The Vegan Question

Why is the vegan debate so fucking contentious? There's not much to it.

1. Health: Having a moderate diet of meat in your diet is fine and great for gains. Obviously, an absurd excess of red meat is not a good idea. Too much of anything is bad. Everything in moderation, folks. Being vegan is fine too, although, you might have to monitor and/or supplement your protein intake to ensure you are getting a proper amino acid profile. Your overall diet quality (avoiding sugars, alcohol, processed shit...etc.) is a much better predictor of health and longevity.

2. Morality: Any rational person can agree that the industrial animal farming industry is needlessly cruel at times and an unfortunate byproduct of farmers trying to maximize profits. I believe this problem is on it's way out as we progress in making lab-grown meat more efficiently and public disdain for industrial agriculture intensifies. As for hunting, killing overpopulated animals for food is perfectly fine. If you think all hunting is bad, please educate yourself on environmental management.

Inb4 le enlightened centrist, this is just practicing common sense if you stop and think about it instead of feverishly attacking people who have a different lifestyle than you. Why is this even a debate?

Case closed.

Other urls found in this thread:

bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-39593405/man-wrestles-knife-from-attacker-on-london-bus
suppversity.blogspot.de/2015/05/fresh-red-meat-acquitted.html
suppversity.blogspot.de/2012/04/meaty-gritty-on-red-meat-debate.html
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

didn't read but I'll sage anyway lmao

You don't understand anything about nutrition and health

Considering I work in the ER, I would say that I do. But instead of just telling me I'm wrong, give me some actual critique. What do I "not understand"?

First of all nobody here seems to know the difference between 'VEGAN' and 'STRICT VEGETARIANISM'.

'VEGAN' is an entire *lifestyle* which includes not buying or using anything that even remotely has an animal origin. It *includes*, therefore, a *strict vegetarian diet*, but as you can see it's much more than that. Because of this 'veganism' is virtually a *cult*.

'STRICT VEGETARIANISM' is precisely that: you do not eat anything that came from an animal, plain and simple. Otherwise live however you want.

For the most part, I think that 99 out of 100 threads on Veeky Forums that promote Veganism are troll-meme threads, simply because the differences I outlined above polarize people so much. However we have to refute and fight them anyway, because so many anons of Veeky Forums are young and/or gullible and might actually get talked into Veganism nonsense, damaging their health and their lives.

If I had my way threads like Vegan threads would be strictly outlawed, along with so many other retarded troll-meme threads. But even if Veeky Forums admins went along with that, it's an endless game of Whack-a-Mole trying to enforce it, and there aren't enough Mods around to do it anyway.

1. The problem is most people are either vegan or overconsume the fuck out of animal products. Occasionally eating it is fine, but the bulk of your diet should absolutely be fruits and vegetables + legumes.

2. Morality is a meme

It’s funny that the vegan is like 2-3% BF above the meat eater.

Are you a nurse or doctor?

>Morality is a meme

CRNA (Nurse Anesthetist)

What has ER got to do with health and nutrition, most medical professionals i work along are fat and know nothing of proper diet.

The fact you work in ER and not a trained nutritionist means fuck all for your credentials.

It means I have at least a basic working knowledge of how the human body works, considerably more than the average person. Obviously, not to the extent of a nutritionist - I never claimed that.

Also, this is not even addressing the original post.

Just looked this up and found that the mean salary for CRNAs is 160k. Can you confirm if true?

t. lost college bro looking for good career

I don't lift (came here for fat hate thread) but after going vegan a few years ago the only differences I noticed were

pros:
>get excellent skin, acne dissappeared
>better digestion, get sick less
>reduced fat on face/improved face
cons
>had to start eating more to avoid becoming lanklet (this might be due to a growth spurt which happened at roughly the same time)

Overall for none lifting health veganism does definitely seem like the better option but neither makes you superhuman

Also as soon as lab grown meat/eggs/milk gets cheaper people will unironically look back at factory farming as we do at slavery.

Screenshot this for 100 years time.

Everyone knows it's disturbing but turns a blind eye because it tastes nice. Same thing will happen with chink sweatshops when robots are made which can do it cheaper.

