Why did Nazis make only 2 decent aircraft in 10 years of trying?

askme
askme

Why did Nazis make only 2 decent aircraft in 10 years of trying?

Attached: Messerschmitt-Bf-109B-in-flight-profile-photograph-02[1].jpg (81 KB, 1200x886)

All urls found in this thread:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces
youtube.com/watch?v=nR0r7yrowhU
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito_operational_history
historynet.com/the-miraculous-mosquito.htm

Playboyize
Playboyize

Doesnt really matter when 99% of the time planes wont be in dogfights but instead raining hell on dug in infantry.

Techpill
Techpill

BF-109
decent
Maybe in 1940, but by 1944 when they were being shit out in the tens of thousands to zerg the enemy they were basically flying coffins for their pilots.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

The control of Tetra-Ethyl Leaded aviation gasolene by the U.S. In the 1930's and 40's non-TEL avgas engine design was a dead-end. All modern designs specified TEL. They could operate with non-Tel but at a loss of performance, say 30% and an increase in maintenance costs. The supply unreliability of German tel avgas made planning difficult, and placed German pilots at a disadvantage in combat. Same was true of Japan and Italy, only more so.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

all of their real effort went into making their saucer fleet.

hairygrape
hairygrape

where did you get this statistic

Emberburn
Emberburn

my arse

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

early war
Bf 109, Bf 110, He 111
mid-late war
Fw 190, He 219, Me 262, Do 217, Ta 152, Ar 234

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

The Germans designed all kinda excellent aircraft, the problem was;

A. they didn’t build enough of them
B. they didn’t have the pilots even if they did
C. they didn’t build a strategic bombing capability

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Evilember
Evilember

Bf-109, Ju-87, Ju-88, Fw 190.

SniperWish
SniperWish

Maybe if they focused more on Continental Strategic bombing rather than the autistic Amerikabomber projekt.

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

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Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

Wat?

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

Correct. The bongs were beholden to this as well.

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

The Nazis ran out of pilots, not serviceable aircraft.

Methshot
Methshot

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_flying_aces

looks like zerg got strong

PurpleCharger
PurpleCharger

And fuel
And ammo
And land
And time

TreeEater
TreeEater

Ernst Udet was obsesed with dive bombers and fucked up the designs. They had more than 2 good designs though.

Burnblaze
Burnblaze

I've only heard of two German planes so they must be the only good ones

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Firespawn
Firespawn

implying BF109A is the same Aircraft as BF109G

StonedTime
StonedTime

They might have had more pilots if they didn't send their best ones into combat and instead let the aces actually train the next generation of flyers.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

vid related:
youtube.com/watch?v=nR0r7yrowhU

Playboyize
Playboyize

Of those, only Bf 109 and Fw 190 were worth anything.

Bf 110
decent
please

Methshot
Methshot

How do you assess a plane's "worth"?

Emberburn
Emberburn

Do you have an assessment of the 110's operational history that shows it was sub-standard beyond whatever pitiful knowledge you have?

Answer: you don't, because it was a great night fighter, among other things

Firespawn
Firespawn

Doesnt really matter when 99% of the time planes wont be in dogfights but destroyed on the runway
Fixed

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Why are you spouting bullshit? Fuck this is such a bad board sometimes

RumChicken
RumChicken

It was absolutely garbage during BoB and had atrocious loss rates

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Ernst Udet was obsesed with dive bombers
Can you blame him?

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Stupidasole
Stupidasole

And the period from 1939-mid 1940 then 1941-1944 where it saw success?

BoB lasted for three(3) months

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

that thick accent

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Lunatick
Lunatick

Do you know anything about the late war?

The German air force wasn't even there on D-Day because they were so crippled. One scout plane flew over and that was it.

viagrandad
viagrandad

Does this relate in any way whatsoever to your claim that the majority of planes were destroyed on the runway?

Not only can you not back up your argument, you don't even know what it is!

w8t4u
w8t4u

The German air force wasn't even there on D-Day because they were so crippled. One scout plane flew over and that was it.
Do you know anything about the late war?
Do you? You're trying to tell me Jagdeschwader II and its 24 victories on the 6th of June in 1944 was just an illusion the allies came up with? Fuck's sake it's even on Wikipedia
JG 2 was the main Luftwaffe unit to see action against Allied Air Forces during the D-day landings on 6 June 1944.

massdebater
massdebater

It's a comedic attempt through manipulating another users post through the meme of "fixed" to highlight how by the late war the German air force was reduced to an ineffective force with a significant number of planes destroyed before they even got into the air.

hairygrape
hairygrape

Does it matter where the German planes were destroyed? I mean, if they were shot out of the air would that prove your point that they were superb designs?

