit all their full-body volume into one day without it taking +2h, and whose diet and rest are on point.

Yep, and if you start out fat you can cut and still make progress. It's all about eating the right amount.

Have to go sort some shit here but I'll be back shortly. Went through a rough breakup so it's actually more therapy for me. 1.5 hours of feeling good and not thinking about shit every day is dreams. I did run SL for a while but now I'm single my goals have changed from strength to pure aesthetics.

>my goals have changed from strength to pure aesthetics.
Still doesn't matter if there is too much volume, you're just slowing down your progress - especially with college stress, alcohol and a shit diet. Seriously: whether you're going for strength or looks (which are lot more related, or at least compatible, than most people think) diet is the number one thing. None of these workouts are that taxing, but training 6 times a week is what get's you. Plus frequency is king for noobs and you get 50% more of that on a full-body programme, anyways.

I'll try to dig up a programme I made for a friend and post it, it's a very minimalistic PPL that would be stupid to do except in your situation (noob who just wants to train 6 times a week and doesn't give a shit about time efficient workouts.)

Virtually no stress thankfully. I'm quite a high achiever so I just work away during timetabled slots and get the work done. A few days stress in January covers me haha. I only drink once a week, used to be quite heavy but I've cut back. Stopping the drunk food as well. Might actually leave steaks at my mates for me to cook drunk. Even though the Tescos is 24hr. Diets pretty good as well. I live at home and travel to uni, so breakfast is a cup of tea, 2 boiled eggs and a slice of toast. Normally have 4 chicken sandwiches for lunch with some other item, normally fruit, occasionally walkers backed crisps. Dinner is whatever my mum cooks, we haven't had a takeaway in the house since New Years. The only shit portion of my diet is not eating my healthy lunch and binning it to opt for a fry and yorkie with a bottle of coke for £5. Yes I'm retarded. I'll also have a protein shake with just a banana, ice and 40g protein powder before every workout. So my diet is pretty good. I think I'd be able to hack it, at the very least I want to run it on a 2 week trial. I work out at home, basically just barbell training so that is my limiting factor regarding training. I know I'm trying to validate myself, but I think my situation for training 6x a week is much better than people assume for a uni student. At least 6 hrs sleep overnight + 2hrs on a train. I'm trying to address the overnight sleep, it's like now where I'm shitposting at 11pm and am up at 6am. Did you find that minimalistic PPL? I had a friend who ran the reddit PPL with a worse diet than me and he's pretty jacked now.

Also pic related, why's my shoulders look so different?

Find that program?

PUSH 1
Bench Press 4X8
Lateral Raises 3X8-12
Tricep Pushdowns 2X8-12

PULL 1
Chin-ups 4XF - Lat-pulldown if under 7 reps, add weight at 12 reps
Reverse Curls 3X8-12
Face-pulls 2X12-15

LOWER 1
Front Squats 4X8
Leg Curls 3X8-12
Calf Raises 2X12-15

PUSH 2
Shoulder Press 4X8
Chest Flyes 3X8-12
Triceps Pushdowns 2X8-12

PULL 2
Cable rows - neutral grip, elbows at 45deg 4X8
Pullovers 3X8-12
Concentration Curls 2X8-12

LOWER 2
Deadlifts 2X5
Leg Extensions 3X8-12
Calf Raises 2X12-15

CORE
W. Leg-raises 2X12-15
Palloff presses 2X20-30s per side
W. hyper-extensions 2X12-12

PPLPPLx
CxCxxCx

Is that replying to me? cheers bro either way

Issue is I can't do curls due to wrist injuries - I can still do close grip chinups though. And don't have machines so anything with cables is out.

>People try to hold on to beginner minimalist programs for too long imo. For months my lifts were completely stalled, but I stuck with minimalist bullshit. After a while I started to do Naturally Enhanced and made the best gains of my life. Alex is kind of a meme around here but his program legitimately is phenomenal.
Hi Alex

VERY good advice

>no machines
You can do face-pulls by laying belly-down on a box/table/high-bench with your sternum on the edge. Or use bands.
Instead of cable-rows you can do bent-over rows or DB Rows, but the 45deg angle is important - that way it hits your mid-back more.
Side raises instead of Paloff presses. Or band Paloff presses.
Leg curls can be done by hanging from a bar and grasping the weight with your legs or replace with stiff legged deadlifts, just skip one or both sets of hyper-extensions that day if you do that.
Instead of tricep pushdowns you can do overhead triceps extensions or skull-crushers.
Instead of leg extensions you can do short stepped lunges or do it with weight between legs on bench.