> If you think all hunting is bad, please educate yourself on environmental management.
You mean strategically keeping certain animal populations dependent on human interference so that hunters can maintain their hunting season every year under the guise of protecting the environment?

If you're talking about OP pic, they're both vegan

This. Life has continually survived and evolved for nearly 4 billion years without environmental management

Oh well that’s pretty rad then.

Nice morality arguement. I love that you describe factory farmed meat as negative, and then say hunting and population control is fine.

Alright I agree but I'm sure 99% of meat consumed from Veeky Forums is factory farmed shit.

Vegan phd here,

1. no one knows what "moderate" meat intake is. Moderate intake, if you want that to mean the intake at which there are no measurable health risks- is about 2 servings of fish per week. Even at levels of 2 servings of non-fish meat per month increase risk of diabetes.

2. Vegans don't need to supplement with protein because protein is literally in every vegan food. So long as you are getting enough calories- you are getting enough protein. If you pick only whole foods- it is impossible to design a diet that is sufficient in calories and deficient in protein. There's no need to combine proteins to form "complete proteins".

3. Most marketing labels such as "grass fed" and "cage free" are misleading and do not in fact improve the quality of life for animals within animal agriculture. Lab meat is a step up from that. Most vegans prefer the switch to lab grown meat since it will significantly reduce the number of animals being raised and slaughtered for food. However, given current practices, lab meat isn't vegan. Labs will still have to harvest parts from animals- usually stem cells, embryos, eggs, and semen so far as I'm aware.

4. the real problem vegans have with hunting is that you can get all of the food and calories you need from plants- so you're needlessly killing animals. Hunting is a problem not because people are merely culling animal populations to prevent the collapse of ecosystems. Hunting stocks are bread and increased/kept at unnecessarily high numbers to procure money from hunting licenses. This is the very definition of exploiting animals for money and entertainment. There are alternatives to population control that don't involve hunting- castration and sterilization, for instance.

Your problem isn't that you're a centrist. Your problem is that you're retarded and lack basic understanding of this subject.

Extreme doubt
People still raise gardens despite modern farming
Why wouldn't they raise livestock?
It's a hobby for some, and it can make money regardless of lab grown meat existing because "farm raised" will turn into a selling point. People don't even eat gmos now, why would they switch to lab grown meat?

You're fucking idiots.
Niggers are poaching tons of animals to extinction. Wildlife reserves dont operate for free. Rich people pay to hunt animals that are sick or past their reproductive age. That money goes directly towards conservation of animals that niggers keep killing for chinks to get their peckers hard. Yeah animals have existed for millions of years without human intervention, which is why niggers with guns has such a dramatic effect on them. You don't give two fucks about animals going extinct, when's the last time you participated in a conservation effort?

OP's talking about people hunting domestic animals for food, you're talking about people hunting exotic animals for trophies

The dnrin America tracks and issues hunting licences based on population. They don't capture and breed animals to release, they simply don't have the money for it.
Unless you're talking about game farms, but you're getting into commie territory of you want to control peoples freedom on their land

Deer and duck aren't exotic m8, but point taken. Without raising cows for meat they would likely go extinct

So you were saying that rich people are paying to hunt sick deer in the US? As I understood it, it's mostly low and middle class people looking for the strongest, highest-point bucks to shoot.

>poaching in africa justifies hunting in america

>That money goes directly towards conservation of animals
So contract killing is fine as long as i donate the payment to murder prevention charities?

>You don't give two fucks about animals going extinct
You're damn right I don't. Let nature run it's course. Doesn't mean it's moral to kill.

That's correct.

Although I work PRN 20-30 hours/week and make ~$90k. I'm a simple guy and with minimal costs of living so no need to stress myself out working 40+ hours a week for even more money that I don't need. I have way more than I need and a very comfy life as is.

Oooohhh nice middle school bumper sticker argument.
Buying deer tags funds conservation in America. Also if you weren't retarded you'd know wolves and Indians have been hunting deer for milleniums. Their population would explode without predation and then they'd spread disease and die anyways. The only counter to that would be reintroducing wolves, but soccer mom's wouldn't let that happens. Any and all hunting provides more towards conservation than you ever will, your opinion on it is next to irrelevant.