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

A better question, why did the bongs never make any decent aircraft? All shortranged, poorly armed, difficult to upgrade, fragile in combat, poorly equipped, expensive to manufacture, difficult to maintain

LuckyDusty
LuckyDusty

Lancaster, Mosquito, Spitfire, Tempest, etc. were all excellent in their roles. In any case Britain doesn't have the inflated reputation that Germany has as a military tech innovator, so I don't think your question is very good or interesting.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Pretty sure Band of Brothers lasted for 10 weeks. 1 episode a week for 10 weeks.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

Lancaster, Mosquito, Spitfire, Tempest,
all limited in most or all of the above ways, limited versatility of use in theaters as well, so your observations aren't very good or interesting

Booteefool
Booteefool

mosquito
limited versatility of use in theaters
Are you fucking retarded?

hairygrape
hairygrape

Also, Herman Goerring:

"In 1940 I could at least fly as far as Glasgow in most of my aircraft, but not now! It makes me furious when I see the Mosquito. I turn green and yellow with envy.
The British, who can afford aluminium better than we can, knock together a beautiful wooden aircraft that every piano factory over there is building, and they give it a speed which they have now increased yet again. What do you make of that?"

Source: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Mosquito_operational_history

The mosquito was, at the time, the fastesr plane (without turbojet) in the world. It was adaptable to many different roles with great success, cheap to make and could carry extreme weights long distances for its size.
I believe it is overall the most effective WW2 bomber

JunkTop
JunkTop

Are you fucking retarded? Nobody sensible built wooden aircraft and for good reasons.

Goering definitely was a retard by the way.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

Wooden aircraft that allowed for heavier bombs, greater distances and faster speeds. Wooden aircraft that significantly reduced cost and materials were reafily available.

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Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

The Luftwaffe was simply out of range on D-Day, because any airfield in France, Netherlands, Begium has been plowed over by RAF and USAF. Even after sending 1.000 planes (of which one third crashed ...) to the western-front the ratio in the air was 50:1 Allied vs. Luftwaffe.

... and 1944 there was a massive moral and drinking problem of the German Air Force in desperation

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SniperWish
SniperWish

Nobody else agreed, other than Goering.

RavySnake
RavySnake

Goering definitely was a retard by the way.

This is your answer OP. He really fucked the German airforce hard.

SniperGod
SniperGod

Mosquito was shit then?

eGremlin
eGremlin

Things like pilot training programs, pilot rotation, operational ROEs, are completely lost on casuals.

Let them surf wiki and fap to kill totals, delving only into the most surface aspects of the air war

BunnyJinx
BunnyJinx

No sensible ww2 plane historian would ever say this

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

At least inform yourself before you post stupid shit...
And the Bf 110 was great in the early war years, it simply wasn't suited for escort missions which it had to do during the BoB (for the Bf 109 lacked the range).
The Bf 110 slaughtered bombers in the early air battles of 39-41 and did well as a night fighter too.

Sir_Gallonhead
Sir_Gallonhead

this many posts about the 110
still fail to mention its fighter-bomber capabilities that were heavily used in the east

farquit
farquit

No sensible WW2 aviation builder would consider otherwise.

takes2long
takes2long

Yet mosquitoes were built en masse and were proven to be effective. Seriously stop talking out your arse

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

They had most all of the above mentioned negatives, and nobody else agreed with your analysis. Seriously, stop talking out of your arse.

Snarelure
Snarelure

de Havilland just built almost 8000 Mosquito's as a joke dude lol
One of the dumber things I've read on Veeky Forums in a while

VisualMaster
VisualMaster

british plane designers make a two-engine fighter-bomber made out mostly of wood
somehow it's the fastest plane of its kind at the time of its deployment
exported to several countries and used until the end of the 40's

more than 70 years later
some user decides to say wooden planes were shit just to shitpost and make people mad on the internet

TechHater
TechHater

What the...
The de Havilland Mosquito, in 1941, could outmaneuver and outspeed all Luftwaffe planes at the time. It was lighter, faster and cheaper.
It's made of fucking wood, that shit could be produced by the thousands at little cost and time.
It could be used as a daytime tactical bomber, high-altitude night bomber, pathfinder, day or night fighter, fighter-bomber, intruder, maritime strike aircraft, and fast photo-reconnaissance aircraft.
German night fighters were physically incapable of intercepting them.
There is nothing the British do not have. They have the geniuses and we have the nincompoops. After the war is over I'm going to buy a British radio set – then at least I'll own something that has always worked
Say what you like about Goering mate, but the mosquito was a massive humiliation for him.