If you can't do curls you should go see a doc if you haven't already, probably wise to invest in wraps. Replace reverse curls with static hangs at the end of your chin-up sets (weighted if needed.) Swap concentration curls with hammer curls if you can take them, if not - really I don't know what to tell you.

I'm going to start on sunday, not sure if I should do SS or SL. Which would you guys suggest? Also I know it's better to start with lower weight so you get used to lifting but should I start with maybe half of what I know I can lift instead?

>3x5 is retardedly low
Why? What about when you stop lifting lightweight?

My money is on the diet. Had the same problem when I started working out in my youth, totally clueless, and wondering why I wouldn't get any stronger or bigger after some point. I was just eathing way, way too little. Make an Excel sheet or get an app and rigorously trace your input each day. Chances are, you will be surprised how little nutrition you actually get.

I literally just found out about Alex this evening and I'm jumping from SL to his beginner program.
What should I expect in terms of difference in difficulty? Should I just carry over my current SL weights to Alex's shit?

The same I feel about SS. Somewhat good for 3/6 months but needs to be dumped afterwards.

Something like Ivysaur's 4-4-8 is preferable really for a beginner, more complete package.

Ah well I'm not a total noob so maybe that's it

Coming off a couple months of SS my stats are (in lbs, 3x5)

OHP 95
Bench 140
Squat 190
DL 215 (1x5)

>OHP for heavy triples is a recipe for disaster and not very effective at all.

Funny you should say that because my OHP has never been better actually.

The accessories are added in based on your personal preference, and the rowing and vertical pulls are upped to a 3x10 rep scheme after you get comfortable with them. I do 5x3 squats after 3x10 deads and have actually not really had much issue with it once I adjusted to the volume.

>The same I feel about SS. Somewhat good for 3/6 months but needs to be dumped afterwards.
>LP programmes are only useful as long as LP is in effect
No shit, Sherlock.

The problem is that too many idiots here stick with it for far too long. And like I said even for linear progression it's only somewhat good. There are better alternatives out there.

>There are better alternatives out there
Like what?

The problem with critiquing GZCLP is that it's supposed to be modified. The base program is almost never run, and it's suggested to add in T2 pulls when your conditioning is good enough. I personally add in T2 rows with T2 bench and T2 Chin-ups with my T2 OHP. I also have more T3 pulls like lat pulldowns, cable rows, and facepulls. The T3 is completely up to personal optimization, so someone can add in any of the isolation you listed. And there's also a 3 day version which is definitely better than the 4 day version.

SS and maybe some others that get tossed around and forgotten with all the meme routines shilled here constantly

>SS
Wait, I thought we were talking about alternatives to it

Different guy. I already mentioned a better alternative in Ivysaur's 4-4-8, or a more regular heavy/light push pull like WSFSB
Both will give massive strength gains as well as being more versatile and less repetitive

I personally don't mind repetitive, I just wanna get to 2/3/4/5. What do you go for after SS/SL if you wanna get there as fast as possible?

>The problem with critiquing GZCLP is that it's supposed to be modified.
Then due to that alone it's not really suited to being a raw beginner programme, the basic template has ridiculous volume ratios - in beginner programmes the template should be 80-100% of what is actually done.

TM or 5/3/1 or that cube thing, didn't look bad as far as I remember.

Yeah, I agree with that. Idk why people say it's a beginner program, it's a good program if you spent 2-3 months on something like SL, SS, or GSLP and already have some knowledge on lifting and an understanding of proper form. At that point, it's an amazing program with long term linear gains you can ride for quite a while.

Yeah, strikes me as an late-beginner/early-intermediate programme with a shit example template. The latter is probably down to what I recalled at first "meant to seem all sleek and symmetric."

I did 5x5 once. My time spent into the gym went from 1h 10 min. to 2+hrs.
Just can't fit that into my schedule

>have better lifts
>/plg/ bullies me for being weak

>2 months

its your form. Some guy who actually went to rippletit's gym showed me how to deadlift and i was able to add on 32.5lbs. just by correcting form.

Well if you don't mind repetition and just wanna hit those goals look up powerlifting periodization programs like Madcow 5x5, 5/3/1, etc.

And at some point if you can squat like 300lbs you can do something like Smolov Squat Program. Supposed to take your soul and drag you through the valley of death but add like 100lbs to your squat.

Because those are novice numbers. You are weak by general Veeky Forums standards, let alone /plg/ standards.

>Smolov Squat Program. Supposed to take your soul and drag you through the valley of death but add like 100lbs to your squat.
It's really not that bad, pretty early on it takes away your "squat dread" and polishes your form. After that it's pretty much smooth sailing.