> Also if you weren't retarded you'd know wolves and Indians have been hunting deer for milleniums.
Both killed by the people you claim are concerned with the ecosystem

It's immoral to hunt animals for conservation but it's moral to let niggers hunt them to extinction?
You argue like a child. Do you not know what deer licences are? Duck stamps? Conservation grounds funded by hunting clubs? Since America uses the same system as African reserves, yes it is applicable.

These threads are mostly vegans trying to convert people to veganism and ''carnies''(or how the fuck they call them) retaliating .The centrinsts dont give a fuck

Really, modern hunters are responsible for the unforeseeable exchange of diseases between the new and old worlds responsible for the demise of native americans? And I don't see Americans hunting wolves to extinction like niggers and lions. Just admit you have no argument about hunting being bad aside from
>le edgy idc about the environment if it's niggers doing the destruction

Wrong it's mostly me defending hunting from ignorant retards that only care about the environment when it serves their vegan argument.

I was disagreeing with
>Inb4 le enlightened centrist, this is just practicing common sense if you stop and think about it instead of feverishly attacking people who have a different lifestyle than you. Why is this even a debate?
I didnt said a thing about hunting

It was stupid of you to bring up native americans in the first place but even stupider to think they weren't involved in any wars or battles, just that they got sick and died.
You also brought up poaching in Africa, I guess to use as a strawman, as if it had any relevance to what the thread is discussing. Your only argument has been "niggers do it worse" like a little kid trying to get out of trouble.

>~le vegan roider vs ~le carnivorous roider

ok, now put a natty vegan without ANY supplements vs a natty carnivorous without ANY supplements

No I know I'm just saying if antibodies a tryhard faggot here it's me. Anti hunters are sub human

But I didnt fucking said anything about hunting
Do you own thing idc

>So you were saying that rich people are paying to hunt sick deer in the US? As I understood it, it's mostly low and middle class people looking for the strongest, highest-point bucks to shoot.
You don't know many rich people huh? They usually have mancaves covered in trophies and game. The poorer people might have a deer mounted but they usually can't afford trohy hunting. Regardless they all help conservation so what's your dis? You literally have no argument against hunting you dumb fuck. It's good for African animals survival, it's good for American animals survival, it's good in general when it's controlled instead of niggers just poaching

You're just arguing against things I'm not advocating. I'm telling you it's always immoral to kill. Surely even for someone as retarded as you, that's understandable?

>always immoral to kill
Yeah that's stupid. Immoral to kill someone attacking you? Nope. Immoral to kill for food? Nope. Plants are shown to respond to damage, they can feel pain in a way. Is it immoral to eat them? Nope.
We're you raised by a single mom? It's the circle of life dummy

Mainly talking about animal factory farms.
>Why wouldn't they raise livestock?
Some people will but it will be barely anyone if it's significantly more expensive and doesn't taste as good. I don't know anyone who raises and kills their own animals for food despite it being the most ethical way of doing it, and obviously lab meat will get rid of anyone doing it because of muh ethics.

Eventually killing animals will be looked at by the average person the same way as hunting non pest animals and not eating them is now.

>the same way as hunting non pest animals and not eating them is now.
Your liberal bubble is showing.

I'm in the uk and this is a very common opinion. There's always a massive shitstorm about fox hunts every so often and even on the "conservative" newspapaer websites most people are against it.

I'd be fucking amazed if apart from the TRULY rural and suburban retards this wasn't the same opinion with most the us

That country was already niggerazed and pussified.What do you expect?

t. drumpftard

>is libtard
>in theory hate stereotypes
>make fun of the stereotypes of his ''haters''
Nice hypocrisy m8
>

Why do drunguses have such thin skin?

>best post ever made on the topic
>immediate shit flinging replies
Why do I still come here?

>That country was already niggerazed and pussified.What do you expect?
What sort of intelligent response did you expect to that?

>Obviously, an absurd excess of red meat is not a good idea.