AwesomeTucker
AwesomeTucker

nobody in the aviation world other than a retarded drug addict agrees with you
70 years later you're still championing retarded drug addict's ideas

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

Ok you must be trolling by now. You haven't refuted a single point and obviously have no idea what you are talking about

Nojokur
Nojokur

drug addict
implying the hundreds of german pilots shot down while landing on their airfield and infantrymen killed by rockets and bombs aren't part of the argument
implying you have an argument at all

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

A wooden plank with guns blows the shit out of your gay metal fighters over and over again

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King_Martha
King_Martha

obviously have no idea what you are talking about
kek, neither did the entire world aviation industry apparently, although apparently the retarded drug addict did.

haveahappyday
haveahappyday

Literally where are you getting this from?
Who says the mosquito is shit, apart from yourself?

idontknow
idontknow

Literally who in the aviation industry agreed with you, and why are you so enamored of retarded drug addicts?

Playboyize
Playboyize

C. they didn’t build a strategic bombing capability

This thing was actually pretty good, but produced too littleand used in the wrong way.

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Techpill
Techpill

please type a sentence without "retarded drug addict", "aviation industry" or "aviation world" in it.

Snarelure
Snarelure

Insisting on a dive bombing ability during development was completely fucking insane

RavySnake
RavySnake

Read about things before you chat shit
historynet.com/the-miraculous-mosquito.htm

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

German night fighters were physically incapable of intercepting them.
Until the introduction of the He 219

New_Cliche
New_Cliche

That's an erroneous claim and was never proven

Spazyfool
Spazyfool

No you retard. By the end of the war they could, It's just they were never mass produced

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

Nobody in the entire aviation industry agreed with, and your only supplicant seems to be a retarded drug addict. Facts is facts.

King_Martha
King_Martha

Every other country rotated their pilots back home regularly, Thatch made ace, then was put in charge of training. Only Germany kept their pilots on the line so long.
They also had the most forgiving system of tracking kill counts and were up against Slavs.

girlDog
girlDog

This plane was such a success that the german pilots called it „Brennender Sarg“ (Burning Coffin), „Reichsfackel“ (Torch of the Empire) or „Reichsfeuerzeug“ (... lighter)

Bidwell
Bidwell

Literally every type of bomber is a burning coffin if you don't provide it with fighter escorts.

lostmypassword
lostmypassword

The He 219 was the onlypiston-enginednight fighter capable of facing the British Mosquito on equal terms, given its speed, manoeuvrability and firepower,but it never played a significant role in the war because the industry failed to make it available in sufficient numbers.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Not only slav pilots but engaged a lot of obsolete planes, too. Over half of Bubi's kills are 1940 model LaGGs.

Fuzzy_Logic
Fuzzy_Logic

Yeah, this.
But lol at 'equal terms', a fucking interceptor on equal terms with a bomber

Illusionz
Illusionz

Compare the two aircraft, they're essentially the same type, despite their classification

Raving_Cute
Raving_Cute

It's worth remembering the Finns had aces flying Brewster fucking Buffalos, which is like the biggest piece of shit in the war, the VVS wasn't particularly stellar

Booteefool
Booteefool

Say what you like about Goering mate, but the mosquito was a massive humiliation for him.
Everything from 1941 onward was a massive humiliation for Goering.

hairygrape
hairygrape

They invented jets so owned epic style I guess

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CouchChiller
CouchChiller

Where are you getting..well any info from?

RavySnake
RavySnake

Brits had them before and their engines were superior

GoogleCat
GoogleCat

Literally every type of bomber did not have the He-177's massive engine troubles.

TurtleCat
TurtleCat

Lancaster
Terrible defensive armament that they could only be used at night. The designers were dumb enough not to put ventral armament. The B-17 was superior in speed and survivability.

