Who had the better military? The Tang Dynasty or the Carolingian Empire?

ZeroReborn
ZeroReborn

Who had the better military? The Tang Dynasty or the Carolingian Empire?

Attached: 9ABB11BE-0079-46BF-BE8B-3F691E774207.jpg (1.1 MB, 2005x2714)

Other urls found in this thread:

encyclopedia.com/history/news-wires-white-papers-and-books/carolingian-military-machine
historum.com/speculative-history/43249-frankish-empire-vs-tang-empire.html

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

The Tang. It has a standing army.

Doesnt matter anyway, both Franks and Tang were utter shit at securing the loyalty of their people. Charlemagne's sons mangled the Empire. The Tang gave way too much power to the Jiedushi frontier generals and one of them revolted in the worst Chinese revolt in history.

Illusionz
Illusionz

Tang's standing professional army is ~500K.

Carolingian Empire could field ~30K and ~100K for theoretical max.

Lunatick
Lunatick

At the heat of things, the size grew to ~800K. As said, regional generals got too powerful and once one of them died, balance was broken and rebellion took place.

Attached: Ten-Jiedushi-of-Tang.png (249 KB, 1032x725)

Lord_Tryzalot
Lord_Tryzalot

Nigga, you serious? Early Medieval and highly decentralized state compared to the most militaristic and culturally advanced Chinese Imperial dynasty? You could have at least chosen the Byzantines.

MPmaster
MPmaster

What about military quality?

farquit
farquit

Standing professional army vs feudal lords with small retinues and unprofessional levies raised for brief campaigns.

cum2soon
cum2soon

So you’re not going to talk about logistics or military equipment? encyclopedia.com/history/news-wires-white-papers-and-books/carolingian-military-machine

iluvmen
iluvmen

Imagine the US as the Tang and the Carolingian as Iraq army.

Iraq army isn't bad at all. Its better than no-army. But falls short of US's army in numbers, training, experience, equipment, economic power, etc.

Gigastrength
Gigastrength

The Tang would dwarf it. A small regional general() from frontier of Tang would probably give hell to Carolingian armies.

Techpill
Techpill

I'd think it would go without saying that a standing professional army would have both logistical capabilities and large sources of quality equipment, but I'll give that article a read. Keep in mind when we're talking about how impressive the Carolingian Empire was, it's in comparison to its neighbors. Petty English kings, steppeniggers, and disorganized bands of Slavs make the Carolingians look quite impressive.

Skullbone
Skullbone

historum.com/speculative-history/43249-frankish-empire-vs-tang-empire.html
Old threads here.

WebTool
WebTool

Tang army was mostly cavalry to deal with Steppe tribes, their infantry were defeated by the Arabs

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

their infantry were defeated by the Arabs
Talas was fought over a span of days and was inconclusive until the Tang regulars were betrayed and surrounded by both their Karluq mercenaries and the Arabs, so this is hardly a good measure of their ability.

Poker_Star
Poker_Star

It wasn't Tang regulars but rather their allies. They were on the frontier of their expansion, so their influence was at its weakest.

King_Martha
King_Martha

Tang.

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

Tang and Carolingian were completely different level of military power.

Attached: Atlas-of-Tang唐疆變遷圖.gif (380 KB, 645x545)

Skullbone
Skullbone

What the fuck happened in 660?

eGremlin
eGremlin

Tang defeated Turkic khangate and pacified western region.

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

Subjugated the Gokturks/Turks/Xiongnu

Soft_member
Soft_member

Tang

farquit
farquit

Tang had better quality

Professional standing army versus disparate groups of feudal lords.

askme
askme

So a few battles in the 700s is a reflection of an entire military over three centuries?

CodeBuns
CodeBuns

lets get this straight
arabs btfo the tang
franks btfo the arabs
so franks>tang

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

Wrong. Only around 20% is cavalry. 10% crossbowmen, 10% archers, 60% melee infantry. That's from a Tang general's book with regards to the steppe invasions.

girlDog
girlDog

But what if it's like rock-paper-scissors?

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

Arabs only won 1 border conflict(Talas) against Tang, and that's largely due to the betrayal of Tang allied forces. It didn't really damage Sino-Arab relationship and Tang didn't lose control of western region until An-Shi rebellion.

Stupidasole
Stupidasole

During the An Shi rebellion, the Tang dynasty asked for help from the Arabs too. They sent like ~4000 men to assist Tang dynasty. Once they were successful, they were granted land/resources for colonization with the local Chinese. This was one of the first instance of permanent muslim areas

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Who had the better military? An Empire that had a state-funded standing army or the Empire where to raise a single fucking cavalryman it needs an entire village?

Attached: Frankish-Cavalryman-in-his-estate..jpg (3.85 MB, 4500x3318)

Bidwell
Bidwell

Kek
Imagine if Constantine VI had married Rotrude and then seen how ass backwards that empire was (despite larping as hard as possible)

PackManBrainlure
PackManBrainlure

FRANKED.

likme
likme

What’s up with this meme that a standing army is superior to mustering troops? Why did the Franks manage to defeat the Umayyad caliphate?

Deadlyinx
Deadlyinx

Who had the better military?
The ashanti or the ottoman empire?

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

The Byzantine Empire at the time of Charlemagne could have wrecked the Franks and wipe the floor with them, both in terms of size of land armies and navy wise, but chose not to because they were interested in building a common front against the Arabs.

takes2long
takes2long

LMAO, the Byzantines couldn’t even defeat the visigoths and the lombards. Both of which are far weaker than the Carolingian empire. What makes you think that the Byzantines could defeat them?

Techpill
Techpill

*were

King_Martha
King_Martha

it really is too bad that the byzantines were never really stable except under the few instances of a powerful emperor like Basil

idontknow
idontknow

Result: decisive Tang strategic and tactical victory

Attached: Tang-strategic-victory.png (207 KB, 1524x935)

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

That's BS tho

Neustria alone could raise 50000 calvary men.