Says the guy who posts on a board that literally fetishizes high fat high meat diets.
Honestly some people like OP just pretend to be retarded.
There's a new fad going around that's even worse than keto, it's called zerocarb, carnivore diets. These fads won't go away, so it's not "obvious" which is better.

>I'd be fucking amazed
Then you would be amazed.

Last report from the department of the interior estimated that 102 million americans either went fishing or hunting in 2016. About 40% of the country's population.

I specifically said and killing and NOT eating them.

All you vegans can shut everyone up right by posting your amazing physique that you maintain with straight veggies. For real, timestamp and show pics. That's all that matters. But you guys won't do it because you all look like skeletons.

This is a fitness board about putting on mass abd toy guys spam thus board up auth this nonsense perpetuating the stereotype that people like you are pretentious and just want to yell and scream at everyone. I guarantee you these threads have thr opposite effect you intend abd you push people away from this cult you partake in.

Show me some acts of national bravery(recent,not done by military/official/police etc.) I guess

>posts physique
"LMAO ROIDS"

bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-39593405/man-wrestles-knife-from-attacker-on-london-bus

Reminder that 9/11 was carried out with stanley knives and without guns, despite there being over 50 americans in the plane.

That's your excuse? That you're so big and impressive people will say you're on roids? Gear is easy to spot, if you're on them people can tell regardless of your diet.

Im serious, post a timestamped pic and show you aren't a skelly. You will never do it because it's true.

Holy shit I these kinds of posts are hilarious.
Vegans are douches but guys who go on powertrips and preach about hating vegans are even more so.

Not him and I don't lift (my first post ) but me and my brother are both much bigger than the average normalfag and vegetarians since birth, I've been vegan a few years and brother since 14.

I'm 6'5" (admittedly not "wide" but not a lanklet) and my brother is 6'7" and just all round massive. It is definitely harder to maintain weight but you can get around it by just eating more, not gonna comment on muscle building for obvious reasons though.

Who's preaching and hating vegans? I have vegan friends and they're great people... that said, they are all 140lbs and could never keep up with what the users of this forum do by eating meat. Obviously my request will never come through because they're all skeletons abd would get laughed at on this board.

I ask again, post pics with a timestamp. I bet you guys arent even average skinny fat, just skinny and that's it. I'll stfu abd admit I'm wrong when i see it. Its 2017, we all have smart phones.... vegans, go take a pic of yourself right more and post it.


***crickets***

Then post pics man. You say you aren't a lanklet, prove it. Im not being a dick about this, i really want to see. I guarantee you're a straight line from your armpits to your waist and have next to no mass anywhere else. You just live in your own skin abd habe good self esteem and don't see yourself like that, abd that's good, but doesn't make it reality.

Don't forget the timestamp.

His name was never Drumpf.

>I guarantee you're a straight line from your armpits to your waist and have next to no mass anywhere else.
Yeah I am, I don't lift at all. No one looks like what you're describing without exercise, (going by the results from "avergae physique" on google images)

italian pasta diarrhea

Good, so we covered that, the baseline for vegans is no mass at all. Tons of meat eaters have tons of mass without lifting weights, we all know those guys. Even lifting you won't get far.

Are there any other vegans in the house and would you please shut me up for good and post a timestamped photo of your physique?

theres no natty vegans with good physiques, all those vegan posterboys like op pic are roiding, one is a fucking IFBB pro or aspiring to.

>No one looks like what you're describing without exercise, (going by the results from "avergae physique" on google images)
Read this again. In my shared house one is wide/bulky, one is a lanklet and the other is similar to me but shorter. No one seems to look fit without training.

>He's never seen Nether Beast and the power of a vegan diet, fasting, a decalcified pineal gland and daily coffee enemas.

You could be so much more bro. Take the Nether pill.

he isn't natty though and his new channel just shows me how he's doing it for the money with the channeling thing on how his "other" self was after him or some shit

>he isn't natty though
What? I hadn't heard that. How do you know?

So what youre saying is that between all the vegans here that spam up a board dedicated to bodybuilding and gaining lean muscle telling everyone they can still easily put on mass as a vegan, not a single one of you has even a half decent, non skelly body they will post with a timestamp.