Mosquito
Kind of a gimmick but agreed

spitfire
good aircraft but early versions had terrible armament(either just MGs or too low cannon ammo count)

tempest
agreed

I think the guy is talking about meme Blackburn designs

Illusionz
Illusionz

At least the krauts upgraded the Bf-109 throughout the war to at least put them close to comparing to the British and American fighters that they were having trouble with. They didn't make any engine improvements to put the 109 on par with the Spitfire nor did they make any weapon improvements that could easily take down the heavy bombers that were Germanys greatest threat. However I do feel they did upgraded them enough to make them at least comparable to the P-51 and Spitfire. My point is they did a way better job adapting than did the Japanese and, dare I even mention, the Italians.

Also the Fw-190 was hands down the best Axis aircraft of the war and arguably one of the top 5 fighters of the war.

Fried_Sushi
Fried_Sushi

I think 4372388, given how he talks about "The bongs"is an /int/ style troll and has no idea about anything, and is just fishing for (you)s

Spamalot
Spamalot

First ever flying jet aircraft was German and the jet fighters fielded by Germany were faster than their British counterparts. And before you say it the lack of adequate alloys and other important materials late in the war doesn't mean the German engines weren't good designs.

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

I don't disagree however I wouldn't say the Lancasters defensive armament was terrible. Just too focused on defending the aircraft from attacks from the front, rear and above. Yes those were the most likely to be attacked but as im sure we'll agree, waist and belly guns are important especially in such large formations to put more fire on the enemy from every angle.
Also I do believe it had a speed advantage over the B-17 but don't quote me on that.

Ignoramus
Ignoramus

t. history channel pro

Illusionz
Illusionz

t. Hearts of Iron IV pro

Flameblow
Flameblow

Have you more examples of allied or Axis Airplanes from this Source? Almost had a thing for the early minor-axis Planes.

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Emberfire
Emberfire

Just looked it up and according to a website dedicated to comparing military aircraft and the Lancaster Mk.I had the exact same speed as the B-17G.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

de Havilland just built almost 8000 Mosquito's as a joke dude lol
Why not? They did it with the tanks, many thousands of those built as a joke dude lol

Booteefool
Booteefool

You're retarded.

Agree

It was trash from the battle of France. It was only a "good" night fighter because nothing else was ready when it was, just like the Defiant.

BoB lasted for three(3) months
wrong

It was a beautiful plane, but don't get carried away.
I believe it is overall the most effective WW2 bomber
Going by the definition, I'll have to say the B29 was the most effective.
Then, of course, all large bombers.

The Bf 110 slaughtered bombers in the early air battles
maybe you'll want to check what kind of bombers it shot down (pic related)

Would you call it more successful as a fighter bomber than an IL2, for instance?

strategic bombing capability
2 engines
retard alert

fucking wood, it burns without leaving traces

How come there is enough place inside a Brit to have so much of shit and himself at the same time? Oh wait

implying Japan didn't make the aeronautic progress of two Germanys from 1937 on

But it was ugly as a pot of tea. B17 are pretty, like a bald eagle.

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Carnalpleasure
Carnalpleasure

hurr durr I'll answer everyone and pretend I know what I'm talking about
And you're the retard actually, the He 177 had four engines (in two nacelles)

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Yes, but the point of having four engines is really to avoid having the propulsion of one wing being shot in one go, isn't it?

eGremlin
eGremlin

implying Japan didn't make the aeronautic progress of two Germanys from 1937 on

Are you on crack? The IJAAF barely improved any of their fighters throughout the war. All they did was beef up the armament and add things that were standard in other air forces, such as armored head rests and self sealing fuel tanks. The IJNAS didn't do anything to the Zero that made it a more capable fighter and they could never replace the D3A1 and B6N in suitable numbers. Not like it mattered anyway because most of their carrier force was at the bottom of the ocean less than one year into the Pacific War.

The only aircraft capable of standing up to the Americans were the Ki-84 and N1K2-Ja. Both were excellent fighters capable of matching the Corsair, Hellcat and Mustang but came too late and in too few numbers to make a difference.

But regardless of how their aircraft had light armament until 44, lack of protection for the pilot and the unmatchefd ability to burst into flames after taking minimal damage, where the Japanese really failed was in their powerplants. The only Jap plane that even came close to having a good engine for when it was produced was the Ki-61, which just used a licensed copy of the Bf-109's engine.

WebTool
WebTool

They are such uggos that they are cute again

TalkBomber
TalkBomber

Not him, but no. The point of 4 engines is to simply provide more lift, which means you can carry a heavier load. More bombs= More blow up target.

Boy_vs_Girl
Boy_vs_Girl

He had an IQ of 130+, literally the cream of the crop in terms of human ability... He is still human and probably made mistakes. But if he is a retard then I hate to think of what most of humanity would be classed as.

hairygrape
hairygrape

early war
no Ju-87
Bitch

Flameblow
Flameblow

more engines more lift
No. More engines produces more thrust, which can haul a bigger aircraft, which has a higher payload. The engines do not produce lift.

SniperWish
SniperWish

Mea culpa. You're right of course.

StonedTime
StonedTime

what is the Mosquito

BinaryMan
BinaryMan

And dramatically increases the survival rate over enemy territory. When Galland said they needed quadris, he was not complaining about the payload bi-engines could deliver.

But regardless of how their aircraft had light armament until 44
Zeros had two 20 mm from the first version on, you idiot. That's not something the Brits could say, for instance.

Stark_Naked
Stark_Naked

The IL-2 is a dedicated attacker plane.
The Bf-110 was not designed especially for ground attack, however the onboard armament and the payload it could carry (2x 500/200 + 4x 50 kg, 20mm or 37mm gunpods), rear gunner, who could reload the cannons as well as a separate engine to limp back home with if stuff goes wrong makes it a pretty good ground attack plane.

Crazy_Nice
Crazy_Nice

Saying British bombers are ugly is like saying water is wet.

Dreamworx
Dreamworx

Because you only know 2 of them.

A larger list for you:
Do-17
Bf-109
FW-190
Bf-110
Ju-87
Ju-88
Fi-156
He-111
Ju-52
Do-210
Fw-189
Me 210
Do 335
Me 262

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girlDog
girlDog

That would have made sure that people were better trained but it wouldn't have changed their general pilot shortage. They needed those aces at the front.

What people don't get is that the strategic situation Germany faced was significantly different from that of the Allies. If Germany had fought in the same way the Allies did they would have lost even sooner.

happy_sad
happy_sad

then russians are zergs isnt it?

SomethingNew
SomethingNew

Do-17
It was practically obsolete by the Battle of Britain.
Ju-52 may be mythical but it's the slowest transport plane of WW2.

takes2long
takes2long

They also had the most forgiving system of tracking kill counts
Actually, their system was less forgiving because they didn't credit shared victories and required multiple witnesses.

hairygrape
hairygrape

and were up against Slavs.
spanish civil war, then invasion of france and poland, then battle of britain, and pretty much everything against the Brits and U.S. over Europe. There was a LOT of fighting non-slavs. Then they fought the slavs as well on top of all that.

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Techpill
Techpill

To be fair: there are plenty of German Aces who scored more than 100 victories in the west - Adolf Galland for example, who later became general of fighters.

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Emberfire
Emberfire

Well I never said they didn't exist (Joachim Marseille for e.g). Should've clarified I had Eastern Front aces in mind. I also like the handbook that Galland made for newer pilots.

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Firespawn
Firespawn

nor did they make any weapon improvements that could easily take down the heavy bombers that were Germanys greatest threat
I would say that's demanding a bit much, as nobody had weapons that could "easily" take down heavy bombers at that point. They most definitely made a lot of improvements to their aircraft to deal with the situation though, e.g. use of heavy cannons.

BlogWobbles
BlogWobbles

???

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eGremlin
eGremlin

They didn't make any engine improvements to put the 109 on par with the Spitfire

What is the Bf-109 K

nor did they make any weapon improvements that could easily take down the heavy bombers that were Germanys greatest threat

What is the Mk-108 motor-cannon
What are gunpods

However, that's closer to "easier" than "easily".

Techpill
Techpill

But it IS wet

Sharpcharm
Sharpcharm

Sure, so we can check the ace records before and after Barbarossa. You can do it, because I'm lazy, but it's obvious that the guy you replied to is right. During BoF, Mölders, the top German ace had 37 victories (25 in Spain).

Nude_Bikergirl
Nude_Bikergirl

Mölders had 68 by the time Barbarossa started, and only got to 101 on the eastern front before dying, so for him it was mostly Spain, France and the battle of Britain that his kills came from.

Most of the Soviet aircraft were initially destroyed on the ground, and Luftwaffe didn't count these as aerial victories.
Soviets also conducted literal suicide bomber attacks during the 1941 - sending in unaccompanied bombers to hit German tanks - which surely didn't help.

"were up against slavs" is just an extra on top of all the other things the Luftwaffe was up to.

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