Abd you're wrong, lots of dudes that don't lift are strong as all fuck from their jobs. Maybe you live in Seattle or something but here in the Midwest, men eat and work hard abd are built dudes no one is picking a fight with.

Timestamp pics or this thread is officially defeated and dead. Again.

>Guy that only has a job if you're sick and need medical attention tells you to eat meat

Eat meat goyim.

Not gonna comment on muscle building since I haven't done it. It is definitely possible to look "normal" just by eating a lot, although I'm gonna fully admit if you don't you will become a lanklet. I highly doubt it's bad for growth or me/my brother wouldn't be much taller than the average person.

>Abd you're wrong
That pic is the average body by country, and doesn't fit what you're describing at all. You're just out of touch with what people actually look like, I used to go to a school on top of a big hill and most people had to stop half way up to take breath for fucks sake.

>lots of dudes that don't lift are strong as all fuck from their jobs
I'm in a "university town" so don't really see this.

He sounds like he has cancer and he has the same facial ticks Big Lenny has.

That's cool man, only point I'm making is the one you just made for me. "I admit you'll be a lanklet without eating a ton".
Why did you think that is? It's because you don't have the necessary tools to build muscle like the average guy that eats dead animals. We get fat, sure, but our lean body mass will destroy a vegans. , there's just fat too. That's the whole point.... being a vegan is NO COMPARISON to bring a meat eater when it comes to adding muscle. It just isn't. Its nonsense to say otherwise.

That said you're the only non tard vegan in here abd i enjoyed our debate.

>Why did you think that is?
I half thought it was because I had a growth spurt/started doing a ridiculous amount of cycling (I'm a food courier part time) at roughly the same time since the only major change to my diet was soy milk replacing cow milk. Although half of me suspects it's indeed because of veganism.

> being a vegan is NO COMPARISON to bring a meat eater when it comes to adding muscle
Just curious since I don't really know much about nutrition, why actually is this/why doesn't it apply to normal growth?

I'd love to know the answer to that but i just don't. Proteins and amino acids might not have a huge impact on how your skeleton grows. I do know that you do not get complete proteins and full amino chains never eating meat. I have a vegan friend who is 6'4" so i know it does happen that they end up tall... just have no meat on the bones. Its literally 100% of vegans i know. I end up at potlucks (pitch ins where we all bring food) with tons of vegans abd only eat vegan food and every single one of them is a skelly. Its why i find these threads so frustrating, its so dishonest to tell guys being vegan won't effect muscle growth. Its just total and complete nonsense and it's exactly why no one posts pics of themselves in these threads.

Ahhh ok

Also I'm sure you're already aware of this but most people 6'3" (doctor measured, not the meme height everyone lies about) and above start looking a bit odd and by 6'6"+ almost all the time start looking seriously deformed. Might explain a few of them if by some weird coincidence they're all tall.

I admit the only male vegans I know are my family (average female 6', average male 6'6") with most of them not looking deformed/going full lanklet but I expect this is down to very lucky genetics. Never actually seen a size/build male vegan irl.

>Never actually seen a size/build male vegan irl.
Meant "average size"

By and large I agree with you. No serious study has vindicated true veganism. Even lightly processed red meat (not sure what all that includes honestly) has been redeemed in recent studies.

The only thing I'd add to this post as far as morality is that we need to re-normalize eating offal. There's no point in animals dying for food if you throw away half the edible mass of the animal. Pic related, I fucking love liver.

sources: suppversity.blogspot.de/2015/05/fresh-red-meat-acquitted.html

suppversity.blogspot.de/2012/04/meaty-gritty-on-red-meat-debate.html

gorillas don't eat a lot of meat and they're super buff, due to being not natty

Fine, I'll restate then: It's always immoral to kill without reason.
Animals aren't slaughtered for food because they attacked you.
Yes, it is immoral to kill animals for food when you can easily find plant-based foods
Pain is not a reasonable measure for value of life. It's not moral to kill a man in a coma because he's sentient.

>what does a professional and academic background in biology have to do with health and nutrition?

Is that a self portrait?

derp I forgot my pic

they literally have to eat all day, though

I'm happy